What is the worst McDune yet?

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twistedmentat
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Re: What is the worst McDune yet?

Postby twistedmentat » 15 Jul 2010 06:48

oh yeah and the whole tachyon net thing.....blatant star trek ripoff.......LaForge:"captain the warp core is shot", Picard:" do we have any options?", LaForge:"no captain were doomed(dramatic pause)..... wait if we could construct some sort of tachyon net,field,stream,etc out of some old phaser parts and a spare jeffries tube we might be able to pull through...." If their are any hardcore trekkies out their that might have some statistics or metrics on how many times a tachyon net,field,stream,shield,beam or whatever other medium can be constructed with tachyons saved the day in star trek i'd love to see them.

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Re: What is the worst McDune yet?

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 15 Jul 2010 10:14

twistedmentat wrote:oh yeah and the whole tachyon net thing.....blatant star trek ripoff.......LaForge:"captain the warp core is shot", Picard:" do we have any options?", LaForge:"no captain were doomed(dramatic pause)..... wait if we could construct some sort of tachyon net,field,stream,etc out of some old phaser parts and a spare jeffries tube we might be able to pull through...." If their are any hardcore trekkies out their that might have some statistics or metrics on how many times a tachyon net,field,stream,shield,beam or whatever other medium can be constructed with tachyons saved the day in star trek i'd love to see them.


That's actually something FH came up with, not the hack. I thought it was a little goofy myself. Trek doesn't have a monopoly on tachyons though, they're very common in SF.
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Re: What is the worst McDune yet?

Postby SandChigger » 15 Jul 2010 12:14

:hand:

Careful, FH never once actually uses the phrase "tachyon net". ;)

(Maybe we need a smiley variation on the biohazard symbol meaning "Caution: Possible McDune Contamination!" :D )

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Re: What is the worst McDune yet?

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 15 Jul 2010 12:20

What does he say then? Is this me being contaminated, or semantics? I haven't read Heretics for a while.
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Re: What is the worst McDune yet?

Postby SadisticCynic » 15 Jul 2010 12:23

As I recall, either Teg or Duncan thinks about the use of 'techies' in Holtzman's theory and how it might apply to weapons manufacture. I'm not sure they actually apply it to how the net works though.
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Re: What is the worst McDune yet?

Postby SandChigger » 15 Jul 2010 12:48

FH in CH:D wrote: Resonances and tachyon theory held his [=Duncan's] attention for a time. Tachyon theory figured in Holzmann's original design. "Techys," Holzmann had called his energy source.

A wave system that ignored light speed's limits. Light speed obviously did not limit foldspace ships. Techys?

Then about 6 lines beneath that:
Someone "out there" has found another way to use Holzmann's theories! It was a full Mentat Projection. He knew its accuracy from the new questions it produced.

I figure this is where the Dymnastic Duo got the idea of the tachyon net.
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Re: What is the worst McDune yet?

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 15 Jul 2010 13:34

Is it possible he was referring to something other than the net, or that definitely what is being referred to?
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Re: What is the worst McDune yet?

Postby SandChigger » 15 Jul 2010 20:03

To me, it not clear that he's definitely referring to anything. :?

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Re: What is the worst McDune yet?

Postby merkin muffley » 15 Jul 2010 21:45

It's hard for me to imagine anything worse than Paul of Dune, but I haven't read Sandworms, and can see no reason why I would. I wouldn't touch a hot stove twice.
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Re: What is the worst McDune yet?

Postby Robspierre » 15 Jul 2010 21:59

I would have to say the worse is all the ret-conning and back peddling they have to do is the worse writing that they do.

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Re: What is the worst McDune yet?

Postby Superdog » 15 Jul 2010 22:45

The thing that really gets me about "Dune 7" is how they expanded it into two novels and basically nothing happens for 3/4 of both books. They spend huuuge amounts of time with the growing the gholas, every other page is 15 years laters, 16 years later, etc. And which ghola will we grow now? And then the gholas serve no purpose in the plot and and Norma Cenva solves all the problems, regardless of anything the main characters did and then a deus ex machine is introduced by way of Erasmus saying, oh btw, I killed all the other bad guys with a thought.

