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Seraphan

Posted: 21 Sep 2009 23:03
by E. LeGuille
Noticed your Batou avatar, and just had to congratulate you on taste.

Ghost in the Shell's Batou, is the best. I prefer Motoko at times, I think it's a toss up between him and her as characters. He really does remind me of Duke Nukem :p. 1995's original movie was probably my favorite of them all. Have you seen the new Solid State Society movie?

Re: Seraphan

Posted: 22 Sep 2009 07:11
by Seraphan
I havent yet because i havent finished watching the Stand Alone Complex series, i love the two movies and the new version of the first as well. I've also read the manga and tried reading Man-Machine Interface but, at least in the first bits, it's just filled with technobabble that passes right over me and when there are pages filled with it, it puts me off.

Re: Seraphan

Posted: 22 Sep 2009 07:22
by Redstar
(Jumping into this thread feels weird...)

I've watched nearly the entire Stand-Alone Complex season, save a few episodes here and there... Mostly drawn in by the constant Salinger references, even though the basic premise of the series disgusts me. Seen a bit of 2nd Gig, but I had to wait until the airings started over so I could watch from the beginning. So far the only improvement from the first season are the return of the Tachikomas and that Major is no longer constantly in a thigh-popping one-piece.

Have yet to watch the films.

Re: Seraphan

Posted: 22 Sep 2009 11:28
by SandRider
y'all are talking about Japanese cartoons, right ?

{not making fun here, just trying to keep up ....}

Re: Seraphan

Posted: 22 Sep 2009 11:40
by Seraphan
Yep, except these are actually good and not the masturbatory crap that floods the market.

Re: Seraphan

Posted: 22 Sep 2009 13:14
by SandChigger
Redstar wrote:even though the basic premise of the series disgusts me

Clarify?

Re: Seraphan

Posted: 22 Sep 2009 15:21
by Apjak
Just gotta post here quickly about does anyone else (who has seen the Ghost in the Shell film) notice how much stylistically, not just thematically the Matrix borrowed from it.

Re: Seraphan

Posted: 22 Sep 2009 17:34
by Redstar
SandChigger wrote:
Redstar wrote:even though the basic premise of the series disgusts me

Clarify?

Some people have cybernetics, which is okay, but other people have "fully-body transplants", which is when they replace their entire body, brain and all, with a robot for either medical or personal reasons. These people are still treated as humans, which I don't understand how their past sets them apart from other robots that have AI, but weren't humans. (Though I suppose the constant use of the word "ghost" implies a soul is still present, somehow, but that must be explained in the films/manga)

Apjak wrote:Just gotta post here quickly about does anyone else (who has seen the Ghost in the Shell film) notice how much stylistically, not just thematically the Matrix borrowed from it.

From what I read the Wachowskis approached the film studio with a copy of the Ghost in the Shell manga and said "We want to make a movie version of this." I'd have to say that the Matrix is arguably either the most blatant rip-off in movies today, or just simply a poor mash-up of several sources.

Re: Seraphan

Posted: 22 Sep 2009 17:43
by Seraphan
Ghosts are, what i see as, the cybernetic version of what in your human brain is responsible for your personality.

Re: Seraphan

Posted: 22 Sep 2009 18:49
by E. LeGuille
Ghosts are supposed to be the personality, or complex idiosyncratic things made up a personality. It's often viewed that those, like Section. 9, who have full body transplants like Kusanagi, are invaluable, because they do not only exist on the human world, but also as a personality among the 'Net. The whole problem with this, though, is that if you watch 2nd Gig, you realize that Kusanagi is rare, as is her counterpart, because they were full-body transplants at a very young age. Kusangi isat rare because since she was one of the first, she kept her old full-body doll. She has several, several of these dolls around, and the fact that in essence, she cannot die since she lives among the 'Net, and among humans physically, and digitally. Cybernetic enhancements bring along a whole different realm of elitism, and racism, and the show, while showing in "The Laughing Man" campaign, shows that everything can be manipulated somehow by something, "Stand Alone Complex" shows us that the theory of individualism still generates a group think, and it is revealed much later that some things that are planted among the internet, are not always what we think they are. I don't want to ruin too much of SAC, but the Individual 11 exist due to a malfunction, and a pre-existant condition.

