ATTN: Redbugpest Winds v. Dune

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Re: ATTN: Redbugpest Winds v. Dune

Postby Ampoliros » 08 Aug 2009 13:20

Now I will show you how an OH answers questions. Hopefully you will recognize my point in asking these questions. I’m going to rearrange some of the questions since some need to be answer before others. I commend you for actually responding. Time for school.

redbugpest wrote:“Page 24, Shaddam's envoy arrives. They say it was less than a month since Paul died. Page 25 Alia comments on how "it's been a month" since Paul died”
The difference is that one is the voice of the narrator, while the other is actual dialog. People do have a tendency to round dates and times to approximate in conversation. I think that it is just as correct for Alia to refer to 27 days as a month.
Sure we round dates, but Alia seems one moment to be amazed how fast he got there and also dismissive of ‘well, it has been a month’ in the same page; yet she still hasn’t told her own mother that Paul died.

My earlier comment was meant as a tongue and cheek response. In all reality, Alia would have been the one to make the decision on when and how to inform Jessica, as Isbar mentioned on Page 32. I direct you to the next question.

Why does Shaddam know about Paul's Death before Jessica?
Shaddam, being a rival for the throne, would have had a spy network, and would know of these events rapidly.
Excellent! Yes, he'd have a spy network. +1 point for the redbug. Now, here's where you lose. Why does Shaddam's spy network come as a surprise to Alia? Alia(KJA) seems to act like she’s the only one with a spy network. Jessica has her own feelers in Alia’s court, as does Gurney. Why then is this information all over the universe in a few days yet Jessica doesn’t hear about it?

Which leads us to:


“We needed to make the proper arrangements, and gather a party of appropriate importance. It was necessary to obtain a sufficiently impressive Guild ship to bring this terrible news”
Isbar – Page 32
“…we took the first vessel available after Regent Alia…”
Here we have two conversations. In the context of the first conversation, Isbar is upset by Jessica’s angry outburst, and is obviously searching for excuses for the long delay in getting word to Jessica. No.

In the second conversation, Isbar is now trying to impress Jessica with the power of Alia and the priesthood by claiming that they took the first ship available, forcing all the passengers to be delayed. No, its just because you either have 2 writers who don’t check each other’s work, or you have a dicta-hiking ‘author’ who ‘edits’ his books while watching summer blockbusters on DVD. And borrows/lifts heavily from them.

Isbar is now being pushed into the role of a sycophant, which is in keeping with the tenor of the religion as it evolves into what we see in later in CoD. Yes, because in KJA dune, if you are a high priest all you love is power and you want to kill your gods so you can rule supreme in their name. Because Korba did it. Because Javid is going to do it. Therefore High-Priest= assassination plot. Fanboys rejoice. BTW Isbar’s assassination plot is all announced and dealt with in less than a page. But we do get a wayku scene where Gurney kills him all Godfather style.

The main point of this question leads into KJA’s complete disregard for how a monopoly on space travel: The Guild, would operate. Imagine if the only way to get around on Earth was the 747. No radio, no satilites, the 747’s are the fastest and only method of travel. Okay a crisis breaks out in France, and the French Premire needs to get to NYC as fast as possible. Do they delay a passenger 747 to get him there? Or is it possible, just maybe, they they have a 747 set aside for diplomatic measures. France isn’t the richest country on Earth, but they sure as shit will put aside cash to keep one of those 747s on standby for such emergencies. I'm also pretty sure 747s travel from place to place more than once every few weeks
Just because the Heighliner is the only Guild ship mentioned in Dune doesn’t mean the Guild ONLY uses Heighliners. KJA himself seems to switch often between Houses using diplomatic couriers to send messages quickly. In fact if it fits the story, the message gets there instantly via courier, yet main characters have to travel passenger class, usually taking days to get somewhere.
In Winds he even mentions one of the private frigates that House Atredies uses to travel via heighliner, yet it seems like Gurney, Jessica, and Duncan are always out in the passenger areas. Oh, right, to build tension.


In regards to some of the other questions:

Why does Jessica not know Chani is pregnant?
Not sure - don’t remember if she knew in the originals
They have almost nine months in which to tell her (the pregnacy was accelerated, but I don't think that means it happend overnight). The Bene Gesserit Breeding Program is a major component in Dune lore. The Bene Gesserit would be extremely interested in Paul’s kids, don’t you think? Shaddam has a spy network, Jessica and Gurney have a spy network, the Bene Gesseritt absolutely know that Chani is pregnant, they tell Irulan she might have to abort any pregnancy in Dune Messiah. Aside from their multiple concerns over Chani’s wild bloodline, there are multiple political concerns surrounding Paul’s having an heir to his empire.