Jesus mcfuck that is a bad ending by any standard.

All of main characters actions irrelevant: check.

deus ex machina: check.

Huge amount of plot ultimately has no conclusion: check

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Re: What is the worst McDune yet?

Postby SandChigger » 16 Jul 2010 00:57

And fanboys (like arny) ate it up and defend it with every solitary brain cell in their noggins! :lol:

It would actually be hilarious if it weren't so damned sad.

(Btw, I'll be pinching "Jesus McFuck", if you don't mind. :lol: )
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Re: What is the worst McDune yet?

Postby twistedmentat » 16 Jul 2010 02:37

You mean their are actually people out their that defend the hack rubbish???? I've seen positive reviews and such from casual so called fans, but i've never seen anyone (other then the hacks) try to intelligently defend any of the new books. Where do these people lurk, and where can i read some of their arguments? I don't see how a real Dune fan, who has read the true 6 multiple times, could in any way shape form or fashion defend the superflous 10 (jesus are their really 10 of them???? when did the first one come out???? .....Where was I? Oh yeah..). Are they on that dunenovels bs sight? What are their arguments? Someone point me in the right direction. I'm "embarrashamed" to admit that i've read all of the hack stack except the WoD. I don't know why? I remember seeing HA when it first came out, and i was so excited at the prospect of reading about the origins of my most beloved sci-fi characters. So i bought it and read it. It was poorly written and you could see the beginnings of an inconsistency trend. Yet i read HH and continued to read the mass production of unintelligable fecal spewings they churned out every couple years, each time being more dissapointed/offended then the first. I think it slowly became a morbid curiosity about,"hey how much worse could this book be compared to the previous one in terms of style,content, and maintaining cannon accuracy?"In that respect the hacks always delivered. I pose this question to my new fellow fanatics: what do you think is the single worst crime perpetrated by the hacks, in any of the books, in terms of plot, character, cannon fallacy, coined term, etc.(excluding the whole FH Dune saga is actually Irulan propaganda in PoD thus we can manipulate as we see fit BS, cause that one is the worst)?? Is it "ultraspice", perhaps water worms, or anything to do with Norma C.??? I'm curious to see what you all have to say. PS i'm kinda new to forums, is this post waaaay too long, i'm still unsure of forum protocol.

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Re: What is the worst McDune yet?

Postby SandChigger » 16 Jul 2010 04:13

Nah, it's not too long...but it helps in the reading if you kinda form paragraphs with a blank line here and there! :lol:

twistedmentat wrote:You mean their are actually people out their that defend the hack rubbish???? I've seen positive reviews and such from casual so called fans, but i've never seen anyone (other then the hacks) try to intelligently defend any of the new books. Where do these people lurk, and where can i read some of their arguments?

DumbNovels.com :)

I don't see how a real Dune fan, who has read the true 6 multiple times, could in any way shape form or fashion defend the superflous 10 (jesus are their really 10 of them???? when did the first one come out???? .....Where was I? Oh yeah..).

Yeah, it kinda boggles the imagination, don't it?

What are their arguments? Someone point me in the right direction.

There's an initial list of McDune fan rationalizations here on my blog. (Actually, I think we may have restarted it here somewhere...? Anybody got the link?)

I'm "embarrashamed" to admit that i've read all of the hack stack except the WoD. I don't know why? I remember seeing HA when it first came out, and i was so excited at the prospect of reading about the origins of my most beloved sci-fi characters. So i bought it and read it. It was poorly written and you could see the beginnings of an inconsistency trend. Yet i read HH and continued to read the mass production of unintelligable fecal spewings they churned out every couple years, each time being more dissapointed/offended then the first.

