Paul in "Dune" vs. "Paul of Dune"

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Hunchback Jack
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Paul in "Dune" vs. "Paul of Dune"

Postby Hunchback Jack » 11 Aug 2009 01:39

For me, the biggest problems with the new Dune books are not the errors in details, but lack of understanding about the Dune universe that the errors imply.

Paul was born on Caladan, true. Paul's trip to Dune was his first time off-world, true. Paul did not have childhood friends his own age, true. But the significance of these details is not the details themselves, but in what the details signify about the character of Paul at the beginning of Dune, and about the society he lives in.

We know that FH based the society very loosely on a feudal one. Members of Houses were royalty. As the son of a Duke, Paul had a very sheltered childhood, protected and restricted to the safety of his family home from the moment of his birth. He did not spend his time playing with others his own age, because he was being groomed as the next Duke. He was taught statesmanship, hand-to-hand combat, and military strategy. He was trained as a Mentat and (secretly) in the ways of the Bene Gesserit. Futhermore, he interacted almost entirely with adults, which meant he had a more mature temperament and understanding of things, and a less playful nature.

The Paul Atreides at the beginning of "Dune" was very much the product of this feudal society, and of his own tightly regimented childhood and peculiar mix of training and study.

To have Paul go galavanting around the galaxy before he leaves for Arrakis does much more damage than just contradicting a couple of details in Dune. Firstly, it undermines the in-universe sense of Paul being the son of a feudal Duke. It takes away from that important sense of setting. Secondly, it fundamentally changes the character of Paul, and that is important to the events of Dune. As Dune opens, Paul is not a hero. He is not a seasoned adventurer, or an adventurer at all. He is a boy with a very mature outlook on life, a very unusual and potent mix of skills and knowledge, and a lack of real-world experience. Dune is the story of that boy becoming Muad 'Dib.

"Paul of Dune", and "Winds" after it, sacrificed these important aspects of setting and story just so that a couple of young adult adventures could be told. Shameful.

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Re: Paul in "Dune" vs. "Paul of Dune"

Postby Ampoliros » 11 Aug 2009 02:08

Yeah the lack of understand goes beyond ignoring important facts to where KJA feels the need to drop names or units into the story, even if they are completely misused : Tleilaxu masters running around when they shouldn't exist, or at least be very secretive. Winds even has an epigraph where a Tleilaxu Master wonders why people distrust them so much when all humans are worthy of mistrust.

Priests of Dur are a prime example, as are KJA's 'understanding' of the Guild and the Bene Gesserit. He portrays them all as villians, since hey, in the first 2 books they were the bad guys right? KJA completely misunderstands the BG. Completely. Sorry Kev, but you don't get shit right about them at all. They do not have 'psychic' powers, and not a damn one of them would use voice in public.

While some authors can use micro-plots to great advantage, KJA drops them in like aborted plot lines. The high priest is planning to assassinate Alia. We hear about and resolve this plot in about 2 paragraphs total.

The IQ thing. Seriously. Ghola-Kynes walks right up to Chani and Jessica and says hello. He's even trained as a fucking planetologist and they Do. Not. Recognize. Him. Jessica remarks how much he looks like Kynes. His daughter doesn't notice.

All of this Young Paul's nonsense is just KJA piss-poor attempt to say "Look, I made Paul into Muad'dib more than Frank ever did." KJA completely sidesteps the rigorous security that the Atreides and Muad'dib would have. In Paul of Dune someone plants a bomb on his fucking throne for gawds sake. Marie Fenring is treated like a cute toddler when REAL Fremen Feydakin would not hesitate to kill her in front of her parents for breaching protocol in front of the Emperor. If Marie had been raised in the same feudal state that Frank had written, she would have known 'playing' under the table would get her drug out from under it by guards and likely stabbed. As would Fenring and Margot.

