The Jihad (and Alia), round... whatever.

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Re: The Jihad (and Alia), round... whatever.

Postby redbugpest » 25 Jun 2009 10:05

So, to make this excessively clear:
Did Alia have detailed OM? Yes - She was a pre born RM and had access to OM
Did it go back hundreds of years? Yes
Do we have any indication of some time-limit on anyones OM?Not that I could see
Do we have any reason to doubt Alia's went back to the time of Omnius?No, just how many of those personas she had some form of contact with.
Did she know Omnious was a murderous, evil AI which turned on humanity and almost wiped it out?She knew of the Jihad, so she would have known about Omnius
Did she also, at the exact same time, think about AIs that they were "compliant" and something you could "never distrust"?

Yes. In the same way that Leto II knew that the Ixan's were not to be feard - the technology that created the threat of the the Jihad was lost to them. Her musing ofr a mentat like AI that "you could never distrust" does not have to be an Over mind AI such as Omnius. There is no contradiction in her having knowledge of Omnius and the ensuing Jihad and thinking she could have her own trustworthy AI.
Just because she has other memory does not mean that she experiences the experience that the ego / memories of an ancestor reveal to her.
Here is an example from Chapterhouse, where Tam is being questioned by Odrade about her desert experience:
“Other Memory tells me what I need to know” (Tam)
“It’s not the same, Tam. You have to do it yourself”
I think this also supports the difference between other memory and Gohla memory.
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Re: The Jihad (and Alia), round... whatever.

Postby Freakzilla » 25 Jun 2009 10:11

redbugpest wrote:Do we have any reason to doubt Alia's went back to the time of Omnius?No, just how many of those personas she had some form of contact with.


All of them.

FYI, Leto claimed his memories went back to "the limits of cellular awareness."

Did she know Omnious was a murderous, evil AI which turned on humanity and almost wiped it out?She knew of the Jihad, so she would have known about Omnius
Did she also, at the exact same time, think about AIs that they were "compliant" and something you could "never distrust"?

Yes. In the same way that Leto II knew that the Ixan's were not to be feard - the technology that created the threat of the the Jihad was lost to them. Her musing ofr a mentat like AI that "you could never distrust" does not have to be an Over mind AI such as Omnius. There is no contradiction in her having knowledge of Omnius and the ensuing Jihad and thinking she could have her own trustworthy AI.
Just because she has other memory does not mean that she experiences the experience that the ego / memories of an ancestor reveal to her.
Here is an example from Chapterhouse, where Tam is being questioned by Odrade about her desert experience:
“Other Memory tells me what I need to know” (Tam)
“It’s not the same, Tam. You have to do it yourself”
I think this also supports the difference between other memory and Gohla memory.


You claim OM is not a usefull tool in solving real world problems?

It help Odrade find Leto's spice hoard.

The question is not the difference between ghola memories and OM, please stick to the topic of discussion.

Please learn to quote properly if you want serious debate.
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Re: The Jihad (and Alia), round... whatever.

Postby TheDukester » 25 Jun 2009 10:18

Hey, look at that down there!

It looks like ... it might be ... Yes! Yes, it's a quote button!

Simply amazing!

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Re: The Jihad (and Alia), round... whatever.

Postby SadisticCynic » 25 Jun 2009 10:31

Must be a new feature! :o
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Re: The Jihad (and Alia), round... whatever.

Postby Tleszer » 25 Jun 2009 12:41

Holy crap! Verily, this is truly an amazing board since we got this
SadisticCynic wrote:new feature! :o
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Re: The Jihad (and Alia), round... whatever.

Postby SandChigger » 25 Jun 2009 13:20

redbugpest wrote:Here is an example from Chapterhouse, where Tam is being questioned by Odrade about her desert experience:
“Other Memory tells me what I need to know” (Tam)
“It’s not the same, Tam. You have to do it yourself”

For someone who hasn't reread the originals recently and who didn't remember the twins were only nine at the start of CoD and who claims not to have files of the books, you certainly pulled that one out pretty smartly. :lol:
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Re: The Jihad (and Alia), round... whatever.

