Everybody Hates Keith

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SandChigger
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Re: Everybody Hates Keith

Postby SandChigger » 29 Sep 2010 02:40

Hey, not everybody hates Keith:

Check out this Thorne guy on page 5 of this Amazon discussion thread.

Anyone want to place bets on whether Geoffrey is a hack as well? Anybody heard of him? Evidently he's written a Star Trek novel or two or four (or are they short stories in anthologies?) and screenplays for Law & Order.

???

But, unless you can demonstrate a superior ability in something as subjective as Art, you don't get to call anyone a hack.

Well. You do, because it's a free country, but it just shows what a tiny, mean-spirited soul you have. Why would you want the whole world to see that? Why would you want anyone to?

Guess that's just the kind of guy I am. :lol:
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Re: Everybody Hates Keith

Postby TheDukester » 29 Sep 2010 03:08

Wow, what a douchenozzle.

I just gave him both barrels. Man, I miss the classic Amazon fights of yore! 8)
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Re: Everybody Hates Keith

Postby Lundse » 29 Sep 2010 05:21

My reply, saving it from overzealous editors at Amazon:

Time to chime in, I guess (on the whole Geoffrey/Ronald/KJA/writing-thingy).

First off, of course tastes differ, yada, yada. Secondly, someone could conceivably "write" great books by dictating them, and they might even be able to do so in a very short time (Pratchett, while using a keyboard, writes more and more each year and they get better and better). I do not put much stock in the dictahiking method personally, but while I do consider it an indication that someone may not be entirely giving it his all, it does not, in itself, make anyone talentless or a hack. Neither does writing in someone elses universe - being a writer for hire does, again, indicate somewhat that you are not sticking your neck out for a personal creative vision, but is rather accepting money to add to someone else's ideas.
These are the things the debate has focused on, and I agree with Geoffrey that they do not, in themselves, a hack or a bad human being make.

But you really should take the advice to heart, which has popped up time and again, to aquaint yourself with the particular case that is KJA.


The reason Dune fans are pissed at KJA is threefold: He is lying about, and badmouthing us. He is lying about, and badmouthing Frank Herbert. And he is lying about, and taking a bit metaphorical shit on, Dune and it's legacy.

You can read for yourself KJA's comments about the fans who dislike his books. You can ready his "attempts" to give answers to the huge discrepancies he has introduced (which he claim does not exist, strawmans or ignores). That is the personal side, but just to be absolutely clear - this is not a writer who is receiving bile from a fanbase only because they did not like what he wrote; he has used his superior PR to slander us, and misrepresent our case.

The second part is lying about Frank Herbert. KJA and his co-author (?) claims to have found certain notes, and claims that various parts of his writing is based on those. Not only are the stories (!) of the notes contradictory, but KJA is deliberately confusing canonicity by contradicting Frank Herbert and claiming Herbert intended it this way all along.

Which leads us to the third part. When I heard Frank's son was collaborating on a continuation I was cautiously interested. Dune and it's sequels are complex, and a lot of stuff can go wrong in trying to follow something as brilliant and multi-levelled. I ordered the two first chapters of the first prequel. First sentence started: "The Baron Harkonnen, lean and muscular..."
In Dune, the Baron is a hedonist, fat and disgusting. In fact, he revels in disgusting people. He instills fear by being explicit about what he does with small slave boys. He has, Frank's words, "let himself go fat". Deliberately. His grossness and overconsumption is likened to an animal outlook and personality, which is a major theme and contrasted with other factions such as the Atreides and Bene Gesserit. It also ties into the theme of technology; the Baron has to use anit-gravity devices to be able to move around! He is the antithesis of self-reliance and being in balance (ha, didn't see that pun before :-) ) with yourself and your environment - obviously contrasted the fremen and the philosophy of the Bene Gesserit.