The first thing I read was The Butlerian Jihad. (And it sucked dead kulon balls through a stillsuit drinking tube.) I was in Japan when House Atreides came out, and wasn't really aware of the hype. HA (and maybe HH) was already in paperback before I ever saw them. I was hoping for something like Tolkien's son was doing, but it was obvious that wasn't what the Herberts were doing. And who is this fucker Anderson? Never heard of him!

I eventually went back and read everything, just to silence the idiots who complained I hadn't even read the books, so how could I call them shit? :roll:

I think it slowly became a morbid curiosity about,"hey how much worse could this book be compared to the previous one in terms of style,content, and maintaining cannon accuracy?"In that respect the hacks always delivered.

I understand that completely. Unfortunately. :(

I pose this question to my new fellow fanatics: what do you think is the single worst crime perpetrated by the hacks, in any of the books, in terms of plot, character, cannon fallacy, coined term, etc.

I'll have to get back to you on this one. Because it kinda changes for me from day to day... and by book! :P

For Winds, for a long time, it was the fact that a linguistically ignorant piece of shit like Kevin J. Anderson thought he could pass off a string of gibberish as a name in "the language of the desert."

Ye nether gods, how I wish a space rock would fall on that fuckers bald head! :twisted:
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Re: What is the worst McDune yet?

Postby lotek » 16 Jul 2010 06:07

I stopped after Hunters, which was my personal choice for worse mcdune, the handling of the handlers was too put it mildly a steaming pile of stinking shit!

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Preeq arguments

Nekhrun wrote:Found them on DN. Chig Compiled them:

"A Resource for Dune Fans of All Orientations"

(With a nod to Mastah B for the idea.)

Purposes of this thread:

- To compile a list of (less-than-persuasive) arguments and rationalizations commonly used by fans of the new books, in the hope that such a list will help reduce the amount of repetition of same in the future and promote the development of new points of view, permitting discussion to evolve to a higher level

Please put anything you can remember in the comments and I'll edit them into this first post. (Suggestions as to ordering also welcome!)

"ARGUMENTS" AND RATIONALIZATIONS

Edited to update list

1. "If you don't like them, don't read them."

2. "Of course the style is different: they're different authors! D'uh!"

3. "They have the Outline and Notes!"

4. "Gosh darn it all, Brian is Frank Herbert's son. If he doesn't know what Frank intended for the series, who does?!" (AKA "Dune over Wheaties")

5. "The books are best-sellers worldwide!"

5.a. "But KJA is a bestseller in many, many, many, many Science Fiction universes! Of course he is the best man for the job!"

6. "Frank intended the Enemy to be machines from the start. Anyone can see that!"

7. "Come on, they're just books! They're for entertainment, for chrissakes! Get over yourself!"

8. ""But they are bringing in younger fans, and that is always a good thing!" / "Sales of the originals have increased since the new books appeared!"

9. "You're just angry because the new books don't agree with your preconceived notions!"

10. "Just be glad that you've got some new Dune stories!"

11. "They own the copyright, so they can decide what is canon and what isn't!"

12. "Frank's books contained inconsistencies, TOO!"

13. "If you think you can write better, then why don't you?"

13.a. "Only a writer can criticize the work of other writers!" (AKA "The Ganymede Gambit")

14. "The new books are easier to understand, so they're better as an introduction into the Duniverse." / "They are just trying to explain things that Frank didn't cover very well, or things that fans found confusing."

15. "Any inconsistencies are inconsequential and don't effect the story."

16. "Kevin and Brian are really nice guys."

17. "KJA's Special Forces don't receive any payment for positive comments or reviews they post across the internet."


18. "These are just our opinions so why don't you haters just quit posting your negativity?"


With Comments:

List Explanation, Notes, Commentary, & Responses

1. "If you don't like them, don't read them."

