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    Chapter 48

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    Re: Chapter 48

    Postby nampigai » 17 Jan 2010 11:25

    Ampoliros wrote:Perhaps the net functions partially as a bridge between prescients, navigators, and Ixian style navigation machines, maybe it is a method of projection that prescients can use for long range ftl communication; somehow magnifying the 'spice tau' connection over infinite distance. This might explain Leto II's telepathic projection to Muad'dib if he was the first to tap into the net or even started its creation.


    exactly - something of the line of my thoughts as well.
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    Re: Chapter 48

    Postby A Little Galach » 04 Jun 2010 10:18

    So...my intrepretation from reading this is that the net and M&D's communication with Duncan and the ship (because it's not just Duncan they have intimate knowledge of) is a product of the ship. Some sort of connective hardware that Duncan runs and unplugs allows them to observe the ship and alomst "catch" them. Duncan unplugging the hardware effectively allows them to "escape" and ride off into the sunset, disapperaing into the scattering.

    So am I correct in thinking that this is yet another manner in which the sequels have completely missed the intention of FH and more than likely simply an attempt to sell prequels by fabricating plot for sequels?
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    Re: Chapter 48

    Postby Freakzilla » 05 Jun 2010 15:12

    A Little Galach wrote:So...my intrepretation from reading this is that the net and M&D's communication with Duncan and the ship (because it's not just Duncan they have intimate knowledge of) is a product of the ship. Some sort of connective hardware that Duncan runs and unplugs allows them to observe the ship and alomst "catch" them. Duncan unplugging the hardware effectively allows them to "escape" and ride off into the sunset, disapperaing into the scattering.


    I think of the data which Idaho erases as sort of a software node for a prescient communication system. Or something like that.

    So am I correct in thinking that this is yet another manner in which the sequels have completely missed the intention of FH and more than likely simply an attempt to sell prequels by fabricating plot for sequels?


    Of course.
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    Re: Chapter 48

    Postby inhuien » 05 Jun 2010 17:25

    The star charts represents knowledge dumping them makes their possible destinations unknown.
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    Re: Chapter 48

    Postby Kojiro » 20 Jul 2010 00:26

    nampigai wrote:I don't know with you others but for the net and Duncan/Marty-Daniel I have thoughts about them being able to bend or fold space on their own. I think it says something about it someplace in the book, but I'll have to go back for that.


    Page 336.

    Duncan Idaho wrote:Someone "out there" has found another way to use Holzmann's theories! It was a full Mentat Projection.
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    Re: Chapter 48

    Postby Freakzilla » 20 Jul 2010 09:50

    I think they were using it for communication and that's what The Net was.
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    Re: Chapter 48

    Postby Kojiro » 20 Jul 2010 15:16

    That's what I think it was too.
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    Re: Chapter 48

    Postby Ibn Teg » 03 Nov 2011 06:23

    The whole "Net" thing definately had me scratching my head so much I've taken to wearing a hairpiece. I too read it in literal terms as simply refering to a communications network which was hacked by D&M to locate Idaho (possibly that was pre-planned in all ships as a contingency op should Scattering ships be captured thereby enabling D&M to spy on whoever happen to take the ship or to seize back control of it...hence Idaho's dumping of the core). But given that the Internet didn't exist at the time Herbert (saw/pbuh) was writing CoD I wonder if thats what he implied (perhaps He [saw/pbuh] was using prescience! :shifty: ).

    OTOH the esoteric or metaphysical implications of Idaho and Teg's transcendant state may mean that there was a universal level of awareness, a sort of Jungian synchronicity (or universal collective consciousness), that functions as a universal "Net" in which each "enlightened" superbeing forms a node connecting them to each other. Each node would thereby use OM as a data bank (the internet analogy comes to mind here again). This raises the question raised earlier of whether OMs could communicate on the Net via their respective terminals/superbeings (is that confusing enough yet? :oops: ). The collective ability of networked superbeings may stretch to project possible furutres forward thereby ensuring that they occur, sort of shaping the universe? OK. I think I've dug a big enough hole.

