Marie Fenring Vs. Ender Wiggin. From Dumb-Novels.com

    Abandon all sanity ye who enter here

Moderators: Omphalos, Freakzilla, ᴶᵛᵀᴬ

User avatar
SandChigger
KJASF Ground Zero
Posts: 14492
Joined: 08 Feb 2008 22:29
Location: A continuing state of irritation
Contact:

Postby SandChigger » 22 Mar 2009 09:42

Redstar wrote:Although rare, identical twins can be of the opposite gender due to environmental factors affecting phenotype behavior or the deactivation of certain X chromosomes. Identical twins aren't exactly identical anyways, with a small percentage of "junk" genes that can influence final development.

Then Leto was the odd one, the result of "environmental factors" (like the contraceptive and excessive spice). You can subtract, but you can't add. (Where does the rest of the XX come from if starting out with identical XY males? Unless you assume abnormal XXY?) And Paul foresaw a daughter, not a son. ;)

Not only that, but there is the possibility of half (or semi)-identical twins, which is the result of an egg splitting and both becoming fertilized by two separate sperm. The eggs would have identical DNA, while the two sperm have minute differences between theirs and, if one is XX and the other XY, could result in opposite sex identical twins.

You mean if one is X and one is Y ... if you're talking about the sperm. Right?

Either way, even two identical eggs + two different sperm = non-identical DNA.

But let's play it this way:

How much of that was known at the time Herbert was writing the books and could have been known to him? And is there any evidence that he was thinking of something so involved?

I would think that a breeding program encompassing hundreds of generations for the sole purpose of bringing about the unique capabilities of a KH would make such circumstances more likely.

Why?

In either case Ghanima would share the DNA it takes to be a KH and be a "true" female KH, ...

Really? In the second case the DNA is not identical; how can you be sure the important bits are shared?

... or in an extreme and more likely scenario would only be biologically female, but have a neurological makeup somewhere between male and female. That neurological difference could be key.

Extreme and more likely? Why more likely? (And if more likely, why extreme?)

If she were biologically female but neurologically in-between she wouldn't be a "'true' female" anything.

But explain "female KH". How would such a being differ from a "normal", male KH?

User avatar
Redstar
Posts: 1202
Joined: 25 Feb 2009 04:13

Postby Redstar » 22 Mar 2009 13:54

SandChigger wrote:
Redstar wrote:Although rare, identical twins can be of the opposite gender due to environmental factors affecting phenotype behavior or the deactivation of certain X chromosomes. Identical twins aren't exactly identical anyways, with a small percentage of "junk" genes that can influence final development.

Then Leto was the odd one, the result of "environmental factors" (like the contraceptive and excessive spice). You can subtract, but you can't add. (Where does the rest of the XX come from if starting out with identical XY males? Unless you assume abnormal XXY?) And Paul foresaw a daughter, not a son. ;)

I forgot about that prediction, so that is a hole.

SandChigger wrote:
Redstar wrote:Not only that, but there is the possibility of half (or semi)-identical twins, which is the result of an egg splitting and both becoming fertilized by two separate sperm. The eggs would have identical DNA, while the two sperm have minute differences between theirs and, if one is XX and the other XY, could result in opposite sex identical twins.

You mean if one is X and one is Y ... if you're talking about the sperm. Right?

Either way, even two identical eggs + two different sperm = non-identical DNA.

But let's play it this way:

How much of that was known at the time Herbert was writing the books and could have been known to him? And is there any evidence that he was thinking of something so involved?

Yeah, I'm talking about sperm.

My point with semi-identical twins is that they share more DNA (around 75%) than fraternal twins (around 50%) and more than single-birthed siblings, which might be enough male DNA shared in the female twin to produce a KH. I didn't mean that they had to be completely identical; just enough.

I should probably specify when I'm actually just speculating instead of seriously applying ideas to the Duniverse. In this particular case I started trying to find a possible scenario because some people think KJA meant Marie to be a female KH. Use some brains and figure it out in a way he obviously didn't. This is all just for fun, Chig. :D

SandChigger wrote:
Redstar wrote:I would think that a breeding program encompassing hundreds of generations for the sole purpose of bringing about the unique capabilities of a KH would make such circumstances more likely.

Why?

