Paul and Lord Valentin

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lotek
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Paul and Lord Valentin

Postby lotek » 13 Aug 2009 01:18

I read some of the Majipoor series a while ago, and when I read the synopsis for PoD "Paul runs away with space gypsies... period" I couldn't help noticing the similarities with Silverberg's otherwise excellent novels.(*HE won Hugo's he did :))
Even down to the Piurivar race of shapeshifters who resembled Face Dancers in many ways, but also the mix between science and mystical forces.

(I did a search on the forum for precedent posts but found none, so if someone has already pointed out that issue please direct me to the concerned thread thanks!)

Those similarities were troubling but ran deeper than I thought, but things hitting you in the face apparently can be ignored, and I had to get the final piece of the puzzle from someone else ;)
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In fact it's all about chronology which is why I overlooked it:
1965 Dune
1980 Lord Valentine's Castle

Lord Valentine's Castle owes as much to the modern tradition of fantasy as to predecessors in science fiction: the work of J. R. R. Tolkien and his imitators is clearly an influence. Unlike Tolkien, however, Silverberg shows little indebtedness to medieval heroic saga or to Norse mythology. Moreover, the planet Majipoor with its three continents, diverse cultures, and history is supposed to exist in a science fiction continuum. It has been colonized by humans and exists several thousand years in the future, although the various indigenous beings of the planet are Silverberg's own invention — including Skandars, sea dragons, and shape shifters. For this thoughtful and detailed construction of an imaginary planet, the most influential model is probably Frank Herbert's Dune (1965) and its sequels, although earlier writers, including even the much maligned Edgar Rice Burroughs,.....

http://www.bookrags.com/shortguide-lord ... itles.html

WHAT??
SEA DRAGONS in a universe inspired by Dune
and then seaWORMS appear in the crappy follow ups now what a coincidence...

I'm sure to find other cases of blatant plagiarism should I put my hands back on my copy of Lord Valentine.

Mind boggling hacking: steal some (good) stuff inspired by the stories you're already stealing and turn it into crap :whistle:
Spice is the worm's gonads.

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lotek
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Re: Paul and Lord Valentin

Postby lotek » 13 Aug 2009 09:58

oh and btw Valentine runs away with a circus/gypsy company :mrgreen:
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A Thing of Eternity
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Re: Paul and Lord Valentin

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 13 Aug 2009 11:20

You want plagerism by KJA? Take a look at some summaries of what his Seven Suns series is all about, I remember deconstructing it to the point where every single detail of it was jacked from a major SF novel, with notible thefts from Asimov (can't remember the book) and Dan Simmons Hyperion.
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Re: Paul and Lord Valentin

Postby TheDukester » 13 Aug 2009 11:24

I guess I can see some KJA-theft from Valentine, but I'll admit it never really jumped out at me until it was brought up here.

As usual, though, KJA can steal some specifics (i.e., a sea serpent attack), but his overwhelming lack of talent means he'll always have to leave behind the most important stuff: the ability to create interesting and fully realized worlds and characters.
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Re: Paul and Lord Valentin

Postby SandChigger » 13 Aug 2009 11:50

I forget, were there wooly mammoths on Majipoor? ;)

(Kevvy's got wooly mammoths in Terrible Incontinence. LOVES them wooly mammoths! :dance: )
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lotek
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Re: Paul and Lord Valentin

Postby lotek » 13 Aug 2009 15:50

well the most crazy thing is that the real Dune inspired Silverberg at least in part to create Majipoor, so finding those coincidences in what is supposed to be the continuation of Frank's work is just kind of odd, like mirrors facing each other...
... one of them a distorting mirror

and now back to my padded cell thank you for listening :arrow:
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Re: Paul and Lord Valentin

Postby Hunchback Jack » 13 Aug 2009 16:03

Well, to be fair, Simmons lifted some of the elements for Hyperion from elsewhere as well. But he actually did something worthwhile with them.

(No criticism of Simmons, incidentally. The Hyperion Cantos may drag a bit in places, but the good bits are *really* good. I *think* the first book won a Hugo; it deserved it).

HBJ
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Re: Paul and Lord Valentin

Postby TheDukester » 13 Aug 2009 16:22

Hyperion was your 1990 winner for Best Novel.
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Re: Paul and Lord Valentin

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 13 Aug 2009 16:22

Hunchback Jack wrote:Well, to be fair, Simmons lifted some of the elements for Hyperion from elsewhere as well. But he actually did something worthwhile with them.

(No criticism of Simmons, incidentally. The Hyperion Cantos may drag a bit in places, but the good bits are *really* good. I *think* the first book won a Hugo; it deserved it).