    Suffice to say, I prefer my first notion to the rather more philosophically confusing aspects of the second (for obvious reasons). Still, nice to know that others have trod the same (not so Golden) path ;)
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    Re: Chapter 48

    Postby Freakzilla » 03 Nov 2011 07:47

    Ibn Teg wrote:But given that the Internet didn't exist at the time Herbert (saw/pbuh) was writing CoD I wonder if thats what he implied (perhaps He [saw/pbuh] was using prescience! :shifty: ).


    In the May 1970 issue of Popular Science magazine Arthur C. Clarke was reported to have predicted that satellites would one day "bring the accumulated knowledge of the world to your fingertips" using a console that would combine the functionality of the Xerox, telephone, television and a small computer, allowing data transfer and video conferencing around the globe.

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    Re: Chapter 48

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 05 Nov 2011 01:28

    Clarke also came up with the idea for the geostationary/communications satellite, he had a gift for that kind of shit.

    You want to read amazing predictions of the internet and how it turns people into idiots who value second hand info more than first hand, second hand experiences more than first, so forth and so on?

    The Machine Stops, E.M. Forster - written a hundred years ago and blew my mind.
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    Re: Chapter 48

    Postby JimmytheT » 11 Mar 2012 15:44

    Well I just finished my second re-read of the series. I certainly got much more out of it the second time.

    On to the ending of Chapterhouse: I would not call the closing chapters of the book "cliffhanger", but more of an open ending. Frank seems to have left all Dune novels with an ending that provides resolution to many of the plot and character elements; however there is always an openness that leaves it to the reader's imagination or left it open for Frank to consider furthering it with new writings (to properly consider this you must put yourself in the shoes of reader and author at the time of publication of each novel).

    The directions the characters are going and their motivations are pretty clear in the end, and it honestly feels like Frank was prepared to stop the Dune storytelling with this volume, but leaving plenty of room to write Dune 7 if he chose to do so. He died before he could render his decision to proceed, so the choice was made. I am happy with the storytelling ending here and leaving it to the reader to speculate what happens with the Sisterhood, the occupants of the no ship, the Honored Matres and the powerful Face Dancers from the Scattering.
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    Re: Chapter 48

    Postby Freakzilla » 12 Mar 2012 15:13

    I never had the "cliffhanger" feeling, I was just sad that was the end of the story... and Frank was dead.
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    Re: Chapter 48

    Postby Nekhrun » 12 Mar 2012 20:07

    Freakzilla wrote:I never had the "cliffhanger" feeling, I was just sad that was the end of the story... and Frank was dead.

    Neither did I. I figured that was just the way he was going to leave it. I'm sure he wouldn't have just left it if the money was right. I'm quite content with how it ended.
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    Re: Chapter 48

    Postby Freakzilla » 12 Mar 2012 20:45

    Contrary to being a cliffhanger, I think CH:D ended with everything oddly spelled out for you. We were pretty much told what was going to happen in the future. Not that FH couldn't have changed that if he hadn't died...

    :wink:
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    Re: Chapter 48

    Postby Freakzilla » 12 Mar 2012 20:48

    Freakzilla wrote:Not that FH couldn't have changed that if he hadn't died...

    :wink:


    Triple negative of the month. :clap:
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    Re: Chapter 48

    Postby Nekhrun » 13 Mar 2012 10:04

    Freakzilla wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:Not that FH couldn't have changed that if he hadn't died...

    :wink:


    Triple negative of the month. :clap:

    You just gave Nebby a seizure.

    I think it's likely that FH would've changed it somewhat just to surprise the reader.
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    Re: Chapter 48

    Postby Freakzilla » 13 Mar 2012 11:23

    Nekhrun wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:Not that FH couldn't have changed that if he hadn't died...