Re: Seraphan

Posted: 22 Sep 2009 19:05
by Seraphan
E. LeGuille wrote:Ghosts are supposed to be the personality, or complex idiosyncratic things made up a personality. It's often viewed that those, like Section. 9, who have full body transplants like Kusanagi, are invaluable, because they do not only exist on the human world, but also as a personality among the 'Net. The whole problem with this, though, is that if you watch 2nd Gig, you realize that Kusanagi is rare, as is her counterpart, because they were full-body transplants at a very young age. Kusangi isat rare because since she was one of the first, she kept her old full-body doll. She has several, several of these dolls around, and the fact that in essence, she cannot die since she lives among the 'Net, and among humans physically, and digitally. Cybernetic enhancements bring along a whole different realm of elitism, and racism, and the show, while showing in "The Laughing Man" campaign, shows that everything can be manipulated somehow by something, "Stand Alone Complex" shows us that the theory of individualism still generates a group think, and it is revealed much later that some things that are planted among the internet, are not always what we think they are. I don't want to ruin too much of SAC, but the Individual 11 exist due to a malfunction, and a pre-existant condition.

well you've gotten my interest in the series riled up again, thanks. :dance:

Re: Seraphan

Posted: 22 Sep 2009 23:25
by E. LeGuille
I have respected those who did the English versions of GITS, but lately there has been a paradigm shift in America. There seems to be a big move to make cartoons from Japan, or anime -- whatever, completely as they were intended with only subtitles to add. I don't know if you've ever seen Crouch Tiger, Hidden Dragon, but when I saw it in theaters originally, the subs were so much richer, and meaningful -- the nuances and syntax were amazing. But dubs ruin everything. Same thing with Brotherhood of the Wolf, the French version, was amazing. When I saw it originally without english dubs, it was exceptional, and rich.

English in the media is a summarizing language. It's sad.

Re: Seraphan

Posted: 23 Sep 2009 07:07
by SadisticCynic
I've seen Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon; definitely better with subs.

Re: Seraphan

Posted: 23 Sep 2009 09:17
by SandChigger
Redstar wrote:Some people have cybernetics, which is okay, but other people have "fully-body transplants", which is when they replace their entire body, brain and all, with a robot for either medical or personal reasons. These people are still treated as humans, which I don't understand how their past sets them apart from other robots that have AI, but weren't humans. (Though I suppose the constant use of the word "ghost" implies a soul is still present, somehow, but that must be explained in the films/manga)

:roll:

Carbo-corpo-centrist. :naughty: :snooty:

Who are you to decide what's human? :laughing:

Re: Seraphan

Posted: 23 Sep 2009 12:42
by Redstar
Considering the show takes place not even a hundred years into the future I'm just irked society has accepted it so fast. The rate technology advances hasn't equaled to human acceptance in the past. It's more this huge, unquestioned acceptance that disgusts me because it seems so unrealistic.

Re: Seraphan

Posted: 23 Sep 2009 22:14
by E. LeGuille
The acceptance of the internet took very little time, and has revolutionized the world's information use, as well as the world's commonality.

full-body prosthetics are not that common. People pierce themselves. That's pretty well accepted nowadays. Everything is accepted, so the next step in body modification is only a few years away. Hell, I'm surprised you didn't raise the issue about the show being centered in Japan, and America being an Imperialist nation currently invading Mexico doesn't bother you. Or how the Japanese nullified American nukes by developing nano-machines that eat radiation. Or how it predicted that America's economy would cause it to take a steep turn for the left, and how it would be a serious issue in thier relationship with the world where Japan was the main power.

Re: Seraphan

Posted: 23 Sep 2009 22:25
by Redstar
There's a big difference between browsing information and uploading your entire existence into a possibly soulless machine. You'll note that tattoos, piercings, and prosthetics have been around for centuries in some cultures and thousands of years in others. In every instance they were for religious or spiritual purposes, while Ghost in the Shell completely ignores religion. People who don't get full-body prosthetics or even minor enhancements, like Tleilaxu eyes, are considered eccentric. I can't see that realistically happening without at least one war. (Note that the Internet does get heat even now on issues of pornography, child pornography, cyber terrorism, bullying, identity theft, and just plain being an outlet. Many people have called for it to be either heavily censored or unplugged)

All the other things, besides radiation eating nano-machines, seem perfectly plausible to me. While none of them may not entirely come true, the representation of America pretty clearly reflects how this nation is perceived by others. It's just an exaggeration that makes Japanese viewers nod in understanding while American viewers laugh in disbelief.

Re: Seraphan

Posted: 23 Sep 2009 22:32
by E. LeGuille
Redstar wrote:There's a clear difference between browsing information and uploading your memories into a robot without any organic parts. You'll note that tattoos, piercings, and prosthetics have been around for centuries in some cultures and thousands of years in others. In every instance they were for religious or spiritual purposes, while Ghost in the Shell completely ignores religion. People who don't get full-body prosthetics or even minor enhancements, like Tleilaxu eyes, are considered eccentric. I can't see that realistically happening without at least one war.

