Writing Critique - ATTN: REDBUGPEST

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SadisticCynic
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Re: Writing Critique

Postby SadisticCynic » 25 Jun 2009 15:46

Except, you would dominate practically everyone at a Dune trivia...
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Re: Writing Critique

Postby Freakzilla » 25 Jun 2009 15:47

SadisticCynic wrote:Except, you would dominate practically everyone at a Dune trivia...


Hey, they're the ones claiming to be the biggest Dune fans. :wink:

And according to Byron, I can only go as high as 13th, after the HLP members.
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Re: Writing Critique

Postby TheDukester » 25 Jun 2009 15:50

Freakzilla wrote:... according to Byron ...

A guy who has proven, in his own words, to know as much about Dune as Kenyans know about golf.
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Re: Writing Critique

Postby Freakzilla » 25 Jun 2009 15:56

TheDukester wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:... according to Byron ...

A guy who has proven, in his own words, to know as much about Dune as Kenyans know about golf.


Trust me, he didn't hurt my feelings or anything. :lol:
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Re: Writing Critique

Postby GamePlayer » 25 Jun 2009 16:47

SandChigger wrote:
Kevin J Anderson’s Education

University of Wisconsin-Madison
BS , Physics, Astronomy, Russian History

From: http://www.linkedin.com/pub/kevin-j-anderson/7/44b/94a


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Re: Writing Critique - ATTN: REDBUGPEST

Postby Hunchback Jack » 25 Jun 2009 19:08

If he really does have that degree, then this is even worse, because it means he is knowingly disregarding simple science, and is essentially insulting his readers for fun, assuming they’re too stupid to catch this kind of sloppy writing.


Well, he may just think we don't care. Frankly, I *don't* care a lot about that stuff when watching any generic space opera movie.

I care about space travel in Dune because:
a) This is an established universe in which the mechanisms of space travel have already been set. I'd be prepared to accept additions if they were explained or justified, but they don't bother to do that.
b) Dune is not mindless space opera, it's hard SF, and (until now) has actually cared about the details.
c) Even if you accept KJA's additions, he is not even consistent within his own books about what space travel entails

The problem is that KJA sees space travel - and everything else in the original novels - as just a plot device, to be shaped, warped and mutilated to serve whatever particular faux-dramatic moment of tension he requires at the time. That's what generic space opera science fiction does all the time, and he sees Dune as no different from that.

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Re: Writing Critique

Postby Freakzilla » 25 Jun 2009 19:14

GamePlayer wrote:
SandChigger wrote:
Kevin J Anderson’s Education

University of Wisconsin-Madison
BS , Physics, Astronomy, Russian History

From: http://www.linkedin.com/pub/kevin-j-anderson/7/44b/94a


"That's his resume, darlin'. Evidently, Mr. Anderson is an educated man. Now I really hate him." :lol:


I love that scene. Kilmer gave an excellent performance in that movie.
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Re: Writing Critique

Postby GamePlayer » 25 Jun 2009 19:58

Hunchback Jack wrote:
If he really does have that degree, then this is even worse, because it means he is knowingly disregarding simple science, and is essentially insulting his readers for fun, assuming they’re too stupid to catch this kind of sloppy writing.


Well, he may just think we don't care. Frankly, I *don't* care a lot about that stuff when watching any generic space opera movie.

I care about space travel in Dune because:
a) This is an established universe in which the mechanisms of space travel have already been set. I'd be prepared to accept additions if they were explained or justified, but they don't bother to do that.
b) Dune is not mindless space opera, it's hard SF, and (until now) has actually cared about the details.
c) Even if you accept KJA's additions, he is not even consistent within his own books about what space travel entails

The problem is that KJA sees space travel - and everything else in the original novels - as just a plot device, to be shaped, warped and mutilated to serve whatever particular faux-dramatic moment of tension he requires at the time. That's what generic space opera science fiction does all the time, and he sees Dune as no different from that.

HBJ


Brilliantly said. The Dune tech from Frank's books is icing on the cake. Frank Herbert crafted a great story with interesting drama and vivid characterizations. But where other authors would stop at just that, Frank Herbert went further and in addition to his great tale he also created a living, breathing fictional construct. Part of that was creating a universe with all kinds of cleverly-created technologies almost as detailed as the characters and history of Dune itself. That's why people don't get the problems we have with the prequels as fans of the originals. Fail to follow the standard that was set by Frank and there the construct is diminished. Treat everything Frank put effort into creating as plot device, then it becomes an exercise in non-creation.

Freakzilla wrote:
GamePlayer wrote:"That's his resume, darlin'. Evidently, Mr. Anderson is an educated man. Now I really hate him." :lol:


I love that scene. Kilmer gave an excellent performance in that movie.


Hehehe :) Yeah, he was brilliant.
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Re: Writing Critique - ATTN: REDBUGPEST

Postby Freakzilla » 25 Jun 2009 20:09

One of the aspects of the Duniverse I love is the limited technology and the backstory of how that came to be and how he focused on the people, not the technology. Also, how that backstory still affects the lives of the characters.

