Englobement - ATTN: REDBUGPEST

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Englobement - ATTN: REDBUGPEST

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 24 Jun 2009 13:04

Now that we have someone who thinks the new books are of a high quality, and is willing to debate it - I wish to resurrect some arguments that Byron and the others at DN didn't even have the balls/brains/passion to attempt to really argue against me. Let the games begin.

Okay, so I’m going to start out with a simple one. It contains only what should be just common knowledge about the original and new books, so I trust I won’t need quotes, but if they are required for whatever bizarre reason I will find them and post them. I’m going to list this as simply as possible to make it clear where the problem lies.

1. In the originals we are confronted by the HM, who have returned from the very edges of the Scattering, fleeing an enemy they discovered out in the distant edge.
2. By the time of the God Emperor, the human Empire has expanded to inhabit multiple galaxies.
3. The Scattering extends into a vastly larger space than the empire did during the God Emperor’s time.
4. In “Dune 7” we find out that this enemy the HM flee is the machines, headed by Omnius.
5. It is explained that Omnius got to the edge of the scattering via a signal that was transmitted just prior to his destruction in the Legends series, and has since been rebuilding his machine empire for several thousand years.
6. Wait a moment. Even if we forget that Omnius was reincarnated for some thousands of years by the time of Hunters, this leaves only 15 thousand years since this signal was broadcast… and signals that travel through space go how fast? That’s right, the speed of light. And how far does light go in a year? A lightyear. So the absolute farthest Omnius could have travelled is 15,000 LY – starting from a planet that is most certainly not just within the human empire, but within the oldest part of the empire, meaning the Milky way galaxy.

This is a pretty huge mistake by KJA. 15kLY is not very far, our galaxy is around 100kLY across. And Galaxies are MILLIONS of LY apart. Even if the signal started at the edge of our galaxy (which it didn’t), the furthest away from our galaxy it could have travelled is 15kLY… but the empire was already in OTHER galaxies by the time of the God Emperor… and the Scattering took humanity so much further beyond that point that the empire lost track of where everyone went… and the HM came back from the Scattering… which is a hell of a lot further from the Old Empire than this signal could have travelled…

I think you see the problem. That signal couldn’t have gotten Omius very far WITHIN the empire, let alone outside it, really let alone outside the scattering.

And if you think this is a big mistake in their writing, wait for my next thread – this mistake is actually just laying the groundwork for a muuuuuch larger mistake.
Last edited by A Thing of Eternity on 25 Jun 2009 16:18, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Englobement

Postby Hunchback Jack » 25 Jun 2009 14:12

Agreed, and that's the least of it.

Even if we somehow accept that all of the Scattering was within 15K light years from the Jihad-era empire (i.e. the mention of multiple galaxies was just hyperbole), the idea that Omnius could build an empire that *completely surrounded* the Scattering is absurd. Yet that is what it would take for Omnius to be a threat to all of humanity. The idea that Omnius could kill all of humanity with STL ships by attacking from *one direction* is just nonsense. People would just keep fleeing away from him.

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Re: Englobement

Postby Freakzilla » 25 Jun 2009 14:25

One other thing...

Even IF Omnius managed to englobe all of humanity, would he say, "D'oh!" when people began folding space in their no-ships to places beyond his englobement fleet?

Obstacles in real space don't really matter when you can fold space itself, now does it?

:wink:
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Re: Englobement

Postby Nekhrun » 25 Jun 2009 14:47

Freakzilla wrote:One other thing...

Even IF Omnius managed to englobe all of humanity, would he say, "D'oh!" when people began folding space in their no-ships to places beyond his englobement fleet?

Obstacles in real space don't really matter when you can fold space itself, now does it?

:wink:

You wouldn't think so, but then why would you need a navigator? I think of folding space more like smushing space technology.
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Re: Englobement

Postby Freakzilla » 25 Jun 2009 14:52

Nekhrun wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:One other thing...

Even IF Omnius managed to englobe all of humanity, would he say, "D'oh!" when people began folding space in their no-ships to places beyond his englobement fleet?

Obstacles in real space don't really matter when you can fold space itself, now does it?

:wink:

You wouldn't think so, but then why would you need a navigator? I think of folding space more like smushing space technology.