Why is security in nuDune a complete joke?
Security was a joke all throughout the novels. HO(w) come there was a seeker hunter in Paul’s bedroom? How did Duncan get a weapon into Leto II’s presence? Security have to be flawed for the story to move along.
Security is never perfect. However I’m insulted personally and intellectually when Dune was OCD about security and nuDune seems to consider security as an annoyance. Flawed to move the story along? Having a Harkonnnen assassin sealed in a false wall for a hopeful attempt on Paul’s life is one thing. The fact that Marie Fenring wasn’t immediately wrestled to the ground by Fremen guards when she crawled under the table is insulting (iirc, the guards actually chuckle and think its cute...). Fremen are insane about security, and they see Paul as their messiah. Yet Marie secrets a blade on Muad’dib’s table for later use. Don’t you think the Fremen and Atredies security teams in charge of Paul’s personal security would be a bit more careful than just relying on scanners? In Winds, Paul’s funeral urn is tampered with and Bronso of IX secrets a holo projector in it. Unidentified ornithopters fly over and spray clouds for the projection. Alia seems puzzled at their appearance. Wouldn’t her first reaction to their appearance be worry that they might be part of an attack? How did they get into that airspace? If you are going to require mental acrobatics ‘to build tension’ you at least need to answer obvious questions at how it’s so easy to breech Imperial security.

Why are all of the Female characters, even Royals and Regents forced to use public landing zones when male characters can take off from the Palace landing pad?
Security question: Why are high-risk targets walking through a public landing zone. Do we make our leaders use public transportation? To move the story along? The assassination attempt is all of 3 paragraphs and then ignored. “Oh well people are going to try to kill me…la te da.”


How are Paul and Bronso hiding on the Cargo lander for "several hours" and then on the Heighliner and gone before anyone notices?
To build drama in the story.
Having something happen simply to ‘build drama’ is never a good enough answer. I was half waiting for a magic hobo to show up and show the boys how to play harmonica and ride the rails. They could even have brought in a mean old conductor! Again, this is a security question. Sure the boys would be able to slip their escorts and run off and disappear, but the fact that it takes several hours before anyone notices is rather insulting.

Why does the Guild punish Paul and Bronso for attempting (and in Bronso's case succeeding) to see a Navigator with exile to the Jongleur troop?
They know who the boys are. If we go by Dune Canon, this kind of security breach would have cost House Atredies and House Vernius their guild travel privileges. Imagine your cousin stealing his dad’s car and taking it for a joyride and getting caught. Instead of a ticket, they revoke his license to drive and everyone else he is related to as well. Oh and apparently the Guild doesn’t wonder at how they got there. This is a serious breach of the guilds Security and heads will roll. The mutation of the Guild Navigators is their most closely guarded secret at this point in time.

Why do House Atredies and House Vernius (sic) take so long to find their heirs?
I forgot, its to build tension. The Guild representative shows up and demands payment for the time Paul and Bronso spent on their ship. Why would the Guild be totally unwilling to redirect runaway members of House Atredies and House Vernius (sic) home at the families expense as well? No, they’d rather be dicks. To build tension.

Why does Leto punish Paul only by sending him to his room to think about his actions.
Since we are in magic KJA tension land, lets not deal with the real life consequence of having the family trade rights revoked and House Atredies relegated to minor house status for such a major-fuck up.

Why does a planetary governor pardon and release Jongleur dancers when Paul knows they are assassins who tried to assassinate said governor? What, no answer? Seriously? That’s like the Secret Service letting James Wilkes Boothe go because he was friends with the Stage Manager. He was just a scapegoat anyway.

Why do the Bene Gesseritt not care at all that Young Paul has gone missing?
They were mad a Jessica, and punishing her. Besides, if Paul died young, they would be able to get Jessica to bear the girl she was ordered to in the first place.
This answer shows that you know or care very little about how and why the Dune universe works the way it did and why the original was such great sci-fi.
What about Paul do the Bene Gesseritt fear?
Why would he be of interest to them?
WHY WAS JESSICA SUPPOSED TO BEAR A DAUGHTER?
WHY WOULD THEY BE MAD THAT SHE DEFIED THEM?
WHAT ARE THE TWO MAJOR INTERESTS OF THE BENE GESSERIT AND THEIR WHOLE REASON FOR EXISTING?