Anybody can come up with an imaginary technical plot device (Keith) but only a master can do it without.
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Re: Writing Critique - ATTN: REDBUGPEST

Postby Hunchback Jack » 25 Jun 2009 20:16

Freak, I was about to say the same thing. FH's *restraint* is masterful. Tech is limited. The powers that melange bestows are limited (e.g. Navigators don't fold space, the Holtzman engines do that). Everything comes at a cost.

With KJA, tech and talents are bested by faster and more powerful tech and talents. A KH is not enough, you need an uber-KH.

HBJ

(Edited to correct the spelling of Holtzman)
Last edited by Hunchback Jack on 25 Jun 2009 20:35, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Writing Critique - ATTN: REDBUGPEST

Postby SandChigger » 25 Jun 2009 20:23

And who to defend a super-hack but an uber-suckup.

Where'd he get to? Off slurping down his next answers and orders from the trough of His Master? :P
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Re: Writing Critique - ATTN: REDBUGPEST

Postby GamePlayer » 25 Jun 2009 20:32

Oh, that was so June 23rd. Get with the 25ths man! :P :P :wink:
Besides, connie already laid the sympathy card, which is the internet equivalent of tapping out :)
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Re: Writing Critique - ATTN: REDBUGPEST

Postby Tleszer » 25 Jun 2009 20:40

SandChigger: Wow! That's a lot of seamen, redbugpest.
redbugpest: Yeah, I bought all that I could at The KJASF, and then I got the rest from this guy Keith in an alley.
GamePlayer: That's cool.
redbugpest: Yeah, and the sweet thing is, the stupid asshole didn't even charge me money for it. He just made me close my eyes and suck on a hose.

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Re: Writing Critique - ATTN: REDBUGPEST

Postby SandChigger » 25 Jun 2009 20:44

Um ... a little too perfect. Eeeew.

:puke:
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Re: Writing Critique - ATTN: REDBUGPEST

Postby TheDukester » 25 Jun 2009 21:07

Freakzilla wrote:Anybody can come up with an imaginary technical plot device ...

Or a Super Death Star (a cross that the Star Wars crowd has had to bear, courtesy of TheKeith).

I agree with the above sentiments: FH creating a wonderful SF setting with, overall, fairly primitive technology was just masterful. Power, in its different forms, comes from people with high levels of training, not from Super-Ultra-Death-Ray-Lasers wielded by cross-dressing SkyNet rejects.

It's just one more thing the self-proclaimed "world's biggest Dune fans" absolutely do not get. And it doesn't help that neither one of them has ever written an interesting character.
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Re: Writing Critique - ATTN: REDBUGPEST

Postby Nekhrun » 25 Jun 2009 22:13

TheDukester wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:Anybody can come up with an imaginary technical plot device ...

Or a Super Death Star (a cross that the Star Wars crowd has had to bear, courtesy of TheKeith).

I agree with the above sentiments: FH creating a wonderful SF setting with, overall, fairly primitive technology was just masterful. Power, in its different forms, comes from people with high levels of training, not from Super-Ultra-Death-Ray-Lasers wielded by cross-dressing SkyNet rejects.

It's just one more thing the self-proclaimed "world's biggest Dune fans" absolutely do not get. And it doesn't help that neither one of them has ever written an interesting character.

What about "TEH SUN CRUSHER"?
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Re: Writing Critique - ATTN: REDBUGPEST

Postby SadisticCynic » 26 Jun 2009 06:00

I was going to mention that as well. And just in keeping with the writing critique here's the first paragraph from Jedi Academy. Notice the overblown descriptions and (as far as I know) physics mistakes:

The black hole cluster near Kessel reached out for the Millenium Falcon with jaws of gravity, drawing it close. Even in the mottled blur of hyperspace, Han Solo could see the huge distortion as a bruised whirlpool, trying to suck them down to infinity.


:puke:
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Re: Writing Critique - ATTN: REDBUGPEST

Postby Lundse » 26 Jun 2009 06:04

Nekhrun wrote:
TheDukester wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:Anybody can come up with an imaginary technical plot device ...

Or a Super Death Star (a cross that the Star Wars crowd has had to bear, courtesy of TheKeith).What about "TEH SUN CRUSHER"?


Interesting, actually.

Because the Dune and Star Wars universes are so different in this aspect - and KJA's approach is a disaster in both of them.

Here's what I mean:

Dune is, as people have pointed out beautifully above, about restraint. BG have powers which harness all the subconscious stuff we already do (and some genetic memory, which is a disproven scientific idea, but not outright magic). You need prescience to travel faster than light (I love that idea, it makes so much sense and noone thought of it before Herbert).

