Jessica to the Winds of Dune inconsistencies!

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Re: Jessica to the Winds of Dune inconsistencies!

Postby lotek » 20 Jun 2010 11:39

- WHY stickers on luggage in a DUNE novel?

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Re: Jessica to the Winds of Dune inconsistencies!

Postby DuneFishUK » 20 Jun 2010 11:50

- WHY stickers on luggage in a DUNE novel?

I'm still in two minds on this one, you're not the first to bring it up.

The Duniverse is full of bureaucracy (the best form of dictatorship) so forms, declarations and tearable stickers that you can't put back together would (in my mind) be a constant part of space travel and travel in general.

However, I have read the passage with it in - and Spanky and Bobo I don't think understand any of that. Or maybe it was something that Brian wrote, then KJA just glossed over because he didn't understand it.

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Re: Jessica to the Winds of Dune inconsistencies!

Postby dunaddict » 20 Jun 2010 13:02

The image in my mind was Jessica standing there with this in her hand:
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Re: Jessica to the Winds of Dune inconsistencies!

Postby TheDukester » 20 Jun 2010 13:18

That was my mental image, too. I figured this was a case of Keith trying to be cute: "Hey, look, everyone! Stickers on luggage! Just like America, circa 1957! Only this is space travel!"

I can easily see him thinking this is the height of cleverness. You know, because he's a complete tool.
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Re: Jessica to the Winds of Dune inconsistencies!

Postby dunaddict » 20 Jun 2010 13:37

Oh, and can somebody post the English translation of my Dutch translation of the original English text please? Pleazzze
I would like to know if what I've read, was what they were saying and what I think they thought they were saying. Get it?
The "standing on his shoulder" and "picking up the pieces" stuff. Thank you.

The novel was full of this 'rewriting Dune' by Irulan by the way. Every four pages. I'm not kidding. Both in the epigraphs and the main text. It was getting to the point that I was saying out loud: "I GET it already, Dune by IRRRRRULAN, I get it!!!! Sigh.

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Re: Jessica to the Winds of Dune inconsistencies!

Postby Sev » 20 Jun 2010 13:45

TheDukester wrote:I can easily see him thinking this is the height of cleverness.


Whereas we all know it's just the height of his sheer laziness. I can imagine him waddling along some favorite route (no, not the one from the TV to the fridge) and coming to the part of Jessica's luggage. For a micro-second there's a thought 'Stickers on luggage? we're talking a universe far, far away - or someshit - I've got to extrapolate some feasible alternative, something cool'. Then he realizes he's two minutes from the end of a chapter and thinks 'Oh Fuck that, who cares anyway?'
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Re: Jessica to the Winds of Dune inconsistencies!

Postby lotek » 20 Jun 2010 14:18

DuneFishUK wrote:
- WHY stickers on luggage in a DUNE novel?

I'm still in two minds on this one, you're not the first to bring it up.

The Duniverse is full of bureaucracy (the best form of dictatorship) so forms, declarations and tearable stickers that you can't put back together would (in my mind) be a constant part of space travel and travel in general.

However, I have read the passage with it in - and Spanky and Bobo I don't think understand any of that. Or maybe it was something that Brian wrote, then KJA just glossed over because he didn't understand it.


If you search for the word "paper" in Dune you find several occurrences that suggest the fact it is still in use(the note from the Fremen to Leto, the spice paper where Yueh hides the ducal signet and a few more)
Nothing about stickers though ;)

You have read that passage could you copy it here?
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Re: Jessica to the Winds of Dune inconsistencies!

Postby DuneFishUK » 20 Jun 2010 14:51

lotek wrote:
DuneFishUK wrote:
- WHY stickers on luggage in a DUNE novel?

I'm still in two minds on this one, you're not the first to bring it up.

The Duniverse is full of bureaucracy (the best form of dictatorship) so forms, declarations and tearable stickers that you can't put back together would (in my mind) be a constant part of space travel and travel in general.

However, I have read the passage with it in - and Spanky and Bobo I don't think understand any of that. Or maybe it was something that Brian wrote, then KJA just glossed over because he didn't understand it.


If you search for the word "paper" in Dune you find several occurrences that suggest the fact it is still in use(the note from the Fremen to Leto, the spice paper where Yueh hides the ducal signet and a few more)
Nothing about stickers though ;)

You have read that passage could you copy it here?