Last edited by Ampoliros on 08 Aug 2009 13:28, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ATTN: Redbugpest Winds v. Dune

Postby TheDukester » 08 Aug 2009 13:26

redbugpest wrote:They had spaceships, and personal shields, and other toys that would be much more advanced that anything we have today...

They also fought with swords.

A quick recap for you:

Star Wars = high-tech;

Star Trek = very high-tech;

Dune = low-tech;

Kevin J. Anderson = cannot change the oil in his car.
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Re: ATTN: Redbugpest Winds v. Dune

Postby Ampoliros » 08 Aug 2009 13:34

TheDukester wrote:
redbugpest wrote:They had spaceships, and personal shields, and other toys that would be much more advanced that anything we have today...

They also fought with swords.

A quick recap for you:

Star Wars = high-tech;

Star Trek = very high-tech;

Dune = low-tech;

Kevin J. Anderson = cannot change the oil in his car.


Thanks Duke, now i have to clean off my monitor. :laughing-rollingred:
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Re: ATTN: Redbugpest Winds v. Dune

Postby TheDukester » 08 Aug 2009 13:43

redbugpest wrote:How else would Paul get Mapes to be indebted to him, and give him the warning?

Are you being serious with this? Really?

There's only about 10,000 ways a competent author can bring two characters together if he feels the demands of the story call for it. Frank Herbert was more than competent, so I trust his instincts to decide what was best for his story. He chose a scenario that involved a botched security detail; he could just as easily have picked another avenue to bring the characters together. His choices were, for all practical purposes, without limit; he was bound only by the internal logic of the world he had established up to that point.

Yet you are going to build the entire foundation of your argument on some nit-picky point about hidden walls and poor security? And then throw in some crap about Star Wars-esque "thermal imaging"? Are you for real? That is what you want to build your argument on? Please say you're kidding.

He could have had those characters meet out on the street, Bri-Guy. Do you not see that? Instead, he wove together a very strong scene that involved treachery, suspense, and a nice little piece of action to round things off. And he reminded his readers — without simply telling them, as that hack KJA would have done — that the Harkonnens were always going to be a danger, and that just because they had been removed from the planet didn't mean that they still couldn't strike.

What is it about any of this that you just do not get?
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Re: ATTN: Redbugpest Winds v. Dune

Postby Serkanner » 08 Aug 2009 13:45

redbugpest wrote:
Serkanner wrote:
redbugpest wrote:
TheDukester wrote:
redbugpest wrote:... and I cannot imagin that with all of the high tech stuff they had ...

Did you just say Dune is a "high-tech" setting? :shock:

Seriously?

You realize they don't even have pocket calculators, right? You realize that the Butlerian Jihad basically froze all of the various technologies where they were at the time? And instead promoted human advancement over technological advancement?

Or maybe you don't ... :doh:


They had spaceships, and personal shields, and other toys that would be much more advanced that anything we have today... I find it hard to beleive that they could not do thermal scanning.....


You are aware that if you use the premise that the future is more advanced they also are probably more advanced in "fooling" security systems?

Now ... THINK again Conway. Your arguments do not hold any value so far.


Where does it say how they fooled the security. And please don't cite the sealed in a wall passage. it is really not that concrete an argument.

Now you are creating the same kinds of leaps of logic that you call me out on.



YOU used the premise of future technology, not me. This is becoming ridiculous. It is liking talking to a five year old.

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Re: ATTN: Redbugpest Winds v. Dune

Postby Nekhrun » 08 Aug 2009 14:26

Nekhrun wrote:
redbugpest wrote:Security was a joke all throughout the novels.

Go.

You said throughout the novels...

Go.
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Re: ATTN: Redbugpest Winds v. Dune

Postby redbugpest » 08 Aug 2009 14:48

Ampoliros wrote:Now I will show you how an OH answers questions. Hopefully you will recognize my point in asking these questions. I’m going to rearrange some of the questions since some need to be answer before others. I commend you for actually responding. Time for school.

redbugpest wrote:“Page 24, Shaddam's envoy arrives. They say it was less than a month since Paul died. Page 25 Alia comments on how "it's been a month" since Paul died”
The difference is that one is the voice of the narrator, while the other is actual dialog. People do have a tendency to round dates and times to approximate in conversation. I think that it is just as correct for Alia to refer to 27 days as a month.
Sure we round dates, but Alia seems one moment to be amazed how fast he got there and also dismissive of ‘well, it has been a month’ in the same page; yet she still hasn’t told her own mother that Paul died.