Because the KH is a male that can accomplish things usually allowed only females due to biological and/or neurological differences (keep in mind that a KH is not only a male with dual-sexual OM, but there are no males with only one line of OM. So KHs are twice as unusual, unless there were male BG that could look back along their female lines and not male). So a breeding program to create the neuro-biological differences necessary in a male would possibly make other problems more likely, case in point Hasimir Fenring the "almost" KH that's also a genetic eunuch.

SandChigger wrote:
Redstar wrote:In either case Ghanima would share the DNA it takes to be a KH and be a "true" female KH, ...

Really? In the second case the DNA is not identical; how can you be sure the important bits are shared?

That's why a "female" KH would be such a rarity. The important bits wouldn't always be shared, otherwise we'd have opposite-sex twinnings resulting in female KHs all the time.

SandChigger wrote:
Redstar wrote:... or in an extreme and more likely scenario would only be biologically female, but have a neurological makeup somewhere between male and female. That neurological difference could be key.


Extreme and more likely? Why more likely? (And if more likely, why extreme?)

If she were biologically female but neurologically in-between she wouldn't be a "'true' female" anything.

But explain "female KH". How would such a being differ from a "normal", male KH?

Under these circumstances an intersexed birth could be produced with the male becoming the true KH (like Leto II) and the intersexed child being a semi-female KH. Obviously it wouldn't be a "true" female KH, but could be biologically female-dominant, but with a male brain. This would give the appearance of a "female KH". This is more extreme because of the obvious results, and more likely because this happens more often than a purely chromosomal opposite-sex identical twin.

It could be speculated (we're still having fun here) that Fenring was a twin-birth with his male counterpart dying early in development and he himself being the intersexed child. Eunuch refers to an inability to reproduce through artificial means, personal choice, or genetic fault. This could mean that Fenring is a non-reproductive hermaphrodite, with the outward appearance of male and neurologically female. This explains why he's a failed KH, and under the right conditions the opposite would happen and produce an outwardly female/neurologically male "female KH".

I have no idea how they would differ from a standard KH. That's for the fanfiction writers (or KJA in the epic revelation of the Marie ghola in Throne of Dune :roll:) to decide.
Last edited by Redstar on 22 Mar 2009 14:11, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Freakzilla
Lead Singer and Driver of the Winnebego
Posts: 18340
Joined: 05 Feb 2008 01:27
Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA
Contact:

Postby Freakzilla » 22 Mar 2009 14:11

OMG, I had no idea here was an actual Dune discussion going on here... sneaky.

I just scanned the topic briefly, but one thing I'd like to point out:

Kwisatz Haderach is a Bene Gesserit specific term refering to a male with both feminine and masculine Other Memory.

Applying the term to a female is like talking about my menstrual cramps, OK?

ALL REVEREND MOTHERS HAVE ACCESS TO MASCULINE OM!

They have been trained to block it out and not use it. This is why the pre-born or abomination are killed out of hand, they do not have the training that tells them to avoid the male ancestral memories and usually become possessed by a dominant male ancestor. See Alia.

The male preborn have a better chance at remaining sane because males are takers and can fight the male personas, as SC pointed out, but the risk of possession is still there. See Leto II.

Female KH is a contradiction in terms.
Image
Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
~Pink Snowman

User avatar
Redstar
Posts: 1202
Joined: 25 Feb 2009 04:13

Postby Redstar » 22 Mar 2009 14:18

Freakzilla wrote:ALL REVEREND MOTHERS HAVE ACCESS TO MASCULINE OM!

They have been trained to block it out and not use it. This is why the pre-born or abomination are killed out of hand, they do not have the training that tells them to avoid the male ancestral memories and usually become possessed by a dominant male ancestor. See Alia.

The male preborn have a better chance at remaining sane because males are takers and can fight the male personas, as SC pointed out, but the risk of possession is still there. See Leto II.

Female KH is a contradiction in terms.

I never suggested they didn't. It's obvious that RM can look through both sexual lines, but don't for fear of possession. A KH is a male that can look through both lines, which is doubly amazing because any male can't look don't down just one line. They can't access OM at all. KHs can do one thing RMs can't, and an unbelievable amount of things men can't.

My whole point here is under unique circumstances I've spelled out above it may be possible to twin an intersexed child with an outward female-appearance and a male brain to create a false female KH, and under extremely rare cases twin a purely-biological female with a male brain that would be a "true female KH".

User avatar
Freakzilla
Lead Singer and Driver of the Winnebego
Posts: 18340
Joined: 05 Feb 2008 01:27
Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA
Contact:

Postby Freakzilla » 22 Mar 2009 14:27

Redstar wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:ALL REVEREND MOTHERS HAVE ACCESS TO MASCULINE OM!