It is difficult to imagine this being used by a true Dune fan, because anyone who can think this obviously doesn't understand the motivations of a true fan; namely, that any suggestion that a story or book contains any hint of Frank Herbert creates an irresistable need to read it and see for oneself.

There is also the "Hope springs eternal" factor: Even many detractors have noted an improvement over time in the quality of the books. How can you know that you won't like a new book if you don't read it?

2. "Of course the style is different: they're different authors! D'uh!"

This argument is often supplemented with "Nobody could write these as well as Frank could" which KJA then further supplements with "I wish Frank would have been around to write these himself; but since he isn't, and Brian and I are the biggest Dune fans, we wanted to see how it all ends"

It also ignores the fact that there are good authors and bad. And that the talents and skills of even good authors may not be appropriate for the telling of certain tales.

And for many Old Dune fans, the writing style is not the issue.

3. "They have the Outline and Notes!"

Those who have read The Road to Dune will note that Frank Herbert didn’t always follow his own outline, and some of the plot points he left out are much, much worse than the final product. Beyond that, Kevin and Brian have admitted to mixing in their own ideas (Erasmus). Without public access to the Outline and Notes, there is no way to verify that any given story element is as Frank Herbert intended.

4. "Gosh darn it all, Brian is Frank Herbert's son. If he doesn't know what Frank intended for the series, who does?!"

"Gosh darn it all, George Lucas is himself, and he still couldn’t make a good Star Wars prequel. Point in case, I don’t care who wrote the new books; even if Frank wrote them, they [might] still be bad."

Knowledge is unfortunately not always translated into action. Unless Brian goes on record on specific issues, there is no reason to accept this blanket justification for everything in the new books.

And unfortunately, at present we hear too little directly from Brian Herbert.

5. "The books are best-sellers worldwide!"

The best-selling book worldwide in history is the Bible, and the Harry Potter books hold six spots on the top 20. Popularity does not correlate to quality.

5.a. "But KJA is a bestseller in many, many, many, many Science Fiction universes! Of course he is the best man for the job!"

Kevin's record as a prolific and popular science-fiction writer cannot be denied. It must also be noted, however, that the evaluation of his works is not unanimous. Kevin seems to excel in the creation of action-filled, plot-driven "soft" science-fiction novels...a genre which differs from the original Dune novels in important respects.

6. "Frank intended the Enemy to be machines from the start. Anyone can see that!"

Except where he explicitly states that the Enemy (Daniel and Marty) is Face Dancers, at the end of Chapter House.

From the start, the "enemy" was man's dependance on machines, not the machines themselves.

FH in Dune wrote:"Once men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them."


7. "Come on, they're just books! They're for entertainment, for chrissakes! Get over yourself!"

Counter-argument A: They don’t entertain, thus, they fail in their purpose. That makes them bad books.

Counter-argument B: SC’s spiel about how authors who contradict themselves are careless and just bad writers. (See (12) below.)

Counter-argument C: If a person goes to see a movie or buys a DVD or CD and ends up not liking it, that person is going to tell all their friends that they didn't like it and why. That goes for books, too.

8. ""But they are bringing in younger fans, and that is always a good thing!" / "Sales of the originals have increased since the new books appeared!"

While this is a good thing, it doesn’t justify the new books. Mention violates Godwin’s Law, but the Holocaust brought a lot of attention to the horrors of anti-Semitism. The analogy is obvious.

It seems apparent from discussion on this forum and others that newcomers to the Duniverse who enter through the portal of the new books have a much different view of the Duniverse than older fans believe FH intended. Due to the inconsistancies, a lot must be explained to these newcomers.

9. "You're just angry because the new books don't agree with your preconceived notions!"

"One of the reasons I liked Dune in the first place was that it made me question my preconceived notions. Beyond that, we aren’t complaining about what we would PREFER to have happened, we’re complaining about inconsistencies, absurdities, and general bad writing. If the story was well-written, but didn’t quite take the direction I wanted it to, I would have gotten over it."