Postby redbugpest » 25 Jun 2009 13:29

I happen to be reading that one right now... Saw it and said Ah Ha!

I don't see you refuting the validity either...
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Re: The Jihad (and Alia), round... whatever.

Postby Freakzilla » 25 Jun 2009 13:58

Anyone can tell you there is a difference between memory and actual experience. That doesn't mean Tam doesn't know what the desert is like.

Back to the topic...
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Re: The Jihad (and Alia), round... whatever.

Postby Lundse » 25 Jun 2009 17:29

redbugpest wrote:So, to make this excessively clear:
Did Alia have detailed OM? Yes - She was a pre born RM and had access to OM
Did it go back hundreds of years? Yes
Do we have any indication of some time-limit on anyones OM?Not that I could see
Do we have any reason to doubt Alia's went back to the time of Omnius?No, just how many of those personas she had some form of contact with.
Did she know Omnious was a murderous, evil AI which turned on humanity and almost wiped it out?She knew of the Jihad, so she would have known about Omnius


Great, good to get that out of the way. Lets just quickly recap the argument and relevant quote:


1 - Alia has memories from the time of the Jihad, about Omnius et al. (originals).
2 - A. wishes for a machine to give her mentat level advice (Dune Messiah).
3 - A. characterises such a machine as 'compliant' and trustworthy (DM).
4 - A machine with mentat-like capabilities is a powerful artificial intelligence (definition).
5 - Omnius was a powerful artificial intelligence (prequels).
6 - O. tried to enslave and kill mankind (prequels).
7 - O. was an AI which was not compliant or trustworthy (5 and 6).
8 - Alia knows that a powerful AI can be untrustworthy and non-'compliant' the degree of enabling genocide (1 and 7).
9 - A. believes a powerful AI would be trustworthy and 'compliant' (3 and 4).
10 - A. both believes, and does not believe, that a powerful artificial intelligence is 'compliant' and trustworthy (8 and 9).

(So you could have just said, from the beginning; "I agree with 1, 5, 6, 7, 8" but have problem with the line of reasoning which ends in 9. This would have saved us some time and unnecessary arguments.)


Frank Herbert, in Children of Dune wrote:I should've left him at Sietch Tabr, Alia thought. It would've been better to just turn Irulan over to Javid for questioning.
Within her skull, Alia heard a rumbling voice: "Exactly!"
Shut up! Shut up! Shut up! she thought. A dangerous mistake beckoned her in these moments and she could not recognize its outlines. All she could sense was the danger. Idaho had to help her out of this predicament. He was a mentat. Mentats were necessary. The human-computer replaced the mechanical devices destroyed by the Butlerian Jihad. Thou shalt not make a machine in the likeness of a human mind! But Alia longed now for a compliant machine. They could not have suffered from Idaho's limitations. You could never distrust a machine.



Now, you are saying something about how what she is thinking about is different from Omnius:

redbugpest wrote:
Lundse wrote:Did she also, at the exact same time, think about AIs that they were "compliant" and something you could "never distrust"?
Yes. In the same way that Leto II knew that the Ixan's were not to be feard - the technology that created the threat of the the Jihad was lost to them. Her musing ofr a mentat like AI that "you could never distrust" does not have to be an Over mind AI such as Omnius. There is no contradiction in her having knowledge of Omnius and the ensuing Jihad and thinking she could have her own trustworthy AI.
Just because she has other memory does not mean that she experiences the experience that the ego / memories of an ancestor reveal to her.
Here is an example from Chapterhouse, where Tam is being questioned by Odrade about her desert experience:
“Other Memory tells me what I need to know” (Tam)
“It’s not the same, Tam. You have to do it yourself”
I think this also supports the difference between other memory and Gohla memory.


The only relevant thing here is your claim that "a mentat-like AI which is trustworthy" does not have to be "like Omnius".