My earlier comment was meant as a tongue and cheek response. In all reality, Alia would have been the one to make the decision on when and how to inform Jessica, as Isbar mentioned on Page 32. I direct you to the next question.

Why does Shaddam know about Paul's Death before Jessica?
Shaddam, being a rival for the throne, would have had a spy network, and would know of these events rapidly.
Excellent! Yes, he'd have a spy network. +1 point for the redbug. Now, here's where you lose. Why does Shaddam's spy network come as a surprise to Alia? Alia(KJA) seems to act like she’s the only one with a spy network. Jessica has her own feelers in Alia’s court, as does Gurney. Why then is this information all over the universe in a few days yet Jessica doesn’t hear about it?

Which leads us to:


“We needed to make the proper arrangements, and gather a party of appropriate importance. It was necessary to obtain a sufficiently impressive Guild ship to bring this terrible news”
Isbar – Page 32
“…we took the first vessel available after Regent Alia…”
Here we have two conversations. In the context of the first conversation, Isbar is upset by Jessica’s angry outburst, and is obviously searching for excuses for the long delay in getting word to Jessica. No.

In the second conversation, Isbar is now trying to impress Jessica with the power of Alia and the priesthood by claiming that they took the first ship available, forcing all the passengers to be delayed. No, its just because you either have 2 writers who don’t check each other’s work, or you have a dicta-hiking ‘author’ who ‘edits’ his books while watching summer blockbusters on DVD. And borrows/lifts heavily from them.

Isbar is now being pushed into the role of a sycophant, which is in keeping with the tenor of the religion as it evolves into what we see in later in CoD. Yes, because in KJA dune, if you are a high priest all you love is power and you want to kill your gods so you can rule supreme in their name. Because Korba did it. Because Javid is going to do it. Therefore High-Priest= assassination plot. Fanboys rejoice. BTW Isbar’s assassination plot is all announced and dealt with in less than a page. But we do get a wayku scene where Gurney kills him all Godfather style.

The main point of this question leads into KJA’s complete disregard for how a monopoly on space travel: The Guild, would operate. Imagine if the only way to get around on Earth was the 747. No radio, no satilites, the 747’s are the fastest and only method of travel. Okay a crisis breaks out in France, and the French Premire needs to get to NYC as fast as possible. Do they delay a passenger 747 to get him there? Or is it possible, just maybe, they they have a 747 set aside for diplomatic measures. France isn’t the richest country on Earth, but they sure as shit will put aside cash to keep one of those 747s on standby for such emergencies. I'm also pretty sure 747s travel from place to place more than once every few weeks
Just because the Heighliner is the only Guild ship mentioned in Dune doesn’t mean the Guild ONLY uses Heighliners. KJA himself seems to switch often between Houses using diplomatic couriers to send messages quickly. In fact if it fits the story, the message gets there instantly via courier, yet main characters have to travel passenger class, usually taking days to get somewhere.
In Winds he even mentions one of the private frigates that House Atredies uses to travel via heighliner, yet it seems like Gurney, Jessica, and Duncan are always out in the passenger areas. Oh, right, to build tension.


In regards to some of the other questions:

Why does Jessica not know Chani is pregnant?
Not sure - don’t remember if she knew in the originals
They have almost nine months in which to tell her (the pregnacy was accelerated, but I don't think that means it happend overnight). The Bene Gesserit Breeding Program is a major component in Dune lore. The Bene Gesserit would be extremely interested in Paul’s kids, don’t you think? Shaddam has a spy network, Jessica and Gurney have a spy network, the Bene Gesseritt absolutely know that Chani is pregnant, they tell Irulan she might have to abort any pregnancy in Dune Messiah. Aside from their multiple concerns over Chani’s wild bloodline, there are multiple political concerns surrounding Paul’s having an heir to his empire.

Why is security in nuDune a complete joke?
Security was a joke all throughout the novels. HO(w) come there was a seeker hunter in Paul’s bedroom? How did Duncan get a weapon into Leto II’s presence? Security have to be flawed for the story to move along.
Security is never perfect. However I’m insulted personally and intellectually when Dune was OCD about security and nuDune seems to consider security as an annoyance. Flawed to move the story along? Having a Harkonnnen assassin sealed in a false wall for a hopeful attempt on Paul’s life is one thing. The fact that Marie Fenring wasn’t immediately wrestled to the ground by Fremen guards when she crawled under the table is insulting (iirc, the guards actually chuckle and think its cute...). Fremen are insane about security, and they see Paul as their messiah. Yet Marie secrets a blade on Muad’dib’s table for later use. Don’t you think the Fremen and Atredies security teams in charge of Paul’s personal security would be a bit more careful than just relying on scanners? In Winds, Paul’s funeral urn is tampered with and Bronso of IX secrets a holo projector in it. Unidentified ornithopters fly over and spray clouds for the projection. Alia seems puzzled at their appearance. Wouldn’t her first reaction to their appearance be worry that they might be part of an attack? How did they get into that airspace? If you are going to require mental acrobatics ‘to build tension’ you at least need to answer obvious questions at how it’s so easy to breech Imperial security.

