Do this paragraph contradicts the BJ novels by KJA?

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Do this paragraph contradicts the BJ novels by KJA?

Postby cmsahe » 25 Dec 2008 23:43

GEoD:

"The target of the Jihad was a machine-attitude as much as the machines," Leto said. "Humans had set those machines to usurp our sense of beauty, our necessary selfdom out of which we make living judgments. Naturally, the machines were destroyed."
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Postby SandChigger » 26 Dec 2008 00:03

Of course it contradicts everything written in the Legends books!

But that doesn't matter, don't you see, because both the Legends books and all of FH's Dune books were written by in-universe characters: Irulan in the case of the first and some post-Leto Bene Gesserit or other person in the case of GEoD.

Kevin's philosophy is that no author can ever be 100% consistent across the books of a series. He has said as much on his MySpace blog. Since he is making Dune all about the writers now (if he can't be more of a "hero" in real life, at least he can build up writers in the fictional universe he has usurped!), why should he make these fictional ones any better than the one he idealizes (and idolizes) in the real world (himself)? If he is inconsistent, why shouldn't they be as well.

Kevin has written it, so we are to believe it. He thinks he has removed any logical objection to his "Dune" books now. If we continue to bitch and moan (or whine, as some would have it), it's just because we're "haters" and have a vendetta against him personally.

Well...at least he got that very last part right. :twisted:
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Postby TheDukester » 26 Dec 2008 00:10

SandChigger wrote:Kevin's philosophy is that no author can ever be 100% consistent across the books of a series.

This is especially true if one's "writing" is actually spewing stream-of-consciousness babble into a fucking piece of plastic while out hiking.
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Postby cmsahe » 26 Dec 2008 00:11

SandChigger wrote:Of course it contradicts everything written in the Legends books!

But that doesn't matter, don't you see, because both the Legends books and all of FH's Dune books were written by in-universe characters: Irulan in the case of the first and some post-Leto Bene Gesserit or other person in the case of GEoD.


That man is mad, madder than the mad hatter, SandChigger, if KJA says that about our beloved Dune novels then I'll say, from now on, that his books are a nightmare suffered by a fremen with a terrible hangover after a spice orgy.
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re:

Postby cmsahe » 26 Dec 2008 00:39

KJA dictating his masterpieces (Brian is the Poodle!) ;) (Little Britain Dame Sally Markham)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8yb32iX9O4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9JjALQfi48&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzHviElN74Y

Your friendly neighborhood Talifan ;)
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Postby Schu » 26 Dec 2008 00:42

When KJA insists that FH's books are merely flawed/distorted histories and his books are really the objective report on it, it's is extremely stupid, especially considering how much FH commented on history being written by the victors and how Leto manipulated the histories for certain groups etc.

Not withstanding the insane amount of description that is given in them (waaaaay more than could possibly be reported to a biographer, and more than they could understand anyway, especially since it was probably meant to be irulan writing them) and the fact that the actual historical writing punctuates through in the form of pre-chapter snippets, if FH thought that it was meant to be a historical account that was distorted by the authors etc., would he have included in those very accounts dialogue on how the histories that those authors are meant to be doctoring were doctored? The authors would have removed them, to remove doubt (as Paul supposedly suggested).

Grr. Incoherent rant. It's just plain lazy of them.

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Postby SandRider » 26 Dec 2008 01:03

I don't think it started out that way. I think Keith took a cursory look at Frank's Dune books, and started churning. Or hiking. Or whatever. He came to it from the fast-and-loose world of hundreds of Star Wars franchise paperbacks. He just started "writing", and didn't really expect the reaction from people who took Dune seriously. Who ever took Star Wars seriously ? This whole Irualan/in-universe red-herring is just that - sloppy, inconsistent, and made up on the spot to deal with the current situation - just like his "books".

And I don't think Brian had ever really "studied" Dune, either. I'll bet he hasn't read God-Emperor all the way thru more than twice. If that. Of course, that really doesn't matter, either, he's not "writing" any of the new books.....
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Postby Schu » 26 Dec 2008 01:16

Well yes. I mean, there was a time they actually *tried* to explain inconsistencies. Now obviously they don't have to :evil:

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Postby SandChigger » 26 Dec 2008 14:05

I am still praying for that meteorite with his name on it. :P
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Postby SandRider » 26 Dec 2008 14:12

one of the frustrating things about all this to me is that they (the HLP and Keith) will not, or cannot, just talk normally about the issue and tell the truth. we sit over here and speculate on their motives, but speculation is all that it is. What they have said (Keith & That Asshole) can't be trusted or taken at face value because it's all spin.