You don't, not with an Ixian Navigation Machine.

BTW... isn't their englobement theory contradicted by having Heighliners built INSIDE IX? If it can fold space through a planet's crust, it can fold space past an englobement fleet.
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Re: Englobement

Postby SandChigger » 25 Jun 2009 14:57

Oh NO! Not past a TACHYON englobement field you don't!

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Re: Englobement

Postby Nekhrun » 25 Jun 2009 15:14

Freakzilla wrote:
Nekhrun wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:One other thing...

Even IF Omnius managed to englobe all of humanity, would he say, "D'oh!" when people began folding space in their no-ships to places beyond his englobement fleet?

Obstacles in real space don't really matter when you can fold space itself, now does it?

:wink:

You wouldn't think so, but then why would you need a navigator? I think of folding space more like smushing space technology.


You don't, not with an Ixian Navigation Machine.

BTW... isn't their englobement theory contradicted by having Heighliners built INSIDE IX? If it can fold space through a planet's crust, it can fold space past an englobement fleet.

So basically, kja and the other guy's writing is completely consistent with their theories of space travel. Whatever you want to do you can do it.
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Re: Englobement

Postby TheDukester » 25 Jun 2009 15:19

Nekhrun wrote:So basically, kja and the other guy's writing is completely consistent with their theories of space travel. Whatever you want to do you can do it.

Taken a step further: this is how TheKJA writes everything. Whatever needs to happen, happens, in service of his great god Plot. It doesn't matter if it makes no sense, isn't consistent, or contradicts something from an earlier chapter. It's all just a series of scenes, anyway, so why let details get in the way?
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Re: Englobement

Postby SandChigger » 25 Jun 2009 15:21

And yet this new Terra Incognita series is being touted as his foray into fantasy.
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Re: Englobement

Postby Nekhrun » 25 Jun 2009 15:44

SandChigger wrote:And yet this new Terra Incognita series is being touted as his foray into fantasy.

This guy's whole fucking life is a fantasy world.
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Re: Englobement

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 25 Jun 2009 16:05

Still nothing.........................................
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Re: Englobement - ATTN: REDBUGPEST

Postby SandChigger » 29 Jun 2009 20:04

Waiting... :) Image
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Re: Englobement - ATTN: REDBUGPEST

Postby Rakis » 29 Jun 2009 23:34

He's dead, Jim...
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Re: Englobement - ATTN: REDBUGPEST

Postby TheDukester » 31 Jul 2009 21:51

Reminder, RedBugDickhead: this is where you pussied out last time.

Specific questions have been raised; we all breathlessly await you repeating whatever KJA's answers are.
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Re: Englobement - ATTN: REDBUGPEST

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 04 Aug 2009 13:14

You have no answer. I am right, KJA biffed this hardcore. Any half-assed amature could see this blaring error in writing.
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Re: Englobement - ATTN: REDBUGPEST

Postby SandChigger » 04 Aug 2009 14:16

Don't give up all hope yet.

He's been really active over on Amazon today. Maybe he'll get back round here to the question theads?! Soon now. Anytime. ;)

(Sorry that you're disappointed, but your optimism is a good thing, really. Hold onto it. :) )
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Re: Englobement - ATTN: REDBUGPEST

Postby redbugpest » 04 Aug 2009 21:02

A Thing of Eternity wrote:This is a pretty huge mistake by KJA. 15kLY is not very far, our galaxy is around 100kLY across. And Galaxies are MILLIONS of LY apart. Even if the signal started at the edge of our galaxy (which it didn’t), the furthest away from our galaxy it could have travelled is 15kLY… but the empire was already in OTHER galaxies by the time of the God Emperor… and the Scattering took humanity so much further beyond that point that the empire lost track of where everyone went… and the HM came back from the Scattering… which is a hell of a lot further from the Old Empire than this signal could have travelled…

I think you see the problem. That signal couldn’t have gotten Omius very far WITHIN the empire, let alone outside it, really let alone outside the scattering.

And if you think this is a big mistake in their writing, wait for my next thread – this mistake is actually just laying the groundwork for a muuuuuch larger mistake.