They have been trained to block it out and not use it. This is why the pre-born or abomination are killed out of hand, they do not have the training that tells them to avoid the male ancestral memories and usually become possessed by a dominant male ancestor. See Alia.

The male preborn have a better chance at remaining sane because males are takers and can fight the male personas, as SC pointed out, but the risk of possession is still there. See Leto II.

Female KH is a contradiction in terms.

I never suggested they didn't. It's obvious that RM can look through both sexual lines, but don't for fear of possession. A KH is a male that can look through both lines, which is doubly amazing because any male can't look don't down just one line. They can't access OM at all. KHs can do one thing RMs can't, and an unbelievable amount of things men can't do.


But they can, they chose not to. Who is it that shows Paul where to find his male OM after he takes the WoL?

Jessica.

It's not a matter of whether one can access the OM, this is made available through the drug, Water of Life, Spice Essence, Spice Liquor, Rossak Poison, whatever...

The trick is remaining sane and whole.

My whole point here is under unique circumstances spelled out above it may be possible to twin an intersexed child with an outward female-appearance and a male brain and create a false female KH, and under extremely rare cases twin a purely-biological female with a male brain that would be a "true female KH".


If the female has a male brain she's not really female, is she? The old "woman trapped in a man's body" phrase comes to mind. I don't want nothing to do with her.

Look at Ghanima, who before anyone blasphemes, was all woman. She had access to both male and female OM and had to block it off through hypnosis to remain sane. You could argue that both were natural "female KHs" but neither kept their complete OM and remained sane.

Again, any RM can access male OM. That's not the real trick.
Image
Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
~Pink Snowman

User avatar
Redstar
Posts: 1202
Joined: 25 Feb 2009 04:13

Postby Redstar » 22 Mar 2009 14:47

Freakzilla wrote:ALL REVEREND MOTHERS HAVE ACCESS TO MASCULINE OM!

They have been trained to block it out and not use it. This is why the pre-born or abomination are killed out of hand, they do not have the training that tells them to avoid the male ancestral memories and usually become possessed by a dominant male ancestor. See Alia.

The male preborn have a better chance at remaining sane because males are takers and can fight the male personas, as SC pointed out, but the risk of possession is still there. See Leto II.

Female KH is a contradiction in terms.

But they can, they chose not to. Who is it that shows Paul where to find his male OM after he takes the WoL?

Jessica.

It's not a matter of whether one can access the OM, this is made available through the drug, Water of Life, Spice Essence, Spice Liquor, Rossak Poison, whatever...

The trick is remaining sane and whole.

If the female has a male brain she's not really female, is she? The old "woman trapped in a man's body" phrase comes to mind. I don't want nothing to do with her.

Look at Ghanima, who before anyone blasphemes, was all woman. She had access to both male and female OM and had to block it off through hypnosis to remain sane. You could argue that both were natural "female KHs" but neither kept their complete OM and remained sane.

Again, any RM can access male OM. That's not the real trick.

I was under the impression that no male has ever survived the WoL, and survival would be one of the defining characteristics of what makes a KH.

Yes, females can access both sexual lines of OM but generally do not because of the strong risk for possession. It seems like there has never been a female that has looked into male OM and not become possessed, because all abominations were killed before this could happen to know otherwise. Not only that, but I seriously doubt a preborn is anything but possessed. They simply haven't had the time to develop a personality that is unique from their OM, and one could argue that Ghanima/Leto II both just have a portmanteau of ego memories formed into a personality, and Leto himself only later decided to let one of those personalities play a more dominant role.

But the defining feature of a KH is their prescience, which I don't think is possible in a female. Remember that Paul was born one generation ahead of time and still became a KH, and try as she might Alia couldn't pull off the same feat. They should have a high percentage of identical DNA, though I think her example is Herbert clearly saying a female KH is impossible no matter the circumstances.

Remember Freak, I'm only speculating. I think we've proved a purely female KH is impossible, but do you agree with my rationalization? Stripping the gender labels, do you think an outwardly female and neurologically male person could become a "superficial" KH?

Now, under a similar scenario, what if the person had a neurological makeup that was somewhere between male and female? Say it was dominantly "female", but had a certain ratio of male neurological traits? If this person had the biology of a female, and say a ratio of 75% female brain and 25% male, would they constitute female and, if so, would that be enough "male" to produce a prescient KH?