If they want to Star-Wars Dune, fine. Just say so. All this hoop-jumping is annoying. I haven't seen this kind of institutional subterfuge since the Nixon administration ....
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Postby SandChigger » 26 Dec 2008 14:43

Well, they sucked in a lot of people by claiming that they were using Frank's notes and following his outline, etc. You have to admit that it was brilliant insofar as it worked.

They're no longer claiming that exactly (they still say they're referring to his notes and chapter and character sketches, etc.) but instead are answering the questions that fans have had by filling in the "gaps". As well as correcting Frank's "errors". :roll:

They'll never admit that they've been turning Dune into Star Wars the whole time.
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Postby TheDukester » 26 Dec 2008 16:57

True dat.

If your goal is simply to turn on the $20-bill printing press, then few things will ever be as successful as cooking up a "lost notes" story. Sci-Fi fandom is just bursting at the seams with not only gullible halfwits, but also appears to be over-run with completists who have too much damn money. The shelves and shelves of Star wars books that driver SR crazy is a pretty good example; those shelves wouldn't exist if the market (mouth-breathing fanboys) wasn't sucking them up.
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Postby Schu » 26 Dec 2008 23:43

What the hell are you guys talking about? Star Wars is much better than this non-Dune tripe. Even the prequels. Even Hayden Christensen whinging about how angsty he is can provide at least some entertainment!

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Postby TheDukester » 27 Dec 2008 00:17

Schu wrote:What the hell are you guys talking about?

The franchising of Star Wars into McStarWars.

And how Kurt and The Other Guy's once-per-year "Dune" books are pretty much the exact same thing.

That's what we're talking about.
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Postby Hunchback Jack » 30 Dec 2008 20:06

SandChigger wrote:They'll never admit that they've been turning Dune into Star Wars the whole time.


I doubt whether they think of it in those terms, though.

I really think that they believe they are being respectful of Frank's work. They concede that they're not writing as well as Frank would have, but they believe they are adding something valuable to his universe. So they'll never "admit" they're turning Dune into Star Wars, as they don't think they are.

Even the Heroes books, which can in no way reflect Frank's intentions for the series, are seen by the hacks twain as a desirable addition to the canon. The "in-universe texts" plot twist is a way-cool metafiction device, not a cheap trick to avoid the whole inconsistency issue.

I think this is the problem we have; the authors truly believe they are doing a good job of expanding Frank's universe.

Edited to add: Of course, their primary concern is making money, but given that goal, I think they still believe they're doing a good job of expanding the series.

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Postby SandRider » 30 Dec 2008 20:25

I'm starting to think that, too, Jack. I've read just about all the interviews with Keith, Brian, and Merritt I can find, and that's been a troubling issue. I think they really think they are doing a good thing. I think Keith is mostly responsible for this attitude. (neither Brian nor Merritt strike me as the analytical literary types who would be able to understand true literary critism) Somewhere there, I read Keith talking about "annual science fiction books" - the kind of stuff that was popular when he was young, and still kind of is - it's the template for the Star Wars novels, and now Dune.

Which gets to my central point - they don't get the literary merits of Frank Herbert's Dune outside of the science fiction genre. It makes it much harder to convince someone he's doing wrong when he doesn't understand what you're talking about. (Just like George W. Bush. "Mr President, you've really played fast & loose with civil rights and the constitution in your War on Terror" --- "Yep. Keepin Merica Safe. Heh,heh,heh. {smirk})
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Postby GamePlayer » 30 Dec 2008 22:42

Hunchback Jack wrote:I doubt whether they think of it in those terms, though.

I really think that they believe they are being respectful of Frank's work. They concede that they're not writing as well as Frank would have, but they believe they are adding something valuable to his universe. So they'll never "admit" they're turning Dune into Star Wars, as they don't think they are.

HBJ


I'd definitely agree with this assessment. Bravo HBJ.