Why are all of the Female characters, even Royals and Regents forced to use public landing zones when male characters can take off from the Palace landing pad?
Security question: Why are high-risk targets walking through a public landing zone. Do we make our leaders use public transportation? To move the story along? The assassination attempt is all of 3 paragraphs and then ignored. “Oh well people are going to try to kill me…la te da.”


How are Paul and Bronso hiding on the Cargo lander for "several hours" and then on the Heighliner and gone before anyone notices?
To build drama in the story.
Having something happen simply to ‘build drama’ is never a good enough answer. I was half waiting for a magic hobo to show up and show the boys how to play harmonica and ride the rails. They could even have brought in a mean old conductor! Again, this is a security question. Sure the boys would be able to slip their escorts and run off and disappear, but the fact that it takes several hours before anyone notices is rather insulting.

Why does the Guild punish Paul and Bronso for attempting (and in Bronso's case succeeding) to see a Navigator with exile to the Jongleur troop?
They know who the boys are. If we go by Dune Canon, this kind of security breach would have cost House Atredies and House Vernius their guild travel privileges. Imagine your cousin stealing his dad’s car and taking it for a joyride and getting caught. Instead of a ticket, they revoke his license to drive and everyone else he is related to as well. Oh and apparently the Guild doesn’t wonder at how they got there. This is a serious breach of the guilds Security and heads will roll. The mutation of the Guild Navigators is their most closely guarded secret at this point in time.

Why do House Atredies and House Vernius (sic) take so long to find their heirs?
I forgot, its to build tension. The Guild representative shows up and demands payment for the time Paul and Bronso spent on their ship. Why would the Guild be totally unwilling to redirect runaway members of House Atredies and House Vernius (sic) home at the families expense as well? No, they’d rather be dicks. To build tension.

Why does Leto punish Paul only by sending him to his room to think about his actions.
Since we are in magic KJA tension land, lets not deal with the real life consequence of having the family trade rights revoked and House Atredies relegated to minor house status for such a major-fuck up.

Why does a planetary governor pardon and release Jongleur dancers when Paul knows they are assassins who tried to assassinate said governor? What, no answer? Seriously? That’s like the Secret Service letting James Wilkes Boothe go because he was friends with the Stage Manager. He was just a scapegoat anyway.

Why do the Bene Gesseritt not care at all that Young Paul has gone missing?
They were mad a Jessica, and punishing her. Besides, if Paul died young, they would be able to get Jessica to bear the girl she was ordered to in the first place.
This answer shows that you know or care very little about how and why the Dune universe works the way it did and why the original was such great sci-fi.
What about Paul do the Bene Gesseritt fear?
Why would he be of interest to them?
WHY WAS JESSICA SUPPOSED TO BEAR A DAUGHTER?
WHY WOULD THEY BE MAD THAT SHE DEFIED THEM?
WHAT ARE THE TWO MAJOR INTERESTS OF THE BENE GESSERIT AND THEIR WHOLE REASON FOR EXISTING?



I'm going to break this up into several replies as it is getting too long...

Sure we round dates, but Alia seems one moment to be amazed how fast he got there and also dismissive of ‘well, it has been a month’ in the same page; yet she still hasn’t told her own mother that Paul died.

Alia’s comment about it being a month is more in the form of a rhetorical statement, expressing her own observation of how fast time seems to slip by in a crisis situation. Kind of like a reinforcing statement. It’s been a month. Seems like he was just here yesterday, be he has been gone a month. The how fast statement is to convey the effectiveness of the former Emperor’s spy network, and to remind the audience that the Corrino house still could pose a threat, now that Paul is gone.
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Re: ATTN: Redbugpest Winds v. Dune