Well, lets start with this. The mistake if taking one small paragraph from "The Battle of Corrin" and applying the narrowest possible interpretation as if it is gospel. As I recall, earlier in the series (in Machines i think) one of the other copies of the synchronized Omnius Everminds had the bright idea to send out a few thousand copies of itself in a machine version of the scattering. I think that it is just as plausible that the data packet beamed by the Corrin Omnius could have been received either by one of those Omnius copies.

More later, when I have more time (like I said on an earlier post, still about a week out on getting through all of my priority projects, though I am getting *some* more time now...
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Re: Englobement - ATTN: REDBUGPEST

Postby Freakzilla » 04 Aug 2009 21:08

redbugpest wrote:
A Thing of Eternity wrote:This is a pretty huge mistake by KJA. 15kLY is not very far, our galaxy is around 100kLY across. And Galaxies are MILLIONS of LY apart. Even if the signal started at the edge of our galaxy (which it didn’t), the furthest away from our galaxy it could have travelled is 15kLY… but the empire was already in OTHER galaxies by the time of the God Emperor… and the Scattering took humanity so much further beyond that point that the empire lost track of where everyone went… and the HM came back from the Scattering… which is a hell of a lot further from the Old Empire than this signal could have travelled…

I think you see the problem. That signal couldn’t have gotten Omius very far WITHIN the empire, let alone outside it, really let alone outside the scattering.

And if you think this is a big mistake in their writing, wait for my next thread – this mistake is actually just laying the groundwork for a muuuuuch larger mistake.


Well, lets start with this. The mistake if taking one small paragraph from "The Battle of Corrin" and applying the narrowest possible interpretation as if it is gospel. As I recall, earlier in the series (in Machines i think) one of the other copies of the synchronized Omnius Everminds had the bright idea to send out a few thousand copies of itself in a machine version of the scattering. I think that it is just as plausible that the data packet beamed by the Corrin Omnius could have been received either by one of those Omnius copies.

More later, when I have more time (like I said on an earlier post, still about a week out on getting through all of my priority projects, though I am getting *some* more time now...


So... you're saying that probes are faster then electromagnetic waves? :crazy:
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Re: Englobement - ATTN: REDBUGPEST

Postby redbugpest » 04 Aug 2009 21:15

Freakzilla wrote:
redbugpest wrote:
A Thing of Eternity wrote:This is a pretty huge mistake by KJA. 15kLY is not very far, our galaxy is around 100kLY across. And Galaxies are MILLIONS of LY apart. Even if the signal started at the edge of our galaxy (which it didn’t), the furthest away from our galaxy it could have travelled is 15kLY… but the empire was already in OTHER galaxies by the time of the God Emperor… and the Scattering took humanity so much further beyond that point that the empire lost track of where everyone went… and the HM came back from the Scattering… which is a hell of a lot further from the Old Empire than this signal could have travelled…

I think you see the problem. That signal couldn’t have gotten Omius very far WITHIN the empire, let alone outside it, really let alone outside the scattering.

And if you think this is a big mistake in their writing, wait for my next thread – this mistake is actually just laying the groundwork for a muuuuuch larger mistake.


Well, lets start with this. The mistake if taking one small paragraph from "The Battle of Corrin" and applying the narrowest possible interpretation as if it is gospel. As I recall, earlier in the series (in Machines i think) one of the other copies of the synchronized Omnius Everminds had the bright idea to send out a few thousand copies of itself in a machine version of the scattering. I think that it is just as plausible that the data packet beamed by the Corrin Omnius could have been received either by one of those Omnius copies.

More later, when I have more time (like I said on an earlier post, still about a week out on getting through all of my priority projects, though I am getting *some* more time now...


So... you're saying that probes are faster then electromagnetic waves? :crazy:


No - sent out prior to the data packet on update ships - I'll have to find the reference in Machine to determine how long before - and am still looking into the faster than light / light speed issue.

