Dogged Dichotomies Reviewed by Claude Lalumière

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Re: Dogged Dichotomies Reviewed by Claude Lalumière

Postby MrFlibble » 06 Mar 2010 15:37

SandChigger wrote:A few facts about the Herbert Properties LLC (formerly Herbert Limited Partnership, thus HLP) that might help...

1. There are 11 members. Brian Herbert is the managing general partner. (I believe he and his half-sister Penny Merritt [FH's daughter by his first wife] were the executive partners under the limited partnership, with everyone else being associate or junior partners.) So HE is the one with the authority, on paper at least, to call the shots.

2. The other members are Brian and Penny's spouses and children and Frank Herbert's third wife: Jan, Julie, Margaux & Kim Herbert, and Ron, David, Byron and Robert Merritt, and Theresa Shackelford.

Brian Herbert was evidently the main heir, and possibly the executor of his father's estate. (I believe I've read somewhere that the HLP was set up before FH's death, but I have no idea at the moment where I saw it.) At any rate, he seems to be the one the lawyers contacted when the S&L turned up the safety deposit boxes. (Assuming that bit of the hagiography is true.)

Thanks for filling me in on this. I did not know these details and, perhaps, my previous conclusions were based on insufficient data.

SandChigger wrote:It's my suspicion that Brian Herbert wants to look like a bumbling fool, leaving KJA to take most of the blame for accomplishing Brian's real goal of destroying the hated rival of his oh so unhappy childhood: his father's work. ;)

That's one lovable little theory :lol: But do you think you'll be able to find any proof?

TheDukester wrote:The recent Children of Dune upside-down-art debacle is living evidence of that (seriously, did one person at HLP even bother to look at a proof? At this point, do the publishers even bother to contct the HLP any more?)

What about Children of Dune? I think I missed that...

TheDukester wrote:HLP = Brian Herbert, for all intents and purposes.

Could it be that, by placing all the responsibility on BH, you give yourself a justification for negative attitude towards him? (No offense, just a side note)

TheDukester wrote:
Besides, Kevin's books sell.

Bullshit. Kevin's books "sell" based exclusively on the licensed property that is on the front cover. Very, very few people bother to buy Kevin J. Anderson originals — the dismal sales of his Terrible Incoherent series are proof enough of that.

Oh, I meant exactly that (but probably put it the wrong way): KJA elaborated his own scheme of writing "books that sell" with minimum effort, by being a "co-author" of someone famous - preferably, if this someone is no longer capable of participating in the writing process. By no means did I imply that KJA's books sell on their own merit.

TheDukester wrote:The only name on those Dune covers that matters is "Herbert." The other author could be practically anyone and sales would almost assuredly still have fallen within a few thousand of where they already have.

Yet they chose KJA - and who knows why? Is there any evidence that BH personally singled KJA out of several candidates? The official story goes, IIRC, that KJA first contacted BH (through a mutual friend), offered cooperation, and BH promptly agreed, even though before that he was reluctant to touch Dune and try writing on his own in that field.

TheDukester wrote:
Once again, if he was able to do so.

Once again, do your research. There's years of pretty damning evidence out there.

Would be nice if you provided me with some links.

TheDukester wrote:Brian Herbert, a grown adult, could have said "no." It's just one word.

Suppose he did so, and then allowed himself to be persuaded to change his mind?

TheDukester wrote:I guess I do agree with you about the money part. I just don't see any reason other than greed** to suddenly turn a valuable, much-loved franchise over to a notorious hack. Maybe Brian needed money for something; maybe the HLP, in general, wanted to cash a few checks; maybe they saw Kevin as nothing more than a tool (*snort*) that could turn out McDune crap on an annual basis; maybe they are using him, and we're not giving them enough credit for their evil genius.

Actually, I have this very impression that KJA was hired to do specifically the job he's currently doing: churning out lots of books that are aggressively promoted to a large audience.

There's one more thing to it. You mentioned that BH could have taken a scholarly approach to Frank's legacy. He had an opportunity to do so for a long time before KJA ever showed up on the scene, and none of the excuses for not touching Dune like the ones applicable to actually writing a sequel on his own would work in this case. This fact alone (that he didn't do anything in that direction, although such course of action is pretty obvious) tells a lot about BH's/HLP's general attitude, doesn't it?