Part of the KJA delusion is the honest belief that his contributions are valuable, however "short" they may be of Frank Herbert's own work. KJA really believes he understands Dune and I really do believe that is why he becomes so angry and personally insulted when his hated "Talifans" attempt to correct him on blatant errors and contradictions. Continuity errors in and of themselves aren't the issue; to the mind of KJA, suggesting he's wrong is paramount to assuming you know more about Dune than he does. And how can that be, since he's the chosen one? How can KJA even conceive of being in error when he believes his skill as a writer is the reason the HLP selected him to write more Dune? :)

Naturally, the problem is Dune didn't need Terminators or Doctor Manhattans or any of the thousand other sci-fi universes KJA has raped and artificially inseminated into Dune. Dune was Dune because it didn't have Terminators. The act of KJA adding them to Dune is not a "valuable contribution" to the Dune universe, it's just cliche. Hence, the vehement resistance to his books.

It's a simple formula, really :)
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Postby SandRider » 30 Dec 2008 22:50

take into account as well that Keith isn't the "Chosen One" -
he chose himself - If the HLP went looking for a ghost writer/partner
for Brian, and after a long and extensive search settled on KJA, he'd
have some bragging rights. He insinuated himself into the situation,
and as far as I can tell, basically forced Brian into starting the restart
before Brian himself was ready. (My opinion, reading between the lines)

but yeah, it really is a simple thing - what kind of deep-seated psychological
problems are there that won't allow him to look objectively at the situation ?

Brian is "distressed" - Keith is "amazed, actually" - Merritt is ....well, just clueless in general.

Sad. :cry:
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Postby SandChigger » 30 Dec 2008 23:15

So ... the pendulum is swinging back to the "clueless dumbfucks" side again? ;)


Granted, it does explain the indignant outrage. But it's hard for me to believe they can be that disconnected from reality....
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Postby SandRider » 30 Dec 2008 23:21

it'd be alot easier if any of the three could be convincingly honest.

I think they lost all credibility with the way the Dune7 outline and
"1300" pages of notes were handled.....

somebody within the HLP or close to them will have to eventually
tell the truth in order to understand what they think/believe.

it's like Hyppo and Arrakeen - OK, the site's not trashed beyond salvage -
open it up and let's see. No-one is just going to "take her word" for it.

Let's see the outline & notes - not just hear you talk about them. :roll:
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Postby TheDukester » 30 Dec 2008 23:46

SandRider wrote:He insinuated himself into the situation,
and as far as I can tell, basically forced Brian into starting the restart
before Brian himself was ready. (My opinion, reading between the lines)

I've always felt this way, too. It's not like KJA emerged as the best candidate from some huge pool of available talent; he waved something shiny at poor distracted, brain-dead Brian, who was looking to pick up a retirement nest-egg, and got his foot (and hideous comb-over) in the door.

I've also never believed for a minute that those two have the wonderful personal and professional relationship they've talked about. For one thing, their personalities don't mesh at all; for another, their writing habits couldn't be more different (not that I think any respectable author would ever stoop to "Book-A-Week" Anderson's obsession with quantity). No, I really sense that this is KJA sucking it up and dealing with poor addled Brian (and the useless HLP) because he feels that his "Dune" books are his one legitimate shot at the literary glory he craves so obsessively.

All of the above factors into my belief that KJA does all the nu-Dune writing ... if for no other reason that there's no way they could be "trading chapters" when no one, least of all Brian "Look At The Pretty Cloud" Herbert, could possibly hope to keep up with KJA's hike-it-out pace. I'd bet cash money that KJA does all the writing and Bri-Bri gets the first read, does some minor editing, and likely has the final say (based solely on his surname). Whether or not he actually does any substantial editing is a matter of conjecture, of course.
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Postby SandChigger » 31 Dec 2008 00:16

Then again there are the posts to Kevin's blawg which contain what appears to be (very thinly) veiled irritation that Brian hasn't completed his part of the writing yet. (I'll have to look back through to find them, but it was during the writing of either Hunters or Sandworms. Or maybe during a book tour?)

Could all just be an act, to keep up the ruse ... but are they really that complex? :?
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Postby SandChigger » 31 Dec 2008 00:28

I kinda have a problem with this "clueless dumbfook" view of them, though:

Hating the clueless, stupid and insane seems somehow less justifiable than hating the evil, conniving and avaricious. :?
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Postby SandRider » 31 Dec 2008 00:31

how about one of each ?

Brian = dumbfuck
Keith = evil


I'll agree with Duke - right now, I think Keith writes everything and
Brian reads it and corrects typos on Sue's transcriptions ...
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Postby SandChigger » 31 Dec 2008 00:36

Sue?

Is that Kevin's transcriptionist now? ;)

(Or you wanna mean Susie Wong, you sry doggie?)
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