    :wink:


    Triple negative of the month. :clap:

    You just gave Nebby a seizure.

    I think it's likely that FH would've changed it somewhat just to surprise the reader.


    I agree, things rarely went according to plan in his books, as in life.

    They say in the army, "if all is going according to plan, you're walking into an ambush."

    However I feel confident in the general direction things were going. If anything, with the crew and company of the no-ship dissapearing to an unknown location, the Golden Path was even more solidified.
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    Re: Chapter 48

    Postby Freakzilla » 11 Sep 2012 13:02

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    Re: Chapter 48

    Postby Freakzilla » 11 Sep 2012 13:03

    It's scarry to think about what Sheeana and company might do... :shock:
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    Re: Chapter 48

    Postby JasonJD48 » 04 Feb 2015 01:38

    I think we have to ask the question, if the no-ships are invisible, how do they avoid accidentally colliding or folding into each other?

    Duncan dumps navigation, star charts and null-fields, each weakens the ship's connection with the net. Perhaps the net is essentially a connection that allows the ships to navigate around each other, Daniel and Marty have learned to hack this web and intercede in navigating the ships. That doesn't really explain how the 'thinning out' has an effect, except perhaps that a longer existence through time makes one a bigger target.

    Ibn Teg mentioned something similar but subtly different, he mentions that the internet didn't exist then, but computer networks sure did.
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    Re: Chapter 48

    Postby inhuien » 08 Feb 2015 03:35

    JasonJD48 wrote:I think we have to ask the question, if the no-ships are invisible, how do they avoid accidentally colliding or folding into each other?

    I'm not sure that we do need to ask that question (not here at least, this being a chapter discussion thread), but if there only downside is the chance of accidental collision I bet the bosses seen that as a fare trade-off
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    Re: Chapter 48

    Postby JasonJD48 » 08 Feb 2015 03:45

    inhuien wrote:
    JasonJD48 wrote:I think we have to ask the question, if the no-ships are invisible, how do they avoid accidentally colliding or folding into each other?

    I'm not sure that we do need to ask that question (not here at least, this being a chapter discussion thread), but if there only downside is the chance of accidental collision I bet the bosses seen that as a fare trade-off


    Firstly, the question was entirely in keeping with the preceding three pages of discussion on this 'chapter discussion' thread. Secondly, the question was really meant to be rhetorical as part of my larger point that 'The Net' was a communication/tracking net to prevent said collisions.

    My full statement was:
    JasonJD48 wrote:I think we have to ask the question, if the no-ships are invisible, how do they avoid accidentally colliding or folding into each other?

    Duncan dumps navigation, star charts and null-fields, each weakens the ship's connection with the net. Perhaps the net is essentially a connection that allows the ships to navigate around each other, Daniel and Marty have learned to hack this web and intercede in navigating the ships. That doesn't really explain how the 'thinning out' has an effect, except perhaps that a longer existence through time makes one a bigger target.

    Ibn Teg mentioned something similar but subtly different, he mentions that the internet didn't exist then, but computer networks sure did.


    I hope this clarifies the relevance my first sentence had to the rest of my post and therefore to the particular chapter. This was one of the shorter posts I have done, so please feel free to read the whole thing before admonishing me.
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    Re: Chapter 48

    Postby georgiedenbro » 04 Jun 2016 03:07

    Freakzilla wrote:
    Any ideas what the 'peaking' refers to?


    This is extrememly mysterious to me. It impies to me that "The Net" is somehow a form of communication through OM.