TheDukester wrote:It's certainly not an effort to love or honor Frank

Where did I say it was?
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Re: Dogged Dichotomies Reviewed by Claude Lalumière

Postby DuneFishUK » 06 Mar 2010 15:57

MrFlibble wrote:
TheDukester wrote:The recent Children of Dune upside-down-art debacle is living evidence of that (seriously, did one person at HLP even bother to look at a proof? At this point, do the publishers even bother to contct the HLP any more?)

What about Children of Dune? I think I missed that...

This:
Image

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Re: Dogged Dichotomies Reviewed by Claude Lalumière

Postby MrFlibble » 06 Mar 2010 16:05

DuneFishUK wrote:
MrFlibble wrote:
TheDukester wrote:The recent Children of Dune upside-down-art debacle is living evidence of that (seriously, did one person at HLP even bother to look at a proof? At this point, do the publishers even bother to contct the HLP any more?)

What about Children of Dune? I think I missed that...

This:
Image

Is this how they published the new reprint of Children? :shock: :lol: :roll:

Are they going to recall the books or anything?

(On a side note, my Gollanz copy of Children is really awful, with literally lots of typos and a generally ugly look, as if the entire books is a bad Xerox copy. Curiously, my Heretics by the same publisher have a much better quality)
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Re: Dogged Dichotomies Reviewed by Claude Lalumière

Postby Omphalos » 06 Mar 2010 16:56

:D

That cover thing always makes me smile.

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Re: Dogged Dichotomies Reviewed by Claude Lalumière

Postby TheDukester » 06 Mar 2010 17:23

MrFlibble wrote:Are they going to recall the books or anything?

Not only are they not going to recall anything, but at least two parties involved have actively denied there's even a problem.

1. ShutUpByron at Dunenovels didn't seem to think there was an issue (and then deleted some threads regarding the subject, if memory serves).

2. Someone here (almost sure it was Chiggie) contacted the publisher. A representative denied seeing a problem and said the artist assured her it was printed correctly. Which is, of course, complete bullshit.
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Re: Dogged Dichotomies Reviewed by Claude Lalumière

Postby Mr. Teg » 06 Mar 2010 20:26

Don't forget folks that Brian wrote a glowing review of Ai! Perdito which was KJA's collaboration with Hubbard.
This was before the "phone meeting" or whatever.

Then there's McNeilly and The DE.
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Re: Dogged Dichotomies Reviewed by Claude Lalumière

Postby SandChigger » 06 Mar 2010 21:23

TheDukester wrote:
MrFlibble wrote:Are they going to recall the books or anything?

2. Someone here (almost sure it was Chiggie) contacted the publisher.

Sorry, wasn't me. I think it was whoever first brought it up. Which was ... ???

MrFlibble wrote:
SandChigger wrote:It's my suspicion that Brian Herbert wants to look like a bumbling fool, leaving KJA to take most of the blame for accomplishing Brian's real goal of destroying the hated rival of his oh so unhappy childhood: his father's work. ;)

That's one lovable little theory :lol: But do you think you'll be able to find any proof?

Nah. But Byron was always so hot & heavy to deny it back in the old days on DN, that I like to bring it up again every now and then to piss him off. (Not that I think he reads stuff over here any more, but on the off chance one of the watchers reports back! :lol: )

Seriously, though, I think Brian Herbert is either an evil genius or he's a near complete idiot whose brain's been shot by years of alcohol abuse. That may be what so attracted KJA: the legacy of a great deceased author in the hands of a braindead wannabe. NO living author to interfere with him!
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Re: Dogged Dichotomies Reviewed by Claude Lalumière

Postby TheDukester » 06 Mar 2010 21:46

SandChigger wrote:That may be what so attracted KJA: the legacy of a great deceased author in the hands of a braindead wannabe.

My gut instinct is that this is pretty close to the truth. Kevvie must have been rubbing his little pig-hands with glee when he realized that the only thing keeping him from taking over Dune was a booze-addled, easily-manipulated, daddy-issue-having zombie who needed a few bucks.
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Re: Dogged Dichotomies Reviewed by Claude Lalumière

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 07 Mar 2010 04:03

Omphalos wrote::D

That cover thing always makes me smile.