The major point I considered while reading Winds was that if there was one theme KJA cannot grasp from Frank's writings it is the idea of Consequence. Winds has all the consequence of a saturday morning cartoon. People are repeatedly released from custody even when guilty of blatant murder, entire organizations are completely exempt from the actions of their subordinates, and most if any of the punishments actually delivered seem to be totally random (and often fail).

A feudal society is carefully balanced, like the tripod Frank described. There are reactions to events and fluidity.
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Re: Paul in "Dune" vs. "Paul of Dune"

Postby Frybread » 11 Aug 2009 10:19

I like how you guys mention the elements of feudal society that Frank used in "Dune." Obviously a student of history as well as philosophy and other topics, Frank made "Dune" feel like it was set in a realistic feudal society, particularly from Paul's perspective.

I think it's obvious that KJA is no student of history, as he can't even take the time to research the original six books to avoid inconsistencies.

P.S. I'd like to add that it's pathetic when Paul in "Dune" at 15 years of age was more throughtful and mature than Paul in "PoD" when he's supposed to be an adult and the Emperor.

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Re: Paul in "Dune" vs. "Paul of Dune"

Postby TheDukester » 11 Aug 2009 11:00

Hunchback Jack wrote:... the significance of these details is not the details themselves, but in what the details signify about the character of Paul at the beginning of Dune, and about the society he lives in.

This is not only true, but it serves as a fundamental example of the division between quality writing and that of KJA/Bobo.

Those two idiots would look at your examples and just not get it. They'd scratch their heads and ask, "What's the problem?" Since ideas such as character development and theme have never occurred to either one of them, they simply approached the "off-world Paul" problem the same way they've approached all aspects of their McDune "writing": they ask themselves the wouldn't-it-be-cool question.

Kevin: I think we should have Paul join an off-world circus when he's 12.

Brian: But, Kevin, it says right here, on like the first page of the whole series, that Paul had never left Caladan until the Arrakis trip.

Kevin: But I don't like that; it's too limiting.

Brian: And it's right here in my concordance, too. The one those mean people make fun of.

Kevin: But, Brian, wouldn't it be cool if we could write some YA crap about Young Indiana Paul? We could get like two books out of that, easy.

Brian: I don't know, Kevin. My dad said right here that ...

Kevin: Wouldn't it be cool if that meant two more annual checks for you? And I'll do all the writing, as usual.

Brian: Yes ... yes, that would be cool!
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Re: Paul in "Dune" vs. "Paul of Dune"

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 11 Aug 2009 11:08

Frybread wrote:I like how you guys mention the elements of feudal society that Frank used in "Dune." Obviously a student of history as well as philosophy and other topics, Frank made "Dune" feel like it was set in a realistic feudal society, particularly from Paul's perspective.

I think it's obvious that KJA is no student of history, as he can't even take the time to research the original six books to avoid inconsistencies.

P.S. I'd like to add that it's pathetic when Paul in "Dune" at 15 years of age was more throughtful and mature than Paul in "PoD" when he's supposed to be an adult and the Emperor.


Frank actually considering being a historian before settling on being an author.
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Re: Paul in "Dune" vs. "Paul of Dune"

Postby Tleszer » 11 Aug 2009 11:10

Collaboration at its best. :lol:
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Re: Paul in "Dune" vs. "Paul of Dune"

Postby Ampoliros » 11 Aug 2009 11:10

:twisted:


C'mon, they don't even get their own plots.


One reason I think I fell in love with Dune so much is I was working on my BA in History at the time.
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Re: Paul in "Dune" vs. "Paul of Dune"

Postby Frybread » 11 Aug 2009 11:23

A Thing of Eternity wrote:
Frybread wrote:I like how you guys mention the elements of feudal society that Frank used in "Dune." Obviously a student of history as well as philosophy and other topics, Frank made "Dune" feel like it was set in a realistic feudal society, particularly from Paul's perspective.