    It didn't occur to me that the net was communication through OM since strictly speaking Duncan doesn't have access to OM. And yet, we see throughout the series that many roads lead to Rome, and that several methods can be employed to get to the same place. The BG use 'natural' methods to obtain access to OM, while the BT used genetic engineering to effectively create their own version of OM (serial memories). The BG (and Frank) even think of the Human species as one continuing organism, and likewise a serial ghola is one organism evolving over a long period of time using iterant reproduction. Different method, similar result. So when M&D speak of being "spread thin" they don't seem to indicate there's much difference between that being OM or serial memory. Maybe using tachyons M&D can scan the past and future and take notice of people spread thin since they will see many self-similar iterations of that person. Maybe such people naturally attract their attention, like a big "look here" flashing sign. Maybe they have a special capacity to zero in on those who are 'spread thin'; after all they only mention spying on RM's and Duncan, and do not mention spying on anyone without OM/serial memory. I'm wondering whether this ability of theirs isn't some more advanced analogue to what Alia did to Mohiam in Dune, when she appeared in her OM, and also when she sent messages to Paul to, I suppose, his future memory. Memory is, after all, merely that which records patterned movement, which comes across as time; but time is in fact merely space and movement. Being able to send messages or read information across infinite distance instantaneously would be equivalent to scanning forwards and backwards in time, and likewise for sending messages.

    This might help to explain why Duncan and the RM's are sensitive to M&D's peeking, but it doesn't explain why Dunan alone can see them and the net. It could have to do with what the Tleilaxu put in his DNA, which we don't fully know yet. Presumably the Scattering BT told them how to do it even though they'd never been able to fully test it before, so maybe they gave him some special DNA thingy that M&D had also. But - maybe it's not as sci-fi-ish as that; maybe it's more fundamental. In reading this last chapter for the umpteenth time I had some new thoughts.

    For one, Daniel is pruning roses, which are usually symbolic of romance or love. Maybe not in the future, but then again they are referencing speech idioms from the ancient past (i.e. the 20th century) so I'm sure a symbol like roses for love would be fresh in their minds as well. Let's assume roses=love is meaningful for the time being. Then we get a fact that is right there in the open but I swear I was blind to before; M&D are referred to as a male and female, even though we know that Face Dancers don't have a specific sex/gender and can be anything. And despite having many personas each, no doubt both male and female, we repeatedly see them in these forms, with these genders, almost as if they've adopted them as their regular, standard personas. But why? Maybe not by choice, but because they have to. Just like the FD's in Heretics which enslaved the masters, it seems inevitable that in the Scattering the FD's would have done the same. Except that to prevent enslavement the Scattering BT would have given their FD's the same ability that Duncan was given - enslavement countermeasures. But what would happen when a FD that had absorbed an Honored Matre (and believed it was one) met up with another FD that had absorbed an Honored Matre? They would try to enslave each other and get the double whammy that Mubella and Duncan got. So what if M&D are male and female because they are sexually bonded to each other, and must provide each other with the same sexual stimulus to which they were enslaved at first? If Daniel was a male when enslaving Marty, she would need that precise persona (body and personality) to continue getting her fix. I assume it wouldn't satisfy her to get it from another persona. All this to say - M&D are basically married the way Duncan and Murbella were. I even think that this 'enslavement' might have been Frank's model for ideal marriage going into the next book, but that's conjecture on my part. And yet the 'need' to be with each other seems analogous to the need we are told many times in CH:D the BG have, that inner compulsion to help humanity to atone for the past. In a way, the BG are 'married' to helping humanity, just as if they were enslaved. Even Murbella realizes she has no essential choice in that regard, and she curses the fact since she doesn't want it. I also think her agony removed her bond to Duncan because she became enslaved to a new partner (her past).