Me too, because when it came out I remember sitting in the book store looking at it for ages, thinking it looked wrong, wondering if there was something wrong with how I was looking at it... then I saw it posted upside down here and all was made clear!

I heard that they actually DENIED that they had fucked up too, but I never saw the actual source for that.
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Re: Dogged Dichotomies Reviewed by Claude Lalumière

Postby MrFlibble » 07 Mar 2010 08:18

TheDukester wrote:Not only are they not going to recall anything, but at least two parties involved have actively denied there's even a problem.

1. ShutUpByron at Dunenovels didn't seem to think there was an issue (and then deleted some threads regarding the subject, if memory serves).

2. Someone here (almost sure it was Chiggie) contacted the publisher. A representative denied seeing a problem and said the artist assured her it was printed correctly. Which is, of course, complete bullshit.

FUUUN!!! BTW, do you keep record of all the attempts at shutting up people who ask inconvenient questions? Deleted threads/posts and banned users at DuneNovels are mentioned all the time, but do you have a concise list, preferably with some corpus delicti like saved copies of relevant pages etc.?

Omphalos wrote:That cover thing always makes me smile.

Heh, I also laughed a lot :lol:

A Thing of Eternity wrote:Me too, because when it came out I remember sitting in the book store looking at it for ages, thinking it looked wrong, wondering if there was something wrong with how I was looking at it... then I saw it posted upside down here and all was made clear!

International Bestseller FAIL

But seriously, this is just sad :(

A Thing of Eternity wrote:I heard that they actually DENIED that they had fucked up too, but I never saw the actual source for that.

Would be nice to have some proof, wouldn't it? Covering up mistakes - wasn't that one of the issues that Frank despised so much?
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Re: Dogged Dichotomies Reviewed by Claude Lalumière

Postby SandChigger » 07 Mar 2010 10:19

It looks like the cover mistake was found by user bluangel809 over on DN, in this thread:
http://forum.dunenovels.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2867

bluangel809 on DN wrote:K. My Story:
I was in my bed reading the first quarter of my new ACE hardcover edition. I was very confused looking at the cover when I bought the thing, being anal that I am about the book being in PERFECT condition. When at home I took a break and set the book down. I turned it upside down and said OH! it's supposed to be a dune! How could they make that HUGE of a mistake with mass market production? But, being as how fast they are pumping these soft/hard cover books out I would not rule a F up out completely.

I was so perplexed by this that I called up Penguin Group Publishing and spoke to a customer rep. who asked me about MY book and I said no mam it's ALL the books. So, she looked at the one on their main webpage and it's the same. Long story short she said that must be how they intended the pic to look. Somehow, I can hardly believe that. The pic looks much better it u flip the book.

I got another idea...how bout we scratch the pointless chic desert scenes and get some original artwork on that book. But hey...at least I still got the content. I'll jus take the soft cover off before I have a seizure.

Am I crazy? Or is the pic upside down?!

Thank you for listening to THE RANT.


bluangel809 on DN wrote:This is the response I got (basic company bs):

<<Thank you for your follow-up inquiry. The designer responded to us directly, and we have learned that the photo is not printed upside down. Because the photo is cropped and you are not able to see the whole expanse of the sand, perhaps to the eye it may appear as if this aerial photo was printed upside down.>>

This really makes me sick...and tells you what kind of product they pump out. :evil:

DuneFishUK caught it over there and reposted it here, here: viewtopic.php?p=26321#p26321

Note that Byron did not respond to the thread over there. He may have in another thread that I'm unaware of.

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Re: Dogged Dichotomies Reviewed by Claude Lalumière

Postby Nekhrun » 07 Mar 2010 10:56

I'm not sure if I did it correctly (potential fail), but I just loaded that pic on Fail Blog here: http://cheezburger.com/View.aspx?aid=3264260608

I guess it needs votes to make it to the homepage. I used the Fail uploader, but it's got some stupid cheeseburgers on it. Anyone else that knows that site a little better feel free to do it the right way.
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Re: Dogged Dichotomies Reviewed by Claude Lalumière

Postby SandRider » 07 Mar 2010 11:01

FUUUN!!! BTW, do you keep record of all the attempts at shutting up people who ask inconvenient questions? Deleted threads/posts and banned users at DuneNovels are mentioned all the time, but do you have a concise list, preferably with some corpus delicti like saved copies of relevant pages etc.?