Postby redbugpest » 08 Aug 2009 14:48

The main point of this question leads into KJA’s complete disregard for how a monopoly on space travel: The Guild, would operate. Imagine if the only way to get around on Earth was the 747. No radio, no satilites, the 747’s are the fastest and only method of travel. Okay a crisis breaks out in France, and the French Premire needs to get to NYC as fast as possible. Do they delay a passenger 747 to get him there? Or is it possible, just maybe, they they have a 747 set aside for diplomatic measures. France isn’t the richest country on Earth, but they sure as shit will put aside cash to keep one of those 747s on standby for such emergencies. I'm also pretty sure 747s travel from place to place more than once every few weeks
Just because the Heighliner is the only Guild ship mentioned in Dune doesn’t mean the Guild ONLY uses Heighliners. KJA himself seems to switch often between Houses using diplomatic couriers to send messages quickly. In fact if it fits the story, the message gets there instantly via courier, yet main characters have to travel passenger class, usually taking days to get somewhere.
In Winds he even mentions one of the private frigates that House Atredies uses to travel via heighliner, yet it seems like Gurney, Jessica, and Duncan are always out in the passenger areas. Oh, right, to build tension.


You are really stretching it a bit here. Every one of the ships that use fold space requires a navigator, and there are only a finite number of them. Even, for the sake of argument, we say that Alia has personal navigator (which no one ever claims is the case) it does not mean that she would surrender it for the use of informing her mother. Remember, they are not exactly close, and Alia has bigger concerns to worry about. There is nothing like a normal family dynamic going on here.

Are you trying to imply that at any given time there would be one or more guild ships at all of the worlds in the empire?

From page 33
“Once docked aboard the Highliner, Jessica and Gurney left the comfort of the frigate and went out into the common areas. In nondescript clothing, they drew no attention to themselves as then entered the promenade. Isabar had already told her his version of Muad’ Dib’s death; Jessica wanted to hear what the people were saying.”

It would seem that they mingled to gather information first hand.
What class are you teaching? Twisted Logic? :doh:
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Re: ATTN: Redbugpest Winds v. Dune

Postby redbugpest » 08 Aug 2009 15:18

They have almost nine months in which to tell her (the pregnacy was accelerated, but I don't think that means it happend overnight). The Bene Gesserit Breeding Program is a major component in Dune lore. The Bene Gesserit would be extremely interested in Paul’s kids, don’t you think? Shaddam has a spy network, Jessica and Gurney have a spy network, the Bene Gesseritt absolutely know that Chani is pregnant, they tell Irulan she might have to abort any pregnancy in Dune Messiah. Aside from their multiple concerns over Chani’s wild bloodline, there are multiple political concerns surrounding Paul’s having an heir to his empire.

Paul had presence, and may not have wanted his mother to know, because he did not want her to be there. Since FH never said one way or the other about if Paul told her, either option is fair game.

Where do you see evidence the Jessica and Gurney are spying on Paul and Chani? Jessica is gone, back on Caladan to grieve for her Duke. Again, we are not dealing with anything like a normal family dynamic here.
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Re: ATTN: Redbugpest Winds v. Dune

Postby Ampoliros » 08 Aug 2009 15:37

How many fold-capable ships do you consider Arrakis to have in orbit at any one time. It's the Imperial seat, and the religious mecca: its a fairly easy suggestion that the Guild would have multiple ships in orbit coming and going. Its rather ridiculous to suggest that the Guild has a ship that goes to Arrakis only once a month. (If this is so, then why are the travel times between other planets measured in days) Since space travel happens instantly, the Guild would have several types of ships available: Heighliners are the big cargo ships that can carry obscene amounts of material and smaller ships to take passengers since the loading times for the Heighliners is probably measured in days. The guild would offer "fast" courier services for people who needed messages taken rapidly. (remember here the terms fast mean number of stops and loading times since travel time is instant.)

I am in no way suggesting the Guild has a navigator and ship dedicated for every planet and every Major House. I do think that in the interest of serving the Landsraad, they would have government sponsored ships (at great profit to the Guild financially and politically) who's primary service was diplomatic travel.
Do you think Guild representatives use Heighliners for internal communication?
Even in Winds of Dune, KJA suggests that the Jihad pressed ships into service.
On multiple occasions, he mentions Guild Couriers.
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Re: ATTN: Redbugpest Winds v. Dune

Postby Ampoliros » 08 Aug 2009 15:51

redbugpest wrote:They have almost nine months in which to tell her (the pregnacy was accelerated, but I don't think that means it happend overnight). The Bene Gesserit Breeding Program is a major component in Dune lore. The Bene Gesserit would be extremely interested in Paul’s kids, don’t you think? Shaddam has a spy network, Jessica and Gurney have a spy network, the Bene Gesseritt absolutely know that Chani is pregnant, they tell Irulan she might have to abort any pregnancy in Dune Messiah. Aside from their multiple concerns over Chani’s wild bloodline, there are multiple political concerns surrounding Paul’s having an heir to his empire.