User avatar
Freakzilla
Lead Singer and Driver of the Winnebego
Posts: 18340
Joined: 05 Feb 2008 01:27
Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA
Contact:

Postby Freakzilla » 22 Mar 2009 15:04

It is true that no male has survived the Truthsayer Drug. However rendering a poison harmless once inside your body is a neat trick but pales in comparison to integrating the memories of all your past ancestors into a coherent whole.

I somewhat agree with you on males having a greater tendancy for prescience but I think you're mistaken on the the extent of Alia's prescience.

Alia prophecized from her Fane balcony after converting the WoL on a daily basis. It was not until the Dune Tarot was introduced that her prescience became cloudy. One could also argue that Edric, Bijaz and Paul interfered too.

Alia's power may not have been as powerfull as Paul's but she was certainly prescient.

Prescience is a desired trait of the KH but this is only mentioned in the Appendix. I think prescience is a side effect of having complete OM, super-mentat abilities and spice.

I think the complete OM was the goal of the BG breeding, Prescience is a bonus. It would not be like the BG to depend on an Oracle.
Image
Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
~Pink Snowman

User avatar
Redstar
Posts: 1202
Joined: 25 Feb 2009 04:13

Postby Redstar » 22 Mar 2009 15:24

Freakzilla wrote:Alia prophecized from her Fane balcony after converting the WoL on a daily basis. It was not until the Dune Tarot was introduced that her prescience became cloudy. One could also argue that Edric, Bijaz and Paul interfered too.

Alia's power may not have been as powerfull as Paul's but she was certainly prescient.

I haven't had time to re-read through the original Dune series since I'm working my way through other science-fiction and literary classics, so I completely missed that. I'm going enjoy finally getting back to them after several years.

Freakzilla wrote:Prescience is a desired trait of the KH but this is only mentioned in the Appendix. I think prescience is a side effect of having complete OM, super-mentat abilities and spice.

I think the complete OM was the goal of the BG breeding, Prescience is a bonus. It would not be like the BG to depend on an Oracle.

Prescience wasn't an intended attribute of the KH, though I believe post-Paul the definition was revised to include it. Do you think prescience is inherent in a KH, or do you think it was something entirely unexpected in both Paul and Leto II that in a different line might not occur?

Trying to balance all these qualities and definitions is a bit mind-numbing when trying to rationalize a female KH, since now you're reminding me that Alia also had some form of prescience. I find myself thinking (feel free to comment) that a KH is different from an average RM because he would be able to access both sexual lines of OM and not be possessed, thus have as much a coherent-sane mind as possible.

The Tleilaxu KH would be a failure under this because he killed himself, making it apparent he must have succumbed to some insanity (whether possession or otherwise). Perhaps Fenring was a failed KH not only for his genetic impotence, but also for his personality? He's been described in Dune by the Baron as "a killer with the manners of a rabbit ... the most dangerous kind." and by Paul "... crippled by a flaw in the genetic pattern — a eunuch, his talent concentrated into furtiveness and inner seclusion." Maybe this suggests that he had some level of insanity, of being a psychotic with a cracked mind that, as either a result of his genetic flaw or an independent factor, caused him to be a failed KH.

User avatar
Freakzilla
Lead Singer and Driver of the Winnebego
Posts: 18340
Joined: 05 Feb 2008 01:27
Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA
Contact:

Postby Freakzilla » 22 Mar 2009 15:41

I think some prescience was expected, maybe not on the magnitude of Paul or Leto II, though.

Note that in in Jessica's report on Bene Gesserit Motives and Purposes (App. III) she claims they were seeking some of the qualities of a Guild Navigator.

The term may have been redifined in in the latter books but I think it was more in terms of a Bene Gesserit mistake or a loose cannon.

I think too much emphasis is placed on the Tleilaxu KH, much like the origins of the Sandtrout. That wasn't the point of the conversation. THe point was that the BT were trying to find a way to defeat a KH and learned through their own experiments that someone who has built up his entire life to being a certain thing would rather be destroyed than become the opposite.

This is why Scytale emphasizes that their KH was a being of pure essences, evil in this case, would rather die than be good. This does not necessarily indicate that the BT KH had either prescience or OM.
Image
Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
~Pink Snowman

User avatar
Redstar
Posts: 1202
Joined: 25 Feb 2009 04:13

Postby Redstar » 22 Mar 2009 15:58

Interesting points. I've certainly revised my definition of a KH.