Off for the night :)
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Re: Englobement - ATTN: REDBUGPEST

Postby SandChigger » 04 Aug 2009 21:26

Off to ask Kevin what to do, you mean. :twisted:

redbugpest wrote:
A Thing of Eternity wrote:This is a pretty huge mistake by KJA. 15kLY is not very far, our galaxy is around 100kLY across. And Galaxies are MILLIONS of LY apart. Even if the signal started at the edge of our galaxy (which it didn’t), the furthest away from our galaxy it could have travelled is 15kLY… but the empire was already in OTHER galaxies by the time of the God Emperor… and the Scattering took humanity so much further beyond that point that the empire lost track of where everyone went… and the HM came back from the Scattering… which is a hell of a lot further from the Old Empire than this signal could have travelled…

I think you see the problem. That signal couldn’t have gotten Omius very far WITHIN the empire, let alone outside it, really let alone outside the scattering.

And if you think this is a big mistake in their writing, wait for my next thread – this mistake is actually just laying the groundwork for a muuuuuch larger mistake.


Well, lets start with this. The mistake if [=is] taking one small paragraph from "The Battle of Corrin" and applying the narrowest possible interpretation as if it is gospel.

What does that underlined section even mean? Are you saying the words on the page do not mean what they say? That they are open to any interpretation that you choose, to make the problem go away?

As I recall, earlier in the series (in Machines i think) one of the other copies of the synchronized Omnius Everminds had the bright idea to send out a few thousand copies of itself in a machine version of the scattering. I think that it is just as plausible that the data packet beamed by the Corrin Omnius could have been received either by one of those Omnius copies.

What YOU personally find plausible is not the issue. The issue is how any reasonable person with any knowledge of science can be expected to find it plausible.

Is this how you will answer questions, by obfuscating and not addressing the real issues whatsoever?

No - sent out prior to the data packet on update ships - I'll have to find the reference in Machine to determine how long before - and am still looking into the faster than light / light speed issue.

OK, there's my answer: you're going to bullshit. This makes no sense whatsoever. The synchronizing update ships had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS. And the Corrin Omnius transmission COULD NOT TRAVEL FASTER THAN LIGHT.

Corrin was well within the confines of the Old Empire. (If faithful to FH's books, Sigma Draconis is just 18.8 LY from Earth.) In 15,000 years an electromagnetic signal can only travel 15,000 LY. That puts the location of the receiving probe and the new Synchronized Empire well within the confines of the Old Empire. How is it possible that humans never discovered them?

That's the issue. Answer that or shut the fuck up.
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Re: Englobement - ATTN: REDBUGPEST

Postby Hunchback Jack » 04 Aug 2009 22:08

redbugpest wrote:I'll have to find the reference in Machine to determine how long before - and am still looking into the faster than light / light speed issue.


I think you'll find it pretty early on in TBJ, from memory. I read the first two-thirds of that book (and none of the rest), and remembered that plot point. I realized at the time that I had enough info to go on to Dune 7 if/when it was published.

(Yes, sadly, it was *that* predictable).

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Re: Englobement - ATTN: REDBUGPEST

Postby redbugpest » 05 Aug 2009 08:28

Hunchback Jack wrote:
redbugpest wrote:I'll have to find the reference in Machine to determine how long before - and am still looking into the faster than light / light speed issue.


I think you'll find it pretty early on in TBJ, from memory. I read the first two-thirds of that book (and none of the rest), and remembered that plot point. I realized at the time that I had enough info to go on to Dune 7 if/when it was published.

(Yes, sadly, it was *that* predictable).

HBJ


Couldn't find it in Battle, I'll have to get my copy of Machine back from the person who borrowed it to check that. At any rate, the signal could have been received well within the confines of the empire early on, and the restored Omnius then would have fled somewhere to rebuild it's empire.

It's really just a literary device to preserve the bad guy in such a way that everyone thinks that they are destroyed, so the author can bring them back at a later point. For that matter, I am not comfortable with your interpretations that the HM returned from "the farthest edge". I couldn't find that reference as well, just that they returned from the scattering.

Please feel free to enlighten me...
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Re: Englobement - ATTN: REDBUGPEST

Postby Freakzilla » 05 Aug 2009 08:33

redbugpest wrote:
Hunchback Jack wrote:
redbugpest wrote:I'll have to find the reference in Machine to determine how long before - and am still looking into the faster than light / light speed issue.


I think you'll find it pretty early on in TBJ, from memory. I read the first two-thirds of that book (and none of the rest), and remembered that plot point. I realized at the time that I had enough info to go on to Dune 7 if/when it was published.

(Yes, sadly, it was *that* predictable).