HBJ

Did he lift the treeships? That's what I'm talking about KJA jacking from him.
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Re: Paul and Lord Valentin

Postby Hunchback Jack » 13 Aug 2009 16:40

Er, :oops: can't remember. I remember a post to rec.arts.sf.written a long time back that basically listed elements of the first two books that came from other series. The post was along the lines of "Simmons stole all his cool ideas", but the consensus response was "whole is greater than the sum of its parts".

HBJ
"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
- Carl Sagan

I'm still very proud of The Quarry but … let's face it; in the end the real best way to sign off would have been with a great big rollicking Culture novel.
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Re: Paul and Lord Valentin

Postby GamePlayer » 13 Aug 2009 17:32

Ah yes, the "he/she stole everything" argument. I paraphrase Men In Black, if I may... :)

"There's always a fan crying that a great filmmaker, or a famous writer, or a talented musician plagiarized everything on this miserable little planet and the only way these blissfully ignorant geeks can happily enjoy popular culture without realizing it's all derivative is because they do...not...know about it."

:D
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Re: Paul and Lord Valentin

Postby lotek » 13 Aug 2009 18:02

well it's probably a conspiracy then :mrgreen:

(even if in the case of a man who steals an other man's lifework from his probably dumb son to turn it into fast bucks... coincidence is not the first answer that comes to mind, as it normally would with people with talent like Silverberg(who if he was inspired by Dune at least didn't turn Majipoor into the grostesque farce of the prequels)
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Re: Paul and Lord Valentin

Postby GamePlayer » 13 Aug 2009 18:43

As much as people would like to tell you critique of the creative arts and entertainment can be distilled down to a single factor ubiquitously called "originality", the truth is most of us care very little for originality. No one blames Ridley Scott for his lack of originality with Gladiator. No one blames James Cameron for his lack of originality with Aliens. No one blames Quentin Tarantino for his lack of originality with...everything (but they should). It's creativity and individuality that we all covet when we judge a piece of art or entertainment. I want to see something I've never seen before, doesn't matter if I'm familiar with the original concept or not.

Simple and easy example: I love Batman. I thoroughly enjoyed Tim Burton's Batman (1989) and have watched and enjoyed it many a time since. Making another Batman movie won't satisfy me, unless it's something I've never seen before. Batman Begins made by Christopher Nolan was such a great film because it showed me a Batman I've never seen before. Two films, same concept, but both done creatively with a strong individual vision.

The point is to cast blame for worthless output upon those that lack the talent, individuality and daring to make a familiar concept their own instead of simply regurgitating the talent, individuality and daring of others. Kevin J Anderson is one such hack, making nothing his own and never infusing anything he makes with any talent, individuality or creativity.
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Re: Paul and Lord Valentin

Postby SandChigger » 13 Aug 2009 20:02

Let's see ... In his Saggy Buns Saga, KJA lifts...

from Simmons: the basic three-way division of humanity into the space-faring tree-huggers and their treeships; the Earth-centric Hansa League (=the Hegemony), and the nomadic barbarian Outsers/Rousters/Roamers/whateverTF. The Jovian planet with a breathable atmosphere.

from Clarke: turning a Jovian planet into a sun.

I'm sure there's plenty more, but I haven't read the books. :)
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Re: Paul and Lord Valentin

Postby Hunchback Jack » 13 Aug 2009 21:57

Amazon had the first six or seven chapters of the first book as a free Kindle download. I read the first three or four on my phone.

Man, it was just page after page of tell tell tell exposition. Talking about what had happened to the POV character in the past, what would happen in the future, forshadowing of events if things went one way or another, listing all the characters skills and shortcomings.

There were a few ideas in there that captured my interest, but the prose was just so dull. Come on, Kev, give me something to do. Let me figure out *something* for myself.

HBJ
"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
- Carl Sagan

I'm still very proud of The Quarry but … let's face it; in the end the real best way to sign off would have been with a great big rollicking Culture novel.
- Iain Banks

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Re: Paul and Lord Valentin

Postby TheDukester » 13 Aug 2009 22:43

Hunchback Jack wrote:... listing all the characters skills and shortcomings.

I once read a great criticism somewhere of KJA's definition of "character development": he describes characters in terms of their skills, then gives them tasks to perform.

And that's it.
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Re: Paul and Lord Valentin

Postby Omphalos » 14 Aug 2009 02:54

SandChigger wrote:from Clarke: turning a Jovian planet into a sun.


Clarke's story was based on an article in Nature, IIRC, but interestingly enough I was reading a reference book of mine a few months ago and someone, like, in the 1910's or something did that too. Ill have to find out who and what it was.

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Re: Paul and Lord Valentin

Postby Hunchback Jack » 21 Aug 2009 20:13

Yeah, I'd be interested to hear who that was. Clarke was probably not the first, but I'd be surprised to hear of that idea in fiction much earlier.