Except it is not relevant. At all. You are of course right that one could imagine such AIs, which are both trustworthy and quite unlike Omnius. The problem is that she is thinking about all AIs, and at the very least about AIs in general. Let me direct you to the last part of the quote:

Frank Herbert, in Children of Dune wrote:The human-computer replaced the mechanical devices destroyed by the Butlerian Jihad. Thou shalt not make a machine in the likeness of a human mind! But Alia longed now for a compliant machine. They could not have suffered from Idaho's limitations. You could never distrust a machine.


What is Alia thinking about here? What kind of things is it which she is musing about in the later sentences?

"...mechanical devices destroyed by the Butlerian Jihad..."

This is a general description of powerful (and lesser) AIs. It even says specifically that it was the machines from the time of the Jihad. Does this include Omnius. You bet!

Then she quotes a bit in her head and goes on to state a few things to herself, about these machines. Note that she is not musing about some hypothetical machine which humanity might be able to build now, it is machines from the Jihad which has her thinking. And she thinks:

"...compliant machine..." and well as "You could never distrust a machine."

(Also note that she uses "They could not have..." between these two quotes. If the machine she is thinking about is hypothetical and has nothing to do with the machines from the Jihad, of which Omnius is one, she would have thought: "Such a machine could not..." - notice the missing "have".)

It is machines in general, specifically including those from the Jihad (which logically entails Omnius) that she is thinking about. And she is thinking they are compliant and trustworthy.


So your suggestion that she is thinking about different kinds of machines (one kind from the Jihad, including Omnius, and another which is all nice and stuff). This entails that in the above quote, Alia is thinking, in the first sentence, about the Butlerian Jihad and the machines that were destroyed. She quotes. Then she thinks about a possibly compliant machine - without indicating in any way that she is shifting her thinking to the hypothetical. Then she thinks about machines in the past, presumably from the Jihad - this cannot be hypothetical (and she even continues her train of thought, praising machines over mentats - in a passage you claim is not about the same kind of machines at all). Then she returns to praise machines of the hypothetical kind again - and again without in any way indicating that she has shifted to thinking about another kind of machine entirely from the one which tried to slaughter mankind.

My question is this:
How, in the name of all that is holy, do you make that reading out of the following. How is that not a train of thought about one kind of machines (machines in general), which specifically include machines from the Jihad?

Look it over:

Frank Herbert, in Children of Dune wrote:The human-computer replaced the mechanical devices destroyed by the Butlerian Jihad. Thou shalt not make a machine in the likeness of a human mind! But Alia longed now for a compliant machine. They could not have suffered from Idaho's limitations. You could never distrust a machine.

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Re: The Jihad (and Alia), round... whatever.

Postby Schu » 28 Jun 2009 05:01

I don't think we can really judge Alia as being rational or having rational opinions during her possession by the Baron. He was dominating her OM (and her own psyche) to the exclusion of everyone else (and often to the exclusion of Alia too) first of all, and second of all, he was not the most balanced of people (and we know from the early chapters of Dune that the baron also bemoaned the necessity of human mentats. I think these factors *could* have been enough to cloud some supposed previous lessons from OM about the dangers of using machines.

BUT before anyone gets the wrong idea! Of course I still disagree with the Machines ruling men idea, it was men with machines ruling men that is stated rather explicitly in the first chapter of dune by someone who had OM of her own and would have known. I just don't think the line of reasoning mentioned in this thread proves it (not do I think it needs any proof beyond Mohiam's words, though there's PLENTY more to be found).

Sorry to argue redbugpest's point (and better than he does :P ) but yeah...
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Re: The Jihad (and Alia), round... whatever.

Postby loremaster » 28 Jun 2009 05:53

Just FWIW - Could a ghola become possessed by his past lives? how would you notice? :)

My problem with many debates like this is that you're trying to find small quotes and distort meanings to justify the possibility of the omnius storyling being true.