Paul had pres(ci)ence, and may not have wanted his mother to know, because he did not want her to be there. Since FH never said one way or the other about if Paul told her, either option is fair game.

Where do you see evidence the Jessica and Gurney are spying on Paul and Chani? Jessica is gone, back on Caladan to grieve for her Duke. Again, we are not dealing with anything like a normal family dynamic here.


You are right about one thing, we are not dealing with anything like a normal family dynamic.
Children of Dune pg 30 Gurney has agents on Arrakis who foil an assassination attempt aimed at Jessica's arrival. Alia is completely unaware of it until Gurney and Stilgar's men act. And before you suggest that this is after Winds, think on if there are any loyal Atredies men serving on Arrakis that would inform Jessica on their own volition, thinking it strange that Alia wanted it kept a secret. (even KJA does not suggest that Alia would try to hide Paul's death from Jessica)
Jessica is also well aware that Alia is a prime candidate for Abomination. Somehow I doubt she'd sit back and wait for Alia to tell her "Mom, I'm being possessed by Baron Harkonnen"

Even if Paul or Alia didn't want Jessica to know, she still would have heard about it. When Michael Jackson died, did you see it on TV or did someone tell you? Did you tell anyone or overhear anyone else telling people? News travels fast and Paul's death wasn't exactly a secret.

Jessica has many allies and friends who might have brought the news, even accidentally. The Bene Gesserit would be highly interested in Paul's offspring and would have contacted Jessica in an attempt to regain her allegiance and assistance in that matter. Why, in fact, that is most of the tension surrounding Jessica in Children of Dune.
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Re: ATTN: Redbugpest Winds v. Dune

Postby Mandy » 08 Aug 2009 17:20

Who is "Isabar"? :?
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Re: ATTN: Redbugpest Winds v. Dune

Postby Ampoliros » 08 Aug 2009 17:23

The High Priest of the Quizarate in Winds.
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Re: ATTN: Redbugpest Winds v. Dune

Postby Ampoliros » 10 Aug 2009 10:31

Bump. Whats the matter Conway? None of these questions should be that hard to answer.
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Re: ATTN: Redbugpest Winds v. Dune

Postby Ampoliros » 11 Aug 2009 10:16

Obviously Conway has abandoned the project. I guess i'll just have to post the rest of my questions expecting no response.

According to Winds:
Alia knows Paul was a Jongleur
Alia has Jessica's memories.
Paul told Leto and Jessica that the Jongleurs were assassins, which is apparently common knowledge.
Paul told Leto and Jessica that the Jongleurs were Face Dancers, which is also common knowledge.
The Jongleurs perform for the Governor of Balut.
An Assassination attempt occurs against the Governor, during the show, using the stage props, in which Paul saves the Governor, and Rhombur saves Paul, but gets killed.
Bronso blames Paul. Bronso also knows the Jongleurs are assassins. He still Blames Paul.
The Jongleurs assume they have been caught, and use jongleur magic to turn invisible and go into a defensive stance. The guards catch them. The Governor lets them go, because while the "people needed scapegoats", the Jongleurs were Paul's friends and took care of him.

Bronso uses the Wayku to distribute pamphlets.
The Wayku are stewards on the Guild ships.
Pamphlets show up "mysteriously" in people's luggage.
Mentat Duncan figures out whats going on on page 375

Paul knows the Jongleurs are face dancers.
Not just a few, but according to KJA ALL Face Dancers are in league with Bronso; because Paul killed Scytale, the Face Dancers decide to help Bronso, even die for him in his place.
Face Dancers across the universe, on cue, appear as Bronso. Several are rounded up, some are even executed (5-6 according to the text)
Again, 350 pages into the 450 page book, Mentat Duncan postulates that since the Face Dancers are Tleilaxu, maybe they should talk to them about finding Bronso. They Don't
Alia never suggests sending the Jihad Forces out to smash the Bene Tlielax for helping someone she considers the greatest danger to her Empire.
Mentat Duncan takes even longer to figure out that Gurney is actively trying to sabotage the search for Bronso. They fight, in which KJA just copies and pastes the Paul/Gurney fight from Dune. Not Kidding. (i.e. Gurney wins using the same maneuver he did against Paul.) Gurney refuses to suggest to Mentat Duncan that maybe he's following Paul's orders, which would have solved the whole thing.