I think it's obvious that KJA is no student of history, as he can't even take the time to research the original six books to avoid inconsistencies.

P.S. I'd like to add that it's pathetic when Paul in "Dune" at 15 years of age was more throughtful and mature than Paul in "PoD" when he's supposed to be an adult and the Emperor.


Frank actually considering being a historian before settling on being an author.


No kidding? That makes sense, actually. His development of the background of "Dune" was obviously the work of someone who cared a great deal about detail and history. His intellect dwarfs that of KJA and his son.

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Re: Paul in "Dune" vs. "Paul of Dune"

Postby Apjak » 11 Aug 2009 12:25

Paul is all wrong in the new books. I've just read Windows for the Crown Prince written by the English tutor for the then Crown Prince Akihito of Japan. The child in court society portrayed is strikingly similar to the relations Paul has with the adults around him. I see Gurney and Duncan and Thufir and even Yueh as Paul's Chamberlains protecting and equipping Paul for his role as a leader. The Paul in Dune stepped up to the plate because he'd been trained his whole life to step up, not just because he was precocious. DUNE itself takes great effort to say this, particularly in the epigraphs.

Also, in relation to "BG voice in public", I'm unhappy with the way it has been portrayed on film, although there is really no better alternative I can think of. It was the BG's deep understanding of human psychology that allowed them to first register, then manipulate people. Using just the right words just the right way with just the right pitch so that the target is compelled without knowing it. Like hypnosis; like being "pussy whipped" in the extreme. Paul overcame it only because he saw it for what it was,because of his training. It is not a superpower that those watching might recognize, but extremely subtle carpet-bagging.
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Re: Paul in "Dune" vs. "Paul of Dune"

Postby SandRider » 11 Aug 2009 13:09

Wait. Wait a goddamn minute.

Back the fuck up.


Ghola-Kynes ?!?
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Re: Paul in "Dune" vs. "Paul of Dune"

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 11 Aug 2009 13:11

SandRider wrote:Wait. Wait a goddamn minute.

Back the fuck up.


Ghola-Kynes ?!?


You don't want to know. It was a symphony of poor writing.
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Re: Paul in "Dune" vs. "Paul of Dune"

Postby Tleszer » 11 Aug 2009 15:07

This parody of Paul may not belong here, but since it's about his badassery, I thought: "Why Not?"
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Re: Paul in "Dune" vs. "Paul of Dune"

Postby SandRider » 11 Aug 2009 15:34

man, that was funny.
or maybe I'm just a little tipsy in the afternoon.

either way, cool.

there should be a way to tweak that a little
& post it as a review on amazon ...
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Re: Paul in "Dune" vs. "Paul of Dune"

Postby Hunchback Jack » 11 Aug 2009 15:54

That was funny as hell. Practically every sentence made me laugh out loud. People here at work are looking at me funny.

Edited to add: Here's one for you, Chig.

HBJ
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Re: Paul in "Dune" vs. "Paul of Dune"

Postby SandChigger » 11 Aug 2009 17:46

FUCK YEAH!!! :D

Bear also proves something that a lot of people tend to forget - that humans are the most badass motherfucking animals on the planet. A lot of humans tend to "get soft" by living up the cushy city life, but it's nice to see guys like Bear getting out there and showing the fucking animal kingdom that we're still the toughest bastards around. ... Darwin would be proud.

Basically, Bear Grylls is totally fucking sweet to the max and Man Vs. Wild is one of those shows that puts hair on your chest every time you watch it. He's the ultimate survivalist, a tough-as-nails adventurer, and the sort of guy who can walk up to Mother Nature herself and give her a right proper bitch-slap across the face.

YEA!!!