If it isnt immediately clear from reading the books that omnius (conceptually) wasnt Frank's and is far inferior, you aren't worth trying to convince. Even supposing there was a machine intelligence in Frank's duniverse, he would NOT have a teen-sci-fi name like OMNIUS. (you're telling me Frank REALLY meant that the Atreides went back to agamemnon the titan? get bent)

This whole debate reminds me of the joke about two blondes walking in a forest who came across some tracks. "They're deer tracks said one", "Fox tracks" said the other. The debate went on for half an hour, before the train ran them over.

You're so conceptually (holistically? can i use that word?) wrong it's laughable.
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Re: The Jihad (and Alia), round... whatever.

Postby SandChigger » 28 Jun 2009 08:50

loremaster wrote:Just FWIW - Could a ghola become possessed by his past lives? how would you notice? :)

:) Isn't the awakening more an integration into the pre-awakening persona of the memories of the past life (lives)?


get bent

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Re: The Jihad (and Alia), round... whatever.

Postby loremaster » 28 Jun 2009 09:30

SandChigger wrote:
loremaster wrote:Just FWIW - Could a ghola become possessed by his past lives? how would you notice? :)

:) Isn't the awakening more an integration into the pre-awakening persona of the memories of the past life (lives)?



Yeah, i think it has more in common with Leto's collaborative effort at OM than RM OM tbh. Thinking that leto says he became in part an amalgam of his ancestors (paraphrasing : I'm not Harum, then i`m not the original leto either) .

Duncan "learned" to be a mentat following integration of past personas which included this skill, sounds more like a hybridisation than a filing-memories exercise the RM went through.

Then that brings the other little quirk of ole' duncan - he could remember Duncans whose cells COULDNT have been included. Also some of them had siona markers, some didnt. He was a proper little patchwork ghola, with something as yet unexplained in there too. (such as Scytale's *whistle whistle whistle* here duncan duncan! Good Boy!)

I've speculated before on what a human with some cells immune to prescience must look like. The idea of a prescient zombie who ambles round with patches invisible to prescience, with bits apparently "missing" in the vision. Maybe see the hand but not the arm which connects it :D

Obviously not whats meant, but quite comic nontheless.
get bent

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It is indeed, one which gets around the filters at school!
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Re: The Jihad (and Alia), round... whatever.

Postby Freakzilla » 28 Jun 2009 10:41

Schu wrote:I don't think we can really judge Alia as being rational or having rational opinions during her possession by the Baron. He was dominating her OM (and her own psyche) to the exclusion of everyone else (and often to the exclusion of Alia too) first of all, and second of all, he was not the most balanced of people (and we know from the early chapters of Dune that the baron also bemoaned the necessity of human mentats. I think these factors *could* have been enough to cloud some supposed previous lessons from OM about the dangers of using machines.

BUT before anyone gets the wrong idea! Of course I still disagree with the Machines ruling men idea, it was men with machines ruling men that is stated rather explicitly in the first chapter of dune by someone who had OM of her own and would have known. I just don't think the line of reasoning mentioned in this thread proves it (not do I think it needs any proof beyond Mohiam's words, though there's PLENTY more to be found).

Sorry to argue redbugpest's point (and better than he does :P ) but yeah...


The Baron seemed pretty sharp to me. He bemoaned Piters drug habits, not his benifit as a mentat. Sure he was a pervert and ruled with an iron fist, but tactically and strategically he was a genius.
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Re: The Jihad (and Alia), round... whatever.

Postby Schu » 28 Jun 2009 11:36

Freakzilla wrote:
Schu wrote:I don't think we can really judge Alia as being rational or having rational opinions during her possession by the Baron. He was dominating her OM (and her own psyche) to the exclusion of everyone else (and often to the exclusion of Alia too) first of all, and second of all, he was not the most balanced of people (and we know from the early chapters of Dune that the baron also bemoaned the necessity of human mentats. I think these factors *could* have been enough to cloud some supposed previous lessons from OM about the dangers of using machines.

BUT before anyone gets the wrong idea! Of course I still disagree with the Machines ruling men idea, it was men with machines ruling men that is stated rather explicitly in the first chapter of dune by someone who had OM of her own and would have known. I just don't think the line of reasoning mentioned in this thread proves it (not do I think it needs any proof beyond Mohiam's words, though there's PLENTY more to be found).