    So let's say I'm right and M&D are sexually enslaved to each other, requiring them to stay in those forms most of the time. So what? Well now we have a curious situation, because we are also given Duncan and Murbella as an enslaved couple in the same book. That can hardly be a coincidence. And also by coincidence Duncan is the only one who can see the net? I don't think so. So here's my new idea: what if the reason Duncan can see the net is because he's in love? Not just in love, as in, cares for someone. I mean in love, as in, is irredeemably bonded to someone. I think the fact that Daniel is fascinated by roses is a big clue here, to indicate that love plays an integral part in accessing the net. This would tie in themes in CH:D right back in with those from Dune, where love was the largest factor in how the galaxy changed. It fueled Jessica, creating Paul, and it fueled Yueh, who saved Paul. I think it fueled Leto II, and that it even motivates the basic actions of all BG, which may be why they shy away so much from facing it directly. Odrade even mentions in CH:D that they made a mistake to shy away from it as they did, and they it needed to be re-embraced. When she decided to merge BG with HM, it seems to me to have been more than merely a contingency plan to get rid of the HM threat. I think it was also a method of getting rid of the BG stagnation as well, and forcing them into re-learning something the HM's abused - the creation of bonds between individuals. The HM's used it for power, which was self-defeating, but I think Odrade wanted the Sisterhood to learn to use it to find their humanity. Another speculation on my part.

    Duncan gained his serial memories (and more) when he and Murbella bonded with each other. It could be that's why he began to see the net at that time. But it could be that he began to be able to see it because he was bonded at that time as well. If we think about tachyons, maybe we should think about quantum entanglement as well; about how matter across the universe can be 'bonded' in such a way as it can communicate in a sense with other matter elsewhere seemingly instantly. In fact, there's a theory I've read that the entire universe may be quantum entangled, meaning interconnected through some instantaneous medium. So what if being bonded gives one sensitivity to the bonds that already exist throughout the universe?

    And now, of course, I have to ask what Sheeana was planning. I still don't know the answer to this, and I'm troubled by Odrade's riddle about how it's the next logical step in the progression from Jessica->Muad'dib->Tyrant->HM->New BG->Sheeana->?

    I wonder whether the answer to this progression lies somehow in what makes Duncan special. Just going off the pattern indicated, I think Jessica represents love, which is chaotic. Muad'dib is the attempt to create pure order, realizing that it's a trap and leads to decay. Leto II is the instruction to all that pure order must never be permitted, and that only chaos guarantees the continuation of life. The HM's are pure chaos itself, refusing to be ruled. The new BG are the universe realizing that it must cope with people who will not be ruled, and deal with them on those terms. Sheanna is a BG who embodies chaos; a new kind of BG almost anticipating the union between the HM and the BG. Maybe the Tyrant foresaw the need for the BG to move in the direction of chaos to continue his work, and his pearls of consciousness were looking for such a person. So what is next in the progression once chaos is admitted into the way of life of the new BG? The making of chaos into a religion just as Leto II made order into a religion to teach chaos? Sheeana mentioned considering taking the worm skin, and we know she intended to be the head of a new religion. I guess I'm making a short circuit here, but I think this was going to lead to Frank's idea of universal democracy, and that this was the only way to get to it for real; by having a people unrulable who would only thereafter subscribe to a religion of chaos mixed with discipline.

    My thought on how this relates to Duncan is that I think by being a compromised, enslaved mentat, he was ruled by his desires for Murbella and could not exist merely on a logical level. And yet he retained his free will, as she did, and they had to figure out a way to co-exist by ruling each other and yet neither submitting. And I think this setup can be said to be analogous to what ideal democracy would be like. People ruled, but not in submission. Bound, but not servile or helpless. Rather, the bonding ought to bring out a new strength as it did for Duncan and Murbella. Such a setup would require all participants to be untameable fundamentally, while also needing to be forced into a kind of arrangement from which there could be no opting out. That need the BG have to serve - that would have to be there, and also the need to love, as Murbella and Duncan had (and, I think, M&D).

    That's all I got for now. Some speculation, but I'm starting to be convinced about the roses-love-bonding-net angle. I think those concepts are meant to be linked, and to show that humanity is itself linked already in ways its parts aren't yet aware of. If humanity is one large organism then maybe that means it could become self-aware and cease feeling like separate unrelated parts? The BG were the beginning of this, and maybe the net is the end.
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