Face Dancers appear at Bronso's execution and deliver his final words for him since he is gagged. They all escape into a crowd of bewildered viewers and Imperial Guards.
Rheinvar the Magnificent, the leader of the same troop of Jongleurs that Paul and Bronso were a part of appears and performs in front of Alia.
Alia rewards them heavily.
Oh, yeah BG cannot distinguish face dancers.

So,measuring in seconds, how long did it take your brain to say, No. Wrong. WTF?
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Re: ATTN: Redbugpest Winds v. Dune

Postby SandChigger » 11 Aug 2009 11:05

Ampoliros wrote:Oh, yeah BG cannot distinguish face dancers.

Need to play this one up a bit more. ;)

They so totally cannot tell Face Dancers that Bronso is able to infiltrate Wallach IX with a bunch and snatch his mama back from the BG.

(The psychic twisters don't hurt, of course. :roll: )

God this stuff is shit.
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Re: ATTN: Redbugpest Winds v. Dune

Postby Tleszer » 11 Aug 2009 11:07

:shock:

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Re: ATTN: Redbugpest Winds v. Dune

Postby Freakzilla » 11 Aug 2009 11:35

SandChigger wrote:
Ampoliros wrote:Oh, yeah BG cannot distinguish face dancers.

Need to play this one up a bit more. ;)

They so totally cannot tell Face Dancers that Bronso is able to infiltrate Wallach IX with a bunch and snatch his mama back from the BG.

(The psychic twisters don't hurt, of course. :roll: )

God this stuff is shit.


What excuse can they possibly give for this? Super-mega-ultra face dancers who's technology was lost until after THe Scattering?

:puke:
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Re: ATTN: Redbugpest Winds v. Dune

Postby SandRider » 11 Aug 2009 13:49

Amp wrote:So,measuring in seconds, how long did it take your brain to say, No. Wrong. WTF?



before I read it.

I'm a hater. :P
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Re: ATTN: Redbugpest Winds v. Dune

Postby TheDukester » 11 Aug 2009 13:50

Yes, that's how you know you've arrived as a Talifan: the ability to pre-hate something. It's like prescience. :wink:
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Re: ATTN: Redbugpest Winds v. Dune

Postby SandRider » 11 Aug 2009 14:17

prehater. like it.

I've been trying to come up with a justifiable one-star amazon review
for the new Silly-book that clearly states I haven't read it and will not.

tough going. all I can come up with so far is my old standby :

When I was a little boy, I put my pecker in a racoon-trap.
Hurt like hell, and I never did that again ...

and maybe the cliched definition of insanity:
doing the same thing over & over & expecting different results ...
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Re: ATTN: Redbugpest Winds v. Dune

Postby Ampoliros » 11 Aug 2009 19:01

Freakzilla wrote:
SandChigger wrote:
Ampoliros wrote:Oh, yeah BG cannot distinguish face dancers.

Need to play this one up a bit more. ;)

They so totally cannot tell Face Dancers that Bronso is able to infiltrate Wallach IX with a bunch and snatch his mama back from the BG.

(The psychic twisters don't hurt, of course. :roll: )

God this stuff is shit.


What excuse can they possibly give for this? Super-mega-ultra face dancers who's technology was lost until after THe Scattering?

:puke:

No, quite to the contrary, its the "If I can't see you, you can't see me" defense:

Winds of Dune, Pg 247-248: wrote: Striding to the front of the group, the Face Dancer replica of Rheinvar the Magnificent scrutinized the identical Bronsos. The Jongleur leader scratched his head and muttered to himself, unable to identify the real Ixian among the imitators. Fianally he said in a booming voice, "Even to a Face Dancer of my perceptive abilities, your voices, eyes, and mannerisms reveal nothing." All of the Bronsos smiled, in unison.
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Re: ATTN: Redbugpest Winds v. Dune

Postby Hunchback Jack » 11 Aug 2009 20:47

Is there anyone that they don't either face-dancer-mimic or turn into a ghola in the piece of crap?

What was that we were saying about Frank? He had ... er ... oh, that's right:

RESTRAINT!

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Re: ATTN: Redbugpest Winds v. Dune

Postby Ampoliros » 12 Aug 2009 12:05

Bumped, since we have Conway-sign on the forum today.

I eagerly await your response.
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Re: ATTN: Redbugpest Winds v. Dune

Postby TheDukester » 12 Aug 2009 12:18

It'll be coming on the 12th of Never, I'm sure ...
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