All the other things, besides radiation eating nano-machines, seem perfectly plausible to me. While none of them may not entirely come true, the representation of America pretty clearly reflects how this nation is perceived by others. It's just an exaggeration that makes Japanese viewers nod in understanding while American viewers laugh in disbelief.


Well, that's your opinion. It is very popular in the U.S., despite the 'laughing' everyone is doing. The fact is that it is plausible. Not probable. And the fact it takes it on in a serious light, is the point. It's about the over-use of technology, the overdependent nature of man of it.

Edit: There is a paradigm shift in thought with the evolution of any technology. It is slow, and most people have very little to do with it, with GITS it is mostly a new evolution of the internet, and the use of cyberbrains. What you see, are soldiers who are using full-body prosthetics. These are FEW and far between. You don't see many people walking about with camouflage all the time nowadays, same reason you see it with unique soldiers of a special group.

And so you know, there are several conflicts that turn into a Pan-Asian war, that turns into a nuclear world war. And that is how the Japanese become so powerful, is because they had a technology that eradicated the effects of radiation. And they sold it. A lot of it.

Re: Seraphan

Posted: 23 Sep 2009 22:34
by Redstar
My opinion? What exactly are you disagreeing with?

And I know the premise of the show. I watch it. It's one of my favorite series.

Re: Seraphan

Posted: 23 Sep 2009 22:38
by E. LeGuille
You are stating that it is impossible for people to take to this kind of technology, right?

The use of a forum, like this, is common now, correct? 10 years ago, though possible, it was not the every day. In fact, it was even less so than that.

What I find a problem with your disagreement, is that there is no way people would accept this technology so quickly. I disagree. That is what I am saying. Part of the evolution of technology is that people change their thought process very quickly. It's about convenience.

Re: Seraphan

Posted: 23 Sep 2009 22:44
by Redstar
I don't disagree with the assumption that technology like this would be readily used in the future... What I disagree with is that it is used so unquestionably in such a short span of time.

People don't always latch onto convenience. I know many adults that dismiss the Internet and even computers as annoying contraptions, and they're still in their forties or younger. Even then, there's a difference between easily searching out information via a machine then there is actually becoming a machine... A quite possibly immortal, super-powered machine. I guarantee there will be riots, bills passed, and possibly even wars.

Why do I think this? Well, look at stem-cell research. Hardly as extreme as the technology depicted in Ghost in the Shell, but it still gets its detractors. Also, the Islamic terrorists are fighting us for our very dependence on convenience. We're fat and lazy and overly-horny and they don't like that. Religious wars happen for the most trivial things, and full-body prosthetics aren't trivial.

Re: Seraphan

Posted: 23 Sep 2009 22:48
by E. LeGuille
The argument of stem-cells is valid. However, if you remember -- it is an American debate. The Japanese are very different when it comes to major decisions like that. I'm sure Chigger would agree, if Japan was in charge of the world, and they had a debate over stem-cells, they would have already said Stem-Cells are fine. The problem with Stem-cells, is that it is an American tradition to turn everything into a religious debate. Because that kind of debate is philosophical, not logical. Japanese are not, by and large, practitioners of Shintoism anymore, so what religious issues are they going to have with this technology? Who is going to tell them no?

If you have no one stopping you, and no media blowing it out of proportion, then progress and acceptance happens much faster.

Re: Seraphan

Posted: 23 Sep 2009 22:53
by TheDukester
You guys are fun ...

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Re: Seraphan

Posted: 23 Sep 2009 23:24
by Redstar
Stem-cells were an example. Japan may or may not be conservative, but that makes no difference. If some country started manufacturing super-robot bodies for its citizens to occupy, then I can guarantee you some other nation is going to get pissed.

Ghost in the Shell: SAC depicts a world 27 years into the future when nearly every citizen in Japan, and nearly every citizen in the more developed nations, have full-body prosthetics or at least minor cybernetics. That simply is not enough time for the majority of the planet to accept something like that.

Re: Seraphan

Posted: 24 Sep 2009 11:42
by A Thing of Eternity
I would argue that if a human being has a soul, then so would a machine with a human being inside it. A human being is a human MIND, that is all. You could loose any part of your physical body and be considered no less human, but if you are a braindead vegitable (rest of your body functioning fine) you are no longer a human being, you are dead.