Star Wars is about big ideas. The Empire built a plant-destroying battle-station. That's pretty darn impressive and provides the threat for all three originals, more or less. The force can do anything, you just have to harness is correctly. Huge brush strokes - making it a nice, fun, family, action-romp with some cool ideas.

KJA's solution is "more cowbell".
This is disastrous to Dune because it undermines everthing Frank did: the BG's mysterious body-control means nothing to the magic powers of the Rossak women. Pauls special place in history, examined in three goddamn books, mean nothing because Duncan was the über-special-KH-messiah (which is not fleshed out all, just stated outright). Leto II's machinations to save mankind mean nothing - Norma just appears and saves the day.

In Star Wars, the effect is not the same - but still bad, bad, bad. Death Star? How about a Sun Crusher? To a certain degree, this "fits" the universe - which is certainly about big brushes. But... It just ends up being an infinite arms-race. If Lucas had decided the Death Star should obliterate a whole solar system in Episode IV, what had KJA done? That's right - Galaxy Eater! One-upping the previous guy in relative power level is easy in fiction. So easy it becomes ridiculous. Fast.

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Re: Writing Critique

Postby redbugpest » 26 Jun 2009 09:37

A Thing of Eternity wrote:Conway, I’d love for you to pass this stuff on to KJA and see what he tells you to explain it![/color]


Well - you all have dumped a lot of stuff on me in a short period of time, so I am sure you will be patient while I digest it all before responding.
As far as this misguided belief that I am somehow here as some kind of go between, or am getting information or interpretations from anyone else, well that is just a fantasy foisted upon you by Chiggie.

I will say that you have raised some interesting points that I will give due consideration.






EDITED BY OMPHALOS to correct quotation errors.
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Re: Writing Critique

Postby Nekhrun » 26 Jun 2009 10:08

redbugpest wrote:
A Thing of Eternity wrote:Conway, I’d love for you to pass this stuff on to KJA and see what he tells you to explain it![/color]


Well - you all have dumped a lot of stuff on me in a short period of time, so I am sure you will be patient while I digest it all before responding.
As far as this misguided belief that I am somehow here as some kind of go between, or am getting information or interpretations from anyone else, well that is just a fantasy foisted upon you by Chiggie.

I will say that you have raised some interesting points that I will give due consideration.

Is that what thekeith told you to say?

By the way, thanks for at least trying to use the quote function...notice the difference between our posts. :wink:
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Re: Writing Critique

Postby TheDukester » 26 Jun 2009 10:15

redbugpest wrote:Well - you all have dumped a lot of stuff on me in a short period of time, so I am sure you will be patient while I digest it all before responding.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Having to "digest" sure didn't stop you from posting in 60 other threads. And it wasn't a "short period" of anything; those threads date from two days ago.

Good luck with this one, Bri-Bri. Not even getting your usual coaching from TheKJA is going to help here, since he's the one who made the hideous mistakes in the first place.

This is going to be fun. :dance:
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Re: Writing Critique - ATTN: REDBUGPEST

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 26 Jun 2009 10:37

Lundse wrote:KJA's solution is "more cowbell".


Nice.

redbugpest wrote:[


I expected from the beginning that it would take you a couple days to respond, this is indeed a lot being dumped on you. I sincerely hope that you do get some time to ponder the giant holes I have ripped in the argument that KJA is anything even aproaching a compitant writer.

As for that "fantasy foisted on me by Chig" - actually, I have become suspicious of that kind of tactic in arguing with me/us because it used to actually happen over at DN. If you are going to attempt to argue with me by yourself beyond saying "well, who cares about this kind of attention to detail" then I aplaud you. My comment was more intended to let you know that if you for whatever reason did feel like mentioning this stuff to KJA, that would not hurt my feelings.

EDIT: Something weird is fucked up right now. When I quote redbugpest it deletes his writing.
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Re: Writing Critique - ATTN: REDBUGPEST

Postby TheDukester » 26 Jun 2009 10:45

A Thing of Eternity wrote:When I quote redbugpest it deletes his writing.

There's a joke in there somewhere ...

... nah, too obvious. I'll let it go. :wink:
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Re: Writing Critique - ATTN: REDBUGPEST

Postby Tleszer » 26 Jun 2009 10:54

:lol:

If only little buggy could actually use the "quote" feature.

Or maybe he's paranoid and purposefully left out the " so that his posts couldn't be copied. :crazy:
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Re: Writing Critique

Postby Eyes High » 26 Jun 2009 14:01

redbugpest wrote:Well - you all have dumped a lot of stuff on me in a short period of time, so I am sure you will be patient while I digest it all before responding.


I admit that I like that approach. I would rather someone take the time to read and disgest the points made to him/her and write a clear and intellegent response to said points than for someone to blurt out the first thing that comes to mind if he/she is unsure of the facts/details.

I have asked y'all to wait while I seriousily thought about a 'tough' question that was posed to me in the political thread.

Allow me to play the devil's advocate here and say give him a chance to properly respond.
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