"The bad writting doesn't bother me as the appearant lack of homework. I expect an author of Dune books to know them at least as well as we do."

10. "Just be glad that you've got some new Dune stories!"

This is a variation of "Something is always better than nothing" (or "Oatmeal is better than no meal") and can usually be silenced with a few well chosen, silly examples.

Also, it is possible to be glad that the new generation of Dune readers will have a completely different impression of what Dune is like and about?

11. "They own the copyright, so they can decide what is canon and what isn't!"

They can claim canon all they want, but canon can’t contradict canon. The Pope can’t tell us that Jesus was lying. They aren’t Frank, so it isn’t canon.

Copyright really only determines what can be published, especially for profit. Canon cannot be decreed by group fiat. Sure, the HLP can say, "This is canon, this isn't!" all it wants. But nothing compels us to empower them by agreeing.

12. "Frank's books contained inconsistencies, TOO!"

(Note that this response implicitly admits that there are inconsistencies in the new books.)

It's impossible to publish a book containing zero errors. This has always been true (more so in the past when books were copied by hand) and presumably always will be; we live in an entropic universe, noise always gets into the signal. But the fact that someone else made mistakes with regard to content (not simple typographical errors) in no way mitigates the responsibility of an author to make sure that his or her work is as internally consistent as possible.

Frank Herbert wrote the "Original Six" in a time when word-processing technology was still essentially in its infancy. With the text search technology we have today, no author has any excuse for making sloppy errors in consistency and continuity. Such things are an indication of a lazy and/or bad author.

Finally, FH's inconsistancies don't change the fundamental elements of the story and can therefore be considered minor.

13. "If you think you can write better, then why don't you?"

Some people do. We have the fanfiction forum for that. But most of us never said we could do better(although it’s not such a ridiculous proposition…). Furthermore, we still have a right to critique the “canon” works that the HLP presents to us, as nothing we write will have the copyright or blessings of the HLP.

"I'm not a professional chef, so in a resturaunt, if my food tastes bad, am I supposed to march into the kitchen and cook my own meal?"

13.a. "Only a writer can criticize the work of other writers!"

Roger Ebert doesn’t direct movies. Howard Bloom doesn’t write literature. Most critics don’t actually do the thing they’re criticizing, but they do know about it, which makes their critical remarks valid.

"I'm not a professional chef, so in a resturaunt, can I complain if my food tastes bad?"

14. "The new books are easier to understand, so they're better as an introduction into the Duniverse." / "They are just trying to explain things that Frank didn't cover very well, or things that fans found confusing."

Many of us first read Dune when we were in our teens. It was all the introduction we needed; what's wrong with you?

15. "Any inconsistencies are inconsequential and don't effect the story."

Even a single inconsistency is of consequence if it causes just one reader to stop and think "WTF?" because any disruption of the willing suspension of disbelief lessens the impact and effectiveness of the story.

And in the opinion of some fans, some of the issues in the new books are serious, namely the machines/robots in the sequels, the backpeddling Ixian technology, etc.

16. "Kevin and Brian are really nice guys."

This one is complete B.S. While the two may be nice during fan interactions or friendly to those they know this certainly does not hold up to close scrutiny. KJA is a bully, and a coward who lets others do his dirty work for him. He continues to disrespect the memory of Frank Herbert in favor of his own insertions into the Dune Universe. Real nice.

17. "KJA's Special Forces don't receive any payment for positive comments or reviews they post across the internet."


KJA wrote:We've listed a bunch of possible things to do, some of them quite easy. Or if you do something else not on the list, we're open to that, too. When you've racked up five things, send the list to [email address], and we'll send your Thank You. We will probably be expanding and modifying the list as this takes shape. (Oh, and you don't cancel your points once you claim a gift...they keep adding up.)


18. "These are just our opinions so why don't you haters just quit posting your negativity?"