Sorry to argue redbugpest's point (and better than he does :P ) but yeah...


The Baron seemed pretty sharp to me. He bemoaned Piters drug habits, not his benifit as a mentat. Sure he was a pervert and ruled with an iron fist, but tactically and strategically he was a genius.


Oh, no doubt he was pretty sharp (though Thufir and the Emperor showed he wasn't the sharpest, he was still sharper than your average guy). But the baron was also complaining (I think in a later chapter) about Piter being a genuine threat to his person, and in that chapter, even admits to wishing to kill the baron in front of him.

Also sharpness is not enough to be balanced - Piter, for example, was one of the sharpest there was, but you certainly wouldn't call him balanced. No, I don't think I'd be trusting Alia's judgement with the Baron practically controlling her, that seems like a pretty unstable person. I'd be taking anything that combination said with a fairly sizable grain of salt.

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Re: The Jihad (and Alia), round... whatever.

Postby Lundse » 28 Jun 2009 14:45

Schu wrote:Sorry to argue redbugpest's point (and better than he does :P ) but yeah...


That's OK. Someone over at DN tried this tack before - but it suffers from a flaw.

What I am pointing out is Alia's knowledge and factual beliefs about machines. There is no suggestion that the baron is altering her OM, or

While he is certainly influencing her belief system - such as making her think of machines as more effecient as humans (like he thinks about, and treats, Piter) - there is no reason to believe he is changing around her memory. (And if Frank meant that he did so, it would have been horrible writing - as he lets us look into her head without telling us when she is wrong).

So the facts of the matter would still be in her head - hence, there is no possible way she could believe machines to be trustworthy and compliant.

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Re: The Jihad (and Alia), round... whatever.

Postby Lundse » 28 Jun 2009 14:49

loremaster wrote:My problem with many debates like this is that you're trying to find small quotes and distort meanings to justify the possibility of the omnius storyling being true.

You're so conceptually (holistically? can i use that word?) wrong it's laughable.


I agree in some way. Someone who cannot see how insanely wrong the two hacks are about Dune himself will probably never get it. That is not the point for me, though. I have a proof and I want to see if anyone can tear it down. They can't.
This is my justification for not only believeing what I do, but also throwing it in peoples faces. If I am not willing to defend my views, I have to right to push them on other people.

I have invited Byron, Simon, Arnoldo, KJA himself, TAZ, redbug here and others to tell me how the new books could conceivably fit into the canon with Franks. They fail. All of them. And I am being polite and helpful all the way.
This speaks volumes, in my opinion!

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Re: The Jihad (and Alia), round... whatever.

Postby Schu » 28 Jun 2009 23:03

Lundse wrote:
Schu wrote:Sorry to argue redbugpest's point (and better than he does :P ) but yeah...


That's OK. Someone over at DN tried this tack before - but it suffers from a flaw.

What I am pointing out is Alia's knowledge and factual beliefs about machines. There is no suggestion that the baron is altering her OM, or

While he is certainly influencing her belief system - such as making her think of machines as more effecient as humans (like he thinks about, and treats, Piter) - there is no reason to believe he is changing around her memory. (And if Frank meant that he did so, it would have been horrible writing - as he lets us look into her head without telling us when she is wrong).

So the facts of the matter would still be in her head - hence, there is no possible way she could believe machines to be trustworthy and compliant.


I think it's more than that. It gets to the point where the Alia actually gains weight and we can only assume this is the Baron's influence. This, in a person that has achieved the BG total balance or whatever it was that alia did to make herself ageless, is no mean feat, she had supreme control over her body. He has the ability to give her intense mental pain too. I don't think it's beyond the realm of possibility (which would be required for a proof) that the baron couldn't have made Alia temporarily forget her history OM lessons (and, conveniently, her OM is blocked out by the baron, so other lives aren't there to remind her with simulflow) and lose perspective about machines under the baron's influence. Maybe when she came to, after a bit, she'd probably think "oh wait, that was fucking RETARDED" though.