HBJ


Couldn't find it in Battle, I'll have to get my copy of Machine back from the person who borrowed it to check that. At any rate, the signal could have been received well within the confines of the empire early on, and the restored Omnius then would have fled somewhere to rebuild it's empire.

It's really just a literary device to preserve the bad guy in such a way that everyone thinks that they are destroyed, so the author can bring them back at a later point. For that matter, I am not comfortable with your interpretations that the HM returned from "the farthest edge". I couldn't find that reference as well, just that they returned from the scattering.

Please feel free to enlighten me...


You can't provide a quote to back up your claim but want us to provide a quote to prove a non-issue?

:lol:

You're right, it is just a literary device, one with no backing in science. This is a SCIENCE-fiction book, right?
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Re: Englobement - ATTN: REDBUGPEST

Postby redbugpest » 05 Aug 2009 08:50

Freakzilla wrote:
redbugpest wrote:
Hunchback Jack wrote:
redbugpest wrote:I'll have to find the reference in Machine to determine how long before - and am still looking into the faster than light / light speed issue.


I think you'll find it pretty early on in TBJ, from memory. I read the first two-thirds of that book (and none of the rest), and remembered that plot point. I realized at the time that I had enough info to go on to Dune 7 if/when it was published.

(Yes, sadly, it was *that* predictable).

HBJ


Couldn't find it in Battle, I'll have to get my copy of Machine back from the person who borrowed it to check that. At any rate, the signal could have been received well within the confines of the empire early on, and the restored Omnius then would have fled somewhere to rebuild it's empire.

It's really just a literary device to preserve the bad guy in such a way that everyone thinks that they are destroyed, so the author can bring them back at a later point. For that matter, I am not comfortable with your interpretations that the HM returned from "the farthest edge". I couldn't find that reference as well, just that they returned from the scattering.

Please feel free to enlighten me...


You can't provide a quote to back up your claim but want us to provide a quote to prove a non-issue?

:lol:

You're right, it is just a literary device, one with no backing in science. This is a SCIENCE-fiction book, right?


Fiction = "A literary work whose content is produced by the imagination and is not necessarily based on fact."

This thread focused on how the writing was crap because it is not scientifically accurate. Its science-FICTION.

I will get you that quote as soon as I can. You have to understand, I have not taken the time to create digitized research copies of any of these new books, as some of you have with Dune. I have to do it the old fashioned way.
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Re: Englobement - ATTN: REDBUGPEST

Postby Nekhrun » 05 Aug 2009 09:01

redbugpest wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:
redbugpest wrote:
Hunchback Jack wrote:
redbugpest wrote:I'll have to find the reference in Machine to determine how long before - and am still looking into the faster than light / light speed issue.


I think you'll find it pretty early on in TBJ, from memory. I read the first two-thirds of that book (and none of the rest), and remembered that plot point. I realized at the time that I had enough info to go on to Dune 7 if/when it was published.

(Yes, sadly, it was *that* predictable).

HBJ


Couldn't find it in Battle, I'll have to get my copy of Machine back from the person who borrowed it to check that. At any rate, the signal could have been received well within the confines of the empire early on, and the restored Omnius then would have fled somewhere to rebuild it's empire.

It's really just a literary device to preserve the bad guy in such a way that everyone thinks that they are destroyed, so the author can bring them back at a later point. For that matter, I am not comfortable with your interpretations that the HM returned from "the farthest edge". I couldn't find that reference as well, just that they returned from the scattering.

Please feel free to enlighten me...


You can't provide a quote to back up your claim but want us to provide a quote to prove a non-issue?

:lol:

You're right, it is just a literary device, one with no backing in science. This is a SCIENCE-fiction book, right?


Fiction = "A literary work whose content is produced by the imagination and is not necessarily based on fact."

This thread focused on how the writing was crap because it is not scientifically accurate. Its science-FICTION.

I will get you that quote as soon as I can. You have to understand, I have not taken the time to create digitized research copies of any of these new books, as some of you have with Dune. I have to do it the old fashioned way.

So are you saying that because these are works of fiction that there are no boundaries which kja can't cross within an already established universe? kja is the one who claims to have knowledge in the field. He can't even remain true to his own field of study.
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