Someone posted it here a while back.

I don't think the absence of a thing proves it doesn't exist in the Dune universe - Are there really that many scenes in Dune that would have been improved with the addition of stickers? (No! Go away Keith!)

And also in Dune (like the 1950s) travel is a luxury for the wealthy. I can imagine mid-level merchants etc might keep stickers on their luggage as souvenirs and status symbols. But I don't think that fits with Jessica's character.

Right, found it in the PDF - judge for yourself (It actually isn't quite as bad as I remembered it - the mention of transport authorities saves it a bit... But you know if they understood any of the above they would have said it and repeated it. That they don't is either the art of subtlety (har har har) or cluelessness)

Lady Jessica stood in her chamber with the familiar packing wardrobe open before her. Its sides bore the stickers and date stamps of transport authorities, showing the many planets and star systems she had visited since the time she first left Wallach IX as a young woman to become the concubine of Duke Leto Atreides. Jessica had seen a great deal since then, had experienced supreme joy and profound tragedy.

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Re: Jessica to the Winds of Dune inconsistencies!

Postby Nekhrun » 20 Jun 2010 15:12

dunaddict wrote:Ok. I've read it. I finished it. And oh....my....god, it was so incredibly boring.

You Sir, are a fucking hero. This was a great post. I've been on page 40 or so of Paul of Dune since the day it came out.

My only surprise in your post is that the stickers weren't called Spice Stickers.
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Re: Jessica to the Winds of Dune inconsistencies!

Postby Freakzilla » 20 Jun 2010 15:20

Ultra-stickers
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Re: Jessica to the Winds of Dune inconsistencies!

Postby Nekhrun » 20 Jun 2010 15:25

Freakzilla wrote:Ultra-stickers

They're so sticky that they'll stick to non-stick spice pans.
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Re: Jessica to the Winds of Dune inconsistencies!

Postby Freakzilla » 20 Jun 2010 15:32

Nekhrun wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:Ultra-stickers

They're so sticky that they'll stick to non-stick spice pans.


They stick to no-fields.
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Re: Jessica to the Winds of Dune inconsistencies!

Postby merkin muffley » 20 Jun 2010 15:34

DuneFishUK wrote:you know if they understood any of the above they would have said it and repeated it. That they don't is either the art of subtlety (har har har) or cluelessness)

Lady Jessica stood in her chamber with the familiar packing wardrobe open before her. Its sides bore the stickers and date stamps of transport authorities, showing the many planets and star systems she had visited since the time she first left Wallach IX as a young woman to become the concubine of Duke Leto Atreides. Jessica had seen a great deal since then, had experienced supreme joy and profound tragedy.


As you've said, DuneFishUK, they're not doing any of this for any good reason, and the use of "stickers" is just thoughtless and lazy. Of all the ways you could give Jessica a moment of reflection, I'm hard-pressed to think of something that would be more banal or cheesy than having her read the stickers on her luggage. She's not really even reading them, actually, and they don't play an interesting part in anything that's happening. It's just another boring detail that's supposed to be evocative, but isn't, and you can't wait for the damned thing to be over. Except that when it's over, it's the same thing all over again. Kevin, just because the luggage "bore the stickers" doesn't make any of this shit active. This is tell, tell, tell. I think "bore" is the operative word here - (HIGH FIVE! :dance:).


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Re: Jessica to the Winds of Dune inconsistencies!

Postby Nekhrun » 20 Jun 2010 15:35

Freakzilla wrote:
Nekhrun wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:Ultra-stickers

They're so sticky that they'll stick to non-stick spice pans.


They stick to no-fields.

No-stickers!
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Re: Jessica to the Winds of Dune inconsistencies!

Postby Freakzilla » 20 Jun 2010 15:39

Nekhrun wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:
Nekhrun wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:Ultra-stickers

They're so sticky that they'll stick to non-stick spice pans.


They stick to no-fields.

No-stickers!


Brilliant! :lol:
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Re: Jessica to the Winds of Dune inconsistencies!

Postby Nekhrun » 20 Jun 2010 15:41

Freakzilla wrote:
Nekhrun wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:
Nekhrun wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:Ultra-stickers

They're so sticky that they'll stick to non-stick spice pans.


They stick to no-fields.

No-stickers!