Don't get me wrong though. I think it's a strong argument. I think it's an especially strong argument about FH's intentions. I just have a very mathematical view of the word proof, meaning that it has to be beyond the realm of possibility to be otherwise. I think this, however, does show beyond reasonable doubt that FH never intended machines vs men, and intended (as he said all along and in the first chapter of dune) for it to be men with machines vs men.

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Re: The Jihad (and Alia), round... whatever.

Postby Lundse » 29 Jun 2009 02:46

Schu wrote:I think it's more than that. It gets to the point where the Alia actually gains weight and we can only assume this is the Baron's influence. This, in a person that has achieved the BG total balance or whatever it was that alia did to make herself ageless, is no mean feat, she had supreme control over her body. He has the ability to give her intense mental pain too. I don't think it's beyond the realm of possibility (which would be required for a proof) that the baron couldn't have made Alia temporarily forget her history OM lessons (and, conveniently, her OM is blocked out by the baron, so other lives aren't there to remind her with simulflow) and lose perspective about machines under the baron's influence. Maybe when she came to, after a bit, she'd probably think "oh wait, that was fucking RETARDED" though.

Don't get me wrong though. I think it's a strong argument. I think it's an especially strong argument about FH's intentions. I just have a very mathematical view of the word proof, meaning that it has to be beyond the realm of possibility to be otherwise. I think this, however, does show beyond reasonable doubt that FH never intended machines vs men, and intended (as he said all along and in the first chapter of dune) for it to be men with machines vs men.


I see your point regarding 'proof'. And of course it is not logically sound, as some of the premises are based on a reading of Herbert. One could, as you mention, decide that Alia might have been remembering wrong, because of some possesion-based impairment of her OM.

So the premises of the argument are naturally based on your reading. And they work by a principle that each body of work is seperate - ie. to understand Frank's books, we look only at his books and base our facts only on that. So, reading Children of Dune, there is no reason to believe Alia (or the baron within her, for that matter) is remembering wrong.
Naturally, we can imagine all sorts of other scenarios, if we begin to let other texts into the mix. I could write five lines of a Winnie the Pooh story, which would make the entire plot of Dune a weird dream Winnie had. This does not make the two universes a consistent canon. If it did, anything would go.

My argument is based on grabbing premises from each work. From Children of Dune, we get a premise that Alia has accurate OM back into prehistory - if one wants to claim that the details we are given are somehow suspect, one might as well claim every single insight into a character, in all the Dune chronicles, is wrong. (Paul never felt any terrible purpose, he just thought he did).

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Re: The Jihad (and Alia), round... whatever.

Postby Schu » 29 Jun 2009 02:55

Yep, we're pretty much in agreement then :)

People that "see ambiguity" in Frank's idea of the BJ have completely failed to build any kind of convincing case for self-serving terminators, and yet Frank's quotes on the matter are clear. One barely even needs Occam's razor for this: KJA and BH either didn't understand or didn't research, try to show ambiguity to validate their ideas, and their fans copy them.

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Re: The Jihad (and Alia), round... whatever.

Postby Lundse » 29 Jun 2009 03:11

Schu wrote:Yep, we're pretty much in agreement then :)

People that "see ambiguity" in Frank's idea of the BJ have completely failed to build any kind of convincing case for self-serving terminators, and yet Frank's quotes on the matter are clear. One barely even needs Occam's razor for this: KJA and BH either didn't understand or didn't research, try to show ambiguity to validate their ideas, and their fans copy them.


Exactly. This is precisely the thing TAZ was unable to understand back at wikipedia:

First your decide that author A is saying, then you decide what author B is saying - THEN you see whether they are compatible. You do not read author B and then use his claims about author A to make everything fit.
And reading CoD (or anything else by Frank for that matter) you do not get the idea that Skynet popped up. Nor that OM, in the general or Alias case, was sometimes out of commision regarding huge historical events.