An obvious contradiction. They want to be free to voice their opinions but shut down everyone else who disagrees with them. They certainly don't want to address any of the inconsistencies within NuDune so they resort to the arguments on this list.


And of course:
http://chiggerblog.hairyticksofdune.net/blog/?page_id=8
Last edited by lotek on 16 Jul 2010 06:12, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What is the worst McDune yet?

Postby Serkanner » 16 Jul 2010 06:11

I stopped buying and reading their crap after "the battle of Corrin" ... The last thing still to do is burn the fuckers.
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Re: What is the worst McDune yet?

Postby twistedmentat » 16 Jul 2010 06:27

AHHHH paragraphs(thanks chigger).....makes sense, i was educated in the deep south folks so please bare with me. As for the hack defense list, i'm embarrassed for them really, my personal fav though "if you dont like them, dont read them" you've got to be a fucking moron if that makes any kind of sense. Thats kind of like a screen door on a submarine, or a solar powered flash light.

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Re: What is the worst McDune yet?

Postby SandChigger » 16 Jul 2010 10:29

I believe KJA uses a variant of that one himself. ;)

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Re: What is the worst McDune yet?

Postby TheDukester » 16 Jul 2010 10:40

"Gosh darn it all!" :lol:

That one always gets me.
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Re: What is the worst McDune yet?

Postby Freakzilla » 16 Jul 2010 11:56

twistedmentat wrote:AHHHH paragraphs(thanks chigger).....makes sense, i was educated in the deep south folks so please bare with me.


They taught me about paragraphs in school. Maybe you just weren't paying attention. :P
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Re: What is the worst McDune yet?

Postby SandRider » 16 Jul 2010 14:43

sounds like he went to one of them there hippie-nudist schools,
so he mighta been a tad distracted ...
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Re: What is the worst McDune yet?

Postby SandRider » 16 Jul 2010 15:08

as to the worst of what Spanky did to Dune,
it's the complete misunderstanding of Marty & Daniel ...

"Frank's Dune as Irulan Propaganda" is just so petty and stupid, I can overlook it;
remember that Spanky's emotional level is 12yo-Bratty-Girl, so alot of his responses
sound like "NUH-UH!" and "Did not, NO U!" ... in his own little twisted mind, he
believes he silenced all critics who begin with "Well, in Frank's Dune it says ..."

and I don't think this was so much an evil, calculated attempt to subvert Frank's
books into his own; Spanky was stuck on the Young Paul's Adventures with the
Flying Circus idea, and so threw out the first rationalization that occurred to him
while "hiking" down to the Baskin Robbins ...

the first page of Frank's Dune says Caladan was the birthworld of Paul Atreides,
but this is quoted from Irulan's Histories, ergo Irulan's Histories have to be explained
away ... also, when Spanky thinks he has "solved" a difficult "plot point" with some
"brainstormed" half-assed idea, he is through, done, that horse is in the barn,
and he never revisits the idea or questions it .... actually, he forgets it and never
thinks about it again, or just can't remember and so will often contradict himself ...

the misrepresentation of the nature of the Butlerian Jihad is sort of the same thing,
I think ... Spanky was stuck on doing a Men vs. Machine whiz-bang Terminator story ...
altho I've not really seen where he defends against Mohiam's "Other men with machines"
quote from Dune, and since serious debate and questioning premises is not allowed on
OCD forums, we may never know ....

but it's just real fucking hard to explain away Frank's obvious intent of the nature
of Marty & Daniel ... except that, again, Spanky was too stuck on the Terminator
storyline ....

the Norma-oracle bullshit is par for the course; Spanky's a talentless copy&paste
hack, the deus-ex-machina was the best he could come up with if he was going
to stay on the schedule ... word-count and meeting the deadline is much more
important to him that content or rationality ....

same with the Duncan as uberKiwiHack .... quick and easy, and ultimately pointless
to the overall story of Dune ....

but twisting Marty & Daniel from Independent FaceDancers to ancient sentient robots
is the worst offense against Frank and Dune, in my humble opinion ....
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Re: What is the worst McDune yet?