Brilliant! :lol:

For all I know, I'm covered in them now!
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Re: Jessica to the Winds of Dune inconsistencies!

Postby merkin muffley » 20 Jun 2010 15:45

Nekhrun wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:
Nekhrun wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:
Nekhrun wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:Ultra-stickers

They're so sticky that they'll stick to non-stick spice pans.


They stick to no-fields.

No-stickers!


Brilliant! :lol:

For all I know, I'm covered in them now!

:lol: Now that would be an interesting way to use stickers in Dune.
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Re: Jessica to the Winds of Dune inconsistencies!

Postby Freakzilla » 20 Jun 2010 15:55

merkin muffley wrote:
Nekhrun wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:
Nekhrun wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:
Nekhrun wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:Ultra-stickers

They're so sticky that they'll stick to non-stick spice pans.


They stick to no-fields.

No-stickers!


Brilliant! :lol:

For all I know, I'm covered in them now!

:lol: Now that would be an interesting way to use stickers in Dune.


Writing better than Spanky and Bobo is...

Just.

That.

Easy.
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Re: Jessica to the Winds of Dune inconsistencies!

Postby SandChigger » 20 Jun 2010 16:36

dunaddict wrote:Oh, and can somebody post the English translation of my Dutch translation of the original English text please? Pleazzze
I would like to know if what I've read, was what they were saying and what I think they thought they were saying. Get it?
The "standing on his shoulder" and "picking up the pieces" stuff. Thank you.

Here you go:

Adaptation was a Bene Gesserit strength, one to which she had been born. Her brother had changed the human race forever, but Alia would take her place in history as well, since Paul had left her to pick up the pieces and arrange them as she saw fit.

If she could make the Imperium strong and enduring, historians might even elevate her above the stature of Muad'Dib. For her, it was a matter of diminishing Paul's memory in calculated ways, while brightening her own accomplishments. She would stand on his shoulders and benefit from his victories.



Edit: "the English translation of my Dutch translation of the original English text" ... Um, I posted the original English text instead of ... ooh, my head hurts! ;) :lol:
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Re: Jessica to the Winds of Dune inconsistencies!

Postby Freakzilla » 20 Jun 2010 16:59

English -> Dutch -> English via Babel Fish:

The adaptation was a sterkte of Bene Gesserit, one to which she had been born. Its brother had changed the humanity for always, but Alia its place in history would take also, since Paul her had left to take the pieces and them since to arrange she saw pasvorm. If she could make empire strongly and long-range, the historians her above the figure of Muad' even can raise; Dib. For its, was it a question of to reduce Paul' s memory in calculated manners, whereas clearing up its own realisations. She would profit on its shoulders be itself and of its victories.
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Re: Jessica to the Winds of Dune inconsistencies!

Postby Lundse » 20 Jun 2010 17:00

merkin muffley wrote:As you've said, DuneFishUK, they're not doing any of this for any good reason, and the use of "stickers" is just thoughtless and lazy.


Absolutely incredible, I'd say. Frank crafted a far-future universe which felt feudal, through a host of subtle hints and obvious parallels. And this knob thinks luggage stickers is going to fit in? I am still not convinced this whole NuDune deal isn't a prank...

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Re: Jessica to the Winds of Dune inconsistencies!

Postby lotek » 20 Jun 2010 17:36

Freakzilla wrote:English -> Dutch -> English via Babel Fish:

The adaptation was a sterkte of Bene Gesserit, one to which she had been born. Its brother had changed the humanity for always, but Alia its place in history would take also, since Paul her had left to take the pieces and them since to arrange she saw pasvorm. If she could make empire strongly and long-range, the historians her above the figure of Muad' even can raise; Dib. For its, was it a question of to reduce Paul' s memory in calculated manners, whereas clearing up its own realisations. She would profit on its shoulders be itself and of its victories.



stop playing with your Babel Fish! ^^

@D.F.u.k.(yeah, someone must already have tried that acronym...):
Thanks for the transcription :)

DuneFishUK wrote:
lotek wrote:
DuneFishUK wrote:
- WHY stickers on luggage in a DUNE novel?

I'm still in two minds on this one, you're not the first to bring it up.

The Duniverse is full of bureaucracy (the best form of dictatorship) so forms, declarations and tearable stickers that you can't put back together would (in my mind) be a constant part of space travel and travel in general.