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Re: Dogged Dichotomies Reviewed by Claude Lalumière

Postby TheDukester » 07 Mar 2010 12:42

MrFlibble wrote:BTW, do you keep record of all the attempts at shutting up people who ask inconvenient questions? Deleted threads/posts and banned users at DuneNovels are mentioned all the time, but do you have a concise list, preferably with some corpus delicti like saved copies of relevant pages etc.?

Honestly, ShutUpByron's deletions are so over-the-top ridiculous that it would almost impossible to track them. Quite literally, any criticism of the HLP/TheKJA/Bobo Herbert/McDune is deleted as soon as he catches up with it, no matter how well-reasoned, truthful, or well-written said criticism is. They are more comfortable over there if all the drones obey their programming.

That being said, there are two must-read threads for you here, both with similar names. They are valuable because much of the nonsense over there has been captured forever, and there's not a damn thing that ShutUpByron can do about it. Links:

Shit that should be deleted

Shit that will be deleted
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Re: Dogged Dichotomies Reviewed by Claude Lalumière

Postby MrFlibble » 07 Mar 2010 13:20

TheDukester wrote:Honestly, ShutUpByron's deletions are so over-the-top ridiculous that it would almost impossible to track them. Quite literally, any criticism of the HLP/TheKJA/Bobo Herbert/McDune is deleted as soon as he catches up with it, no matter how well-reasoned, truthful, or well-written said criticism is. They are more comfortable over there if all the drones obey their programming.

Wow, I never imagined it would be that bad. Is it also true you can get banned even if you posted nothing "offensive", only because you're registered here under the same nick?

Oh, and is there proof of the fact that SandChigger's post with the question about Chisra Sala Muad'Dib was deleted?
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Re: Dogged Dichotomies Reviewed by Claude Lalumière

Postby SandChigger » 07 Mar 2010 15:39

MrFlibble wrote:Oh, and is there proof of the fact that SandChigger's post with the question about Chisra Sala Muad'Dib was deleted?

Where do you mean? No one has ever posted anything about it that I know of over on DuneNovels.

I've posted the question several times on the "Official Dune" page on Facebook, a few times as a Wall post (on the main/front page for that fan group) and once as a discussion topic. They've deleted it repeatedly.

As far as "proof", though, I didn't take a screenshot every time I've posted it, so if you want something more than my word for it...?

Eras Omnius from FED2k showed up there (with his "genetic trust" bullshit again) and we had a longish conversation going on the Wall, but they deleted it a few days ago. (Supposedly a representative from TOR and Brian's daughter Kim are the two admins there. But I think they don't pay very much attention to it. It's like someone drops by every week or so and deletes the stuff they don't like. It's pretty dead, either way. The "Dune Saga" group is where Byron and Kevin & Rebecca and the rest of them hang out and post more often. :roll: )
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Re: Dogged Dichotomies Reviewed by Claude Lalumière

Postby SandRider » 07 Mar 2010 21:01

Is it also true you can get banned even if you posted nothing "offensive", only because you're registered here under the same nick?


search "prebanned" on this board ....
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Re: Dogged Dichotomies Reviewed by Claude Lalumière

Postby MrFlibble » 08 Mar 2010 12:52

SandChigger wrote:
MrFlibble wrote:Oh, and is there proof of the fact that SandChigger's post with the question about Chisra Sala Muad'Dib was deleted?

Where do you mean? No one has ever posted anything about it that I know of over on DuneNovels.

Ah sorry, I thought it was posted on DN as well.

SandChigger wrote:As far as "proof", though, I didn't take a screenshot every time I've posted it, so if you want something more than my word for it...?

Not me, I just thought it would be nice to have some proof right in their face in front of a large audience, and hear their explanations.
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Re: Dogged Dichotomies Reviewed by Claude Lalumière

Postby SandChigger » 08 Mar 2010 20:36

But that's the problem, they don't have the courage to interact with anyone on a forum they don't control (they of course call it "taking the high road" :roll: ), so even if you post something like that in front of a bunch of people, they just delete it. If it's somewhere they can't delete it (or coerce the admins to delete it), they just ignore it.