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If I were really into all this male bonding crap, I'd wanna be buds with Bear. :lol:

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Re: Paul in "Dune" vs. "Paul of Dune"

Postby Nekhrun » 11 Aug 2009 18:11

You should check out the Man vs. Wild episode with Will Ferrell. I tried to live like Bear in the north woods. I left two days later very hungry.
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Re: Paul in "Dune" vs. "Paul of Dune"

Postby SandChigger » 11 Aug 2009 18:26

Oh right, hungry-shmungry. YOU just couldn't hack the Mountain Dew withdrawal. :roll:

:P

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Re: Paul in "Dune" vs. "Paul of Dune"

Postby Nekhrun » 11 Aug 2009 18:32

SandChigger wrote:Oh right, hungry-shmungry. YOU just couldn't hack the Mountain Dew withdrawal. :roll:

:P

You got that right. I've been trying to limit myself to two cans a day and I feel pissed off at the world.
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Re: Paul in "Dune" vs. "Paul of Dune"

Postby Ampoliros » 11 Aug 2009 18:40

SandRider wrote:Wait. Wait a goddamn minute.

Back the fuck up.


Ghola-Kynes ?!?


To be fair, they never tell you it really is Ghola-Kynes. But putting 1+1+1 together: KJA writing + Kynes lookalike planetologist + ghola-army of the republ..er Shaddam's Republican Gua...er Fake Dead Sardaukar army = KJA flaunts ghola-Kynes in front of us.
When I'm done with my review I'll go into this in more detail. The basic jist is that where one paragraph in Paul of Dune was directed at the OH, at least half of Winds is ripped from the headlines of the OH war. Ghola-Kynes is flagrant bait to anger us. It works, Kynes is one of my favorite characters in Dune. His water has mingled with our water, He will be avenged.
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Re: Paul in "Dune" vs. "Paul of Dune"

Postby SandChigger » 11 Aug 2009 21:25

Sorry, I didn't take him as being a ghola.

Some hack(s) in the WoD ARC wrote:The two men in charge of the dry canyon worksite were Lars Siewesca from the stark planet of Culat, and a stocky man who introduced himself as Qhomba from Grand Hain. Neither of those worlds was a pleasant place, Jessica knew.

Siewesca's appearance unsettled Jessica, for the man was tall and lean, with sandy blond hair and a neatly trimmed beard. Was he intentionally mimicking the late, murdered Dr. Liet-Kynes? Though the visitors included Shaddam IV, his daughter Princess Irulan, and Lady Jessica, the two planetologists were most impressed to meet Chani.

Remember when Jessica and Gurney are reviewing some post-battle tape and see the Tleilaxu gathering corpses? And towards the end, when we're shown Shaddam accepting a consignment of ghola soldiers and it's stressed that some of them show healed wounds? I think that's KJA telling us he KNOWS that gholas at this time are reanimated corpses. For Siewesca to be Liet-Kynes, someone would have had to have dug up and retrieved his body. From the urgency shown by the Saudarkar commander and by Scytale & Bijaz regarding the shipping off of Duncan's and Chani's bodies in Messiah, time was obviously a factor. Wouldn't Liet's body have been too damaged and decomposed to create a ghola? And regardless, wouldn't both Chani and Jessica have recognized him, as a reanimated corpse?

I'm not convinced on this one yet. :)
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Re: Paul in "Dune" vs. "Paul of Dune"

Postby Ampoliros » 12 Aug 2009 01:28

Since when has that stopped them? It's exactly the kind of thing they would do. It's either a ghola of Kynes or a face-dancer mimicking him. There is no reason for KJA to bring it up if it wasn't a carrot being dangled in front of his audience.
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Re: Paul in "Dune" vs. "Paul of Dune"

Postby SandChigger » 12 Aug 2009 01:42

Don't get me wrong, I hope you're right. Especially since we can all see just how wrong it would be. :D

I was caught more by the home worlds of the two planetologists: Culat & Grand Hain.

References reminiscent of an old-fashioned(?) type of woman's pants + a famous science-fiction planet ... is this not a jab at "critical darling" Ursula K. Le Guin? ;)
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