Postby DuneFishUK » 16 Jul 2010 19:50

Grunters and Sadworms are two books I will never read.

lotek wrote:
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Superdog
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Re: What is the worst McDune yet?

Postby Superdog » 17 Jul 2010 00:00

The other thing that really bugs me, other than the enormously over-inflated page count, is the desire to tie all the ED novels into each other. I suppose this is to make the continuity stronger but when you read them in order it just seems absurd. Case in point from Dune 7.

Ok, the gholas. We know from CH:D that Scytale has the material to make gholas from pretty much every previous character. Presumably this would have been a big plot point. BH&KJA decide they want the bad guys to have access to the same material. So they say, we found genetic material inside a dead master and grew a new Baron Harkonnen. I'm cool with that. We've established the Tlielaxlu have genetic material from all the characters, and bringing the Baron back for the last story has a certain quality to it, as he was the only flat out pure evil villain in the series.

And then they decide they want to bring back Paul as well. A Paul that will be raised by the Baron. So why in the name of God's Purple Fuck do they get the genetic material to make a Paul ghola from a knife on Caladan used in an assassination attempt in Paul of Dune that was given to Leto by the Emperor in House Atreides and then given back to the Emperor in House Corrino and then given to Count Fenring in Paul of Dune?

IF THEY'RE GOING TO HAVE THE BAD GUYS MAKE A BARON GHOLA FROM MATERIAL FOUND INSIDE A DEAD MASTER WHY THE HELL DIDN'T THEY JUST HAVE THEIR PAUL GHOLA COME FROM THE SAME PLACE?

Instead they have to pad the plot even more with this ridiculous knife that gets incorporated into every damn book they write?!?

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lotek
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Re: What is the worst McDune yet?

Postby lotek » 17 Jul 2010 06:29

DuneFishUK wrote:Grunters and Sadworms are two books I will never read.

lotek wrote:
List Explanation, Notes, Commentary, & Responses

Why are you so small?


my compulsive reading got the best of me this time... What a waste such a short time!

Superdog wrote:The other thing that really bugs me, other than the enormously over-inflated page count, is the desire to tie all the ED novels into each other. I suppose this is to make the continuity stronger but when you read them in order it just seems absurd. Case in point from Dune 7.

Ok, the gholas. We know from CH:D that Scytale has the material to make gholas from pretty much every previous character. Presumably this would have been a big plot point. BH&KJA decide they want the bad guys to have access to the same material. So they say, we found genetic material inside a dead master and grew a new Baron Harkonnen. I'm cool with that. We've established the Tlielaxlu have genetic material from all the characters, and bringing the Baron back for the last story has a certain quality to it, as he was the only flat out pure evil villain in the series.

And then they decide they want to bring back Paul as well. A Paul that will be raised by the Baron. So why in the name of God's Purple Fuck do they get the genetic material to make a Paul ghola from a knife on Caladan used in an assassination attempt in Paul of Dune that was given to Leto by the Emperor in House Atreides and then given back to the Emperor in House Corrino and then given to Count Fenring in Paul of Dune?

IF THEY'RE GOING TO HAVE THE BAD GUYS MAKE A BARON GHOLA FROM MATERIAL FOUND INSIDE A DEAD MASTER WHY THE HELL DIDN'T THEY JUST HAVE THEIR PAUL GHOLA COME FROM THE SAME PLACE?

Instead they have to pad the plot even more with this ridiculous knife that gets incorporated into every damn book they write?!?


they're stupid and their audience even more so...

and because they do think they're so clever they don't see the unprotected side they offer :)
A bit lke in chess when you think you've been so cunning with that check from your queen and that you didn't see was opened to a pawn... you think you're so smart until the shit hits the fan!

And also probably because of the fact that they say the word concordance but they don't really know what it means ;)
Spice is the worm's gonads.