On Facebook I mail/messages Kim Herbert and asked her to ask her father what the source of that "Chisra Sala Muad'Dib" bullshit was. She ignored me. So I reposted the message in the Official Dune page discussion forum on Facebook. They ignored it for a while (a few days or so), then deleted it. I even resent the message to "Archie Herbert", which it has turned out is Kim posting as the family dog, because I thought it might be Brian in disguise. No response. Kim is, AFAIK, nominally the HLP secretary and one of the admins of that page, so I didn't think it was a problem contacting her directly. I haven't and won't contact any of the rest of the Herbert Swarm about it.

I didn't try Byron, for instance, because I figured that down in California he's about as out of the loop as you can get. He probably wouldn't have replied, either, anyway.

Anyway, they think they don't have to answer to anyone on this, and in real, practical terms they're right. They're fooling themselves, though, if they think people aren't watching and won't remember this stuff. ;)
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Re: Dogged Dichotomies Reviewed by Claude Lalumière

Postby SandRider » 08 Mar 2010 21:18

okay, so everybody that's wanted to give Kim a pass because she
"seems like a nice person" ready to recant ?
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Re: Dogged Dichotomies Reviewed by Claude Lalumière

Postby SandChigger » 09 Mar 2010 00:56

She's devoted to her father, and they've closed ranks further. I don't blame her, but neither do I excuse her: she's the admin of that page and as HLP secretary presumably handles inquiries and other communications. (She's the one handled Omphalos' initial inquiries, IIRC.) Whatever I've said about their family and her father in particular (btw, I've been thinking it's time for some new "Life of Brian" comics) in the past, my inquiry was a valid one, so it's typical of their continuing unprofessionalism for her not to even respond.

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Re: Dogged Dichotomies Reviewed by Claude Lalumière

Postby MrFlibble » 09 Mar 2010 13:03

SandChigger wrote:But that's the problem, they don't have the courage to interact with anyone on a forum they don't control (they of course call it "taking the high road" :roll: ), so even if you post something like that in front of a bunch of people, they just delete it. If it's somewhere they can't delete it (or coerce the admins to delete it), they just ignore it.

Well, what about confronting them somewhere else? I don't think purposefully deleting negative reviews at Amazon (or elsewhere) is as innocent as it seems... And what's with encouraging writing positive reviews with promises of "gifts" and the like? All of it could be considered a strategy of swaying customers to buy their books which is questionable at best.

SandChigger wrote:On Facebook I mail/messages Kim Herbert and asked her to ask her father what the source of that "Chisra Sala Muad'Dib" bullshit was. She ignored me. So I reposted the message in the Official Dune page discussion forum on Facebook. They ignored it for a while (a few days or so), then deleted it. I even resent the message to "Archie Herbert", which it has turned out is Kim posting as the family dog, because I thought it might be Brian in disguise. No response. Kim is, AFAIK, nominally the HLP secretary and one of the admins of that page, so I didn't think it was a problem contacting her directly. I haven't and won't contact any of the rest of the Herbert Swarm about it.

Hmm, I guess technically they have the right not to answer. What about asking it personally at some SciFiCon or whatever public event they might attend?

SandChigger wrote:Anyway, they think they don't have to answer to anyone on this, and in real, practical terms they're right. They're fooling themselves, though, if they think people aren't watching and won't remember this stuff. ;)

I fancy Kevin learned from that time he answered your e-mail :lol:
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Re: Dogged Dichotomies Reviewed by Claude Lalumière

Postby SandChigger » 09 Mar 2010 19:33

Yeah, he's none too bright. That's another of those times he let his inner 13-year-old priss answer before he really thought about it. ;)
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Re: Dogged Dichotomies Reviewed by Claude Lalumière

Postby Omphalos » 09 Mar 2010 22:42

No kidding. There's little that is more fun than watching a self righteous asshole spout off in anger.

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Re: Dogged Dichotomies Reviewed by Claude Lalumière

Postby colleenish » 10 Mar 2010 11:15

Hey, just stopping by to say hello; saw that you guys were commenting on my thing about Brian Herbert and his anxiety of influence, otherwise known as being a greedy hack.

Love the site; thought I'd hang around and check out Freakzilla's commentary on God Emperor, if you don't mind me hanging around...