However, I have read the passage with it in - and Spanky and Bobo I don't think understand any of that. Or maybe it was something that Brian wrote, then KJA just glossed over because he didn't understand it.


If you search for the word "paper" in Dune you find several occurrences that suggest the fact it is still in use(the note from the Fremen to Leto, the spice paper where Yueh hides the ducal signet and a few more)
Nothing about stickers though ;)

You have read that passage could you copy it here?

Someone posted it here a while back.

I don't think the absence of a thing proves it doesn't exist in the Dune universe - Are there really that many scenes in Dune that would have been improved with the addition of stickers? (No! Go away Keith!)

And also in Dune (like the 1950s) travel is a luxury for the wealthy. I can imagine mid-level merchants etc might keep stickers on their luggage as souvenirs and status symbols. But I don't think that fits with Jessica's character.

In fact if it were brought up any other way it would have been fine really, but two things bother me, first the use of the word "sticker"(while listening to her Walkman or answering her mobile?), and second as Merkin pointed out it is also lazy-ass work(damn sloppy).
I agree there must have been some way of sorting out the luggage for the commoners(the really rich would just have their own frigate(s) as one big piece of... :)
But this is Jessica! The mother of the future KH/Emperor, the woman that is going to be one of the forces that shape him into the "hero" he's going to become. And what does she ponder on??? Fucking stickers??? And I thought she came from a BG training school, as the Breeding Program meant her to have a daughter with the Duke. So the Breeding Mistresses are just going to let the potential grand mother of their KH(if that daughter had had a child with Feyd)_I have no quote right now but I seem to remember that the BG knew they were very close(maybe in the Appendix?)to their goal... so they are going to let that all important woman wander around from planet to planet lardylardy I'm so happy?
No
Fucking
Way
!


Right, found it in the PDF - judge for yourself (It actually isn't quite as bad as I remembered it - the mention of transport authorities saves it a bit... But you know if they understood any of the above they would have said it and repeated it. That they don't is either the art of subtlety (har har har) or cluelessness)

Lady Jessica stood in her chamber with the familiar packing wardrobe open before her. Its sides bore the stickers and date stamps of transport authorities, showing the many planets and star systems she had visited since the time she first left Wallach IX as a young woman to become the concubine of Duke Leto Atreides. Jessica had seen a great deal since then, had experienced supreme joy and profound tragedy.
Spice is the worm's gonads.

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Re: Jessica to the Winds of Dune inconsistencies!

Postby dunaddict » 20 Jun 2010 17:37

Thanks for finding the original text sandchigger! Especially because I forgot to mention the chapter.... :shock:
What do you think guys, is this piece yet another poorly disguised comment on their 'reimagining' of the Dune canon?

When I listened to those interviews in the other thread I immediately thought of this sentence.
it was a matter of diminishing Paul's memory in calculated ways, while brightening her own accomplishments.


Alia would take her place in history as well, since Paul had left her to pick up the pieces and arrange them as she saw fit.

That's right, as they see fit.

By the way SC, are you still working on the WoD-comments section on your blog? Last time I checked you stopped in the first Young-Paul chapter.

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Re: Jessica to the Winds of Dune inconsistencies!

Postby SandChigger » 20 Jun 2010 19:39

dunaddict wrote:By the way SC, are you still working on the WoD-comments section on your blog? Last time I checked you stopped in the first Young-Paul chapter.

The synopsis? Yeah, I need to get that finished. It looks like I added something in March, and the timestamp entry in the source says I did something to it at the beginning of May. Probably the March edit was this:

(A note on the composition of this synopsis: I first began working on this in August 2009, but once Ampoliros began publishing his excellent series of reading notes on the book over on Jacurutu, finishing it seemed less urgent.)

I want to get it finished and go back and do the ones for the Legends books (provided some kind soul out there doesn't take pity on me and just shoot me first! :lol: ) in preparation for the "Great Stools"! :P (I think I've blocked or forgotten some of the horrid details.)
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Re: Jessica to the Winds of Dune inconsistencies!

Postby Nekhrun » 20 Jun 2010 21:07

Freakzilla wrote:Writing better than Spanky and Bobo is...

Just.

That.

Easy.

No shit. These guys take a year to fuck around and "edit" each other's writing, and that's the best they can come up with? Hard to believe that the shit they write is even possible.
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