I'll just see what Chig's response it to all the "female KH" and general KH stuff I've brought up, since they seem interesting directions to go in.

User avatar
Ampoliros
Posts: 2518
Joined: 14 Mar 2008 11:22
Location: I think we took a wrong turn...

Postby Ampoliros » 23 Mar 2009 21:18

Why? Why did I go back and check the Marie assassination again? why why why!?!?!?!

Send Booze.


Apparently, Paul switched off his shield when Marie was killed. I guess he doesn't feel that Fenring and Margot are a danger...

KJA, DO YOU EVEN READ YOUR OWN SHIT? SERIOUSLY, I LOST BRAIN CELLS
Semper Fidelis Tyrannosaurus

User avatar
SandChigger
KJASF Ground Zero
Posts: 14492
Joined: 08 Feb 2008 22:29
Location: A continuing state of irritation
Contact:

Postby SandChigger » 24 Mar 2009 00:42

Redstar wrote:I'll just see what Chig's response it to all the "female KH" and general KH stuff I've brought up, since they seem interesting directions to go in.

Sorry, I stopped paying attention once Freak showed up.

I was just playing placeholder till then. :P


Just kidding. (Or am I?) I haven't read through the thread but will later. (Gots me a do to go to tonight. More later!)

User avatar
Redstar
Posts: 1202
Joined: 25 Feb 2009 04:13

Postby Redstar » 24 Mar 2009 01:02

Freak clarified a few things, but pretty much avoided the subject we were originally discussing. Still be interested in how you'd respond to my later posts, since I'd easily take up the "defend random speculatory impossibility" stance again for the fun of it. :D

User avatar
Freakzilla
Lead Singer and Driver of the Winnebego
Posts: 18340
Joined: 05 Feb 2008 01:27
Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA
Contact:

Postby Freakzilla » 24 Mar 2009 09:54

I'm no biology expert but what you said made some sense.

It just sounds to me like you're trying to rationalize a female KH.
Image
Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
~Pink Snowman

User avatar
Redstar
Posts: 1202
Joined: 25 Feb 2009 04:13

Postby Redstar » 24 Mar 2009 10:09

I'm not one either, but I've done research on intersexed births and chromosome defects for an unrelated story I was working on, so it was only a matter of applying what I remembered.

Yeah, that is what I'm trying to do. As I've said before, it's just speculation for the sake of speculating. I have a habit of breaking things down to find any likelihood, and this happened to be an interesting subject to work on.

User avatar
Mandy
Cat Herder
Posts: 1702
Joined: 08 Feb 2008 20:18
Contact:

Postby Mandy » 24 Mar 2009 13:18

Ampoliros wrote:Why? Why did I go back and check the Marie assassination again? why why why!?!?!?!

Send Booze.


Apparently, Paul switched off his shield when Marie was killed. I guess he doesn't feel that Fenring and Margot are a danger...

KJA, DO YOU EVEN READ YOUR OWN SHIT? SERIOUSLY, I LOST BRAIN CELLS


He doesn't write it, so why should he bother reading it?
As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Hypatia approaches one.

User avatar
SandChigger
KJASF Ground Zero
Posts: 14492
Joined: 08 Feb 2008 22:29
Location: A continuing state of irritation
Contact:

Postby SandChigger » 24 Mar 2009 13:39

I'm detecting a strong likelihood of all the air molecules in this room suddenly compressing into one corner and my head exploding in the resultant vacuum.

:shock:

Oh, damn. Didn't happen soon enough ... another hideous image of overexcited KJA fanthangs just popped into my mind:

If he "writes" it they wi

BOOM!!!

tenfingersofdoom
Posts: 65
Joined: 03 Jun 2010 22:08

Re: Marie Fenring Vs. Ender Wiggin. From Dumb-Novels.com

Postby tenfingersofdoom » 09 Jun 2010 23:43

enders brother peter jumps in and ties her down, then begins to skin her alive like a squirrel. match over.
Kevin J. Anderson is so stupid he thinks he invented The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen since he wrote the movie tie-in.

A Little Galach
Posts: 172
Joined: 26 Mar 2010 16:37

Re: Marie Fenring Vs. Ender Wiggin. From Dumb-Novels.com

Postby A Little Galach » 10 Jun 2010 09:07

I feel sad for Ender that he was dragged into KJA's suckiverse. He deserves better.