Redbugpest even agreed that Alia would know about Omnius - so he is left defending the claim that Alia is somehow talking about two different sets of AIs in the same paragraph. :-)
Strangely, there is no word from him on that...

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Re: The Jihad (and Alia), round... whatever.

Postby Schu » 29 Jun 2009 07:40

yeah, I really doubt that when FH was writing the line "you could never distrust a machine" he actually meant:

"Alia, influenced by the Baron who apparently knew absolutely nothing of some rather important and influential history himself, influenced to the extent that the baron implanted his own mistaken ideas into Alia's mind, simultaneously blocking her own memory which doubtless included the Butlerian Jihad, her common sense, her other memory and several of her most important faculties, thought "you could never distrust a machine" - oh, also, what I wrote in the first chapter of Dune was wrong, thought you should know that before you read on."

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Re: The Jihad (and Alia), round... whatever.

Postby Lundse » 29 Jun 2009 07:45

Schu wrote:yeah, I really doubt that when FH was writing the line "you could never distrust a machine" he actually meant:

"Alia, influenced by the Baron who apparently knew absolutely nothing of some rather important and influential history himself, influenced to the extent that the baron implanted his own mistaken ideas into Alia's mind, simultaneously blocking her own memory which doubtless included the Butlerian Jihad, her common sense, her other memory and several of her most important faculties, thought "you could never distrust a machine" - oh, also, what I wrote in the first chapter of Dune was wrong, thought you should know that before you read on."


It's in the notes :-)

("See them? No, we've already given you these wonderful novels based on them. Trust us, they are far better than Frank's moldy old sketch-books.")

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Re: The Jihad (and Alia), round... whatever.

Postby SandChigger » 29 Jun 2009 10:47

Schu wrote:KJA and BH either didn't understand or didn't research...

I prefer the more evil third alternative: they understood and knew exactly what they were doing when they contradicted FH. They thought they were being clever and creative. :evil:
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Re: The Jihad (and Alia), round... whatever.

Postby SandRider » 29 Jun 2009 10:56

hey, lundse, for fun you should get on one of those Mormon forums
and ask them to reconcile the archeological proof of the origins of
the meso-americans versus what their holy book says ....

you CAN in fact hold two diametrically opposed ideas in your head,
but as Orwell pointed out, it just makes you a raving asshole ....

all this debate & discussion is very fine & good, I always enjoy
watching the youth dig a little deeper and think for themselves,
but this topic is just pointless bullshit.

TheKeith (with compliance & approval from #1 Son) simply rewrote
the basis of the Butlerian Jihad so as to include kewl-ass killer robots.

That's all there is to it. Brian Conway is much too simple-minded
and fanatical in his defense of TheKeith to even consider the simple
answer - the hack rewrote the premise of the entire universe Frank
created.

Therefore, reconciliation between the two visions of the Jihad is
impossible, even if the characters have the same names. We've
said it before - TheKeith's Dune is just bad fan fiction, not worthy
of serious contemplation or discussion.

& Thanks for pointing out the "you could never distrust a machine" line -
combined W/ Mohiam's "enslaved by other men with machines" quote,
the argument of the nature of the Butlerian Jihad is impossible to debate.

(and to clear up some bullshit from other threads concerning Brian Conway,
I didn't actually "invite" him here - I posted a suggestion on Amazon that
he stumble on in so as the Duke & Chigger could express themselves more
freely - and while I do appreciate his attempt (in this thread, anyway) to
actually defend TheKeith's Dune, we all know that's a lost cause - but
also, I like the idea of proving that anyone can join & post here without
censor, deletion, or banning (Hi, Byron ! You disgusting whore.) Now,
you may get called some horrible, terrible names, and shown to be an
idiot, but those with the thin-skin should stick to My Little Pony forums ....)
................ I exist only to amuse myself ................
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I personally feel that this message board, Jacurutu, is full of hateful folks who don't know
how to fully interact with people.
~ "Spice Grandson" (Bryon Merrit) 08 June 2008