Look here if you want to know more.

(Don't worry, it's not some crazy video about reptile aliens masquerading as humans, or whatever)

HBJ
"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
- Carl Sagan

I'm still very proud of The Quarry but … let's face it; in the end the real best way to sign off would have been with a great big rollicking Culture novel.
- Iain Banks

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Re: Paul and Lord Valentin

Postby Drunken Idaho » 26 Aug 2009 13:31

A Thing of Eternity wrote:You want plagerism by KJA? Take a look at some summaries of what his Seven Suns series is all about, I remember deconstructing it to the point where every single detail of it was jacked from a major SF novel, with notible thefts from Asimov (can't remember the book) and Dan Simmons Hyperion.


How about this? A summary of KJA's Blindfold:

Atlas is a struggling colony on an untamable world, a fragile society held together by the Truthsayers. Parentless, trained from birth as the sole users of Veritas, a telepathy virus that lets them read the souls of the guilty, Truthsayers are Justice, Infallible, and Beyond appeal.

Falsely accused of murder, Troy Boren trusts the young Truthsayer Kalliana . . . until, impossibly, she convicts him. Still shaken from a previous reading, Kalliana doesn't realize her power is fading. But soon the evidence becomes impossible to ignore. The Truthsayers' Veritas has been diluted and someone in the colony is selling smuggled telepathy. Justice isn't blind -- it's been blinded.

From an immortal's orbital prison to the buried secrets of a regal fortress, Kalliana and Troy seek the conspiracy that threatens to destroy their world from within. For without truth justice, Atlas will certainly fall . . .


Truthsayers? A society that depends on a magical drug?
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Re: Paul and Lord Valentin

Postby Freakzilla » 26 Aug 2009 13:36

A Thing of Eternity wrote:You want plagerism by KJA? Take a look at some summaries of what his Seven Suns series is all about, I remember deconstructing it to the point where every single detail of it was jacked from a major SF novel, with notible thefts from Asimov (can't remember the book) and Dan Simmons Hyperion.


Nightfall
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Re: Paul and Lord Valentin

Postby Drunken Idaho » 26 Aug 2009 13:40

Freakzilla wrote:
A Thing of Eternity wrote:You want plagerism by KJA? Take a look at some summaries of what his Seven Suns series is all about, I remember deconstructing it to the point where every single detail of it was jacked from a major SF novel, with notible thefts from Asimov (can't remember the book) and Dan Simmons Hyperion.


Nightfall


NiiiihIIiiiiightFAAAaaaahaaallll
Quietly it crept in and changed us all...
:character-beavisbutthead:
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Re: Paul and Lord Valentin

Postby lotek » 26 Aug 2009 13:41

wasn't nightfall co written with?
I have it but don't remember... here goes google again
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Re: Paul and Lord Valentin

Postby TheDukester » 26 Aug 2009 13:44

Drunken Idaho wrote:A summary of KJA's Blindfold ...

And check this out:

http://www.amazon.com/Blindfold-Kevin-J ... 26&sr=1-11

The first two "reviews" for this POS are from Byron Merritt. So, in addition to being a complete sell-out and a pussy, Byron is also a shill. That's quite a trifecta.

These HLP people have no shame at all. None.
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Re: Paul and Lord Valentin

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 26 Aug 2009 13:45

Drunken Idaho wrote:How about this? A summary of KJA's Blindfold:

Atlas is a struggling colony on an untamable world, a fragile society held together by the Truthsayers. Parentless, trained from birth as the sole users of Veritas, a telepathy virus that lets them read the souls of the guilty, Truthsayers are Justice, Infallible, and Beyond appeal.

Falsely accused of murder, Troy Boren trusts the young Truthsayer Kalliana . . . until, impossibly, she convicts him. Still shaken from a previous reading, Kalliana doesn't realize her power is fading. But soon the evidence becomes impossible to ignore. The Truthsayers' Veritas has been diluted and someone in the colony is selling smuggled telepathy. Justice isn't blind -- it's been blinded.

From an immortal's orbital prison to the buried secrets of a regal fortress, Kalliana and Troy seek the conspiracy that threatens to destroy their world from within. For without truth justice, Atlas will certainly fall . . .


Truthsayers? A society that depends on a magical drug?


Yikes.
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Re: Paul and Lord Valentin

Postby TheDukester » 26 Aug 2009 13:49

lotek wrote:wasn't nightfall co written?

This isn't exactly accurate. It's originally a very famous short story written by Asimov — arguably his best-known shorter work — that was later (much later) substantially re-written into novel length with collaboration from Robert Silverberg.

(Who should be writing nuDune novels, although that's a different subject ...)
"Anything I write will be remembered and listed in bibliographies on Dune for several hundred years ..." — some delusional halfwit troll.