I am not writing all this to say: the baron was fat in Dune, how dare you make him slim in the prequel. The interesting thing is this: In KJA's Dune universe, the Baron is naturally lean with no sign of going fat, until a Bene Gesserit gives him a disease with her vagina, as revenge for a rape! The Bene Gesserit who, by the way, are characterizing in Dune as being above vengeance, and have never used a biological weapon.
Gone is the man who embraced his animal side. Gone is the total lack of selfcontrol. Gone is the hedonist. Gone is the uncaring psychopath who uses peoples disgust as simple another tool of power. Gone is the Baron Frank wrote about.
And KJA claims that his version is now canon, that whatever me, any other fan, or Frank Herbert thought about the Baron, we can just forget about - because here's the truth; it was just a vagina-vengeance-virus.


This is one example. One. KJA does this over and over again; uncaringly glossing over and contradicting Frank's ideas and themes - for shock value.
The Fremen about to go on their holy crusade, train to submerge in the water which is holy to them. They are on a holy quest, a people whose laws, ethics and religion have become one - but these fanatics (who are willing to throw their babies at enemy soldiers for distraction) only have the courage to jump in when offered a gold coin at the bottom. Wow!
The grand plan to save humanity, by dispersing it so no one threat could ever consume it, is shown to be a mistake by KJA - we need everyone together to fight the evil robot empire which Frank never told you about. You might as well make a sequel to The Lord of the Rings where Gandalf secretly saved the ring, so they could use it to fight the evil robot empire Tolkien never told you about.
Frank's major point with Dune (he said so directly in interviews) was the danger of the hero myth. Guess how the Dune saga is ended, KJA-style? Yup, a semi-goddess (which Frank never told us about, funny about that, hu?) whisks all the bad guys away. Wow, guess heroes are nifty to have around anyway!


I could go on, and have, elsewhere, at length. As I said, you should really read Dune and then compare it to KJA's additions. He is not a hack because of the way he writes - he is a hack because he is talentless, goes for shock value and has zero respect for the universe he writes in, it's themes, fans or original author.

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Re: Everybody Hates Keith

Postby inhuien » 29 Sep 2010 07:10

Lundse, unfortunately dear old Mr. Pratchett is no longer using a keyboard due to the advancement of his medical condition, just FYI before someone takes exception to it on Amazon.
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Re: Everybody Hates Keith

Postby Lundse » 29 Sep 2010 07:18

inhuien wrote:Lundse, unfortunately dear old Mr. Pratchett is no longer using a keyboard due to the advancement of his medical condition, just FYI before someone takes exception to it on Amazon.


I refuse to accept the reality of Mr. Pratchetts medical condition!

Thanks for the heads up, though.

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Re: Everybody Hates Keith

Postby inhuien » 29 Sep 2010 07:26

Denial's my strategy regarding it as well, just finished Unseen Academicals which was fantastic (awk, awk!!) with Nation awaiting it's turn. Long Live the Master.
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Re: Everybody Hates Keith

Postby lotek » 29 Sep 2010 07:28

very good reply Lundse, a case book one I should say!
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Re: Everybody Hates Keith

Postby SandRider » 29 Sep 2010 07:50

Hi Jeff!
................ I exist only to amuse myself ................
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I personally feel that this message board, Jacurutu, is full of hateful folks who don't know
how to fully interact with people.
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Re: Everybody Hates Keith

Postby lotek » 29 Sep 2010 09:29

looking for some hating photoshop?
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Re: Everybody Hates Keith

Postby Apjak » 29 Sep 2010 09:55

I don't think the author should make the reader do that much work - Kevin J. Anderson
We think we've updated 'Dune' for a modern readership without dumbing it down.- Brian Herbert
There’s an unwritten compact between you and the reader. If someone enters a bookstore and sets down hard earned money(energy) for your book, you owe that person some entertainment and as much more as you can give. - Frank Herbert

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Re: Everybody Hates Keith

Postby merkin muffley » 29 Sep 2010 10:21

Sandrider wrote:congratulations !
you're a Hack ...
"Space Grunts:Full Throttle Space Tales"? really?


:lol: :clap:
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Re: Everybody Hates Keith

Postby TheDukester » 29 Sep 2010 10:56

Apjak wrote:Geoffry Thorne's wiki

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geoffrey_Thorne

Wow, that must be right on the border of the Wiki rules for "notable personalities."

I mean, seriously: a writer of a few media tie-in novels? I've seen similar entries deleted before from the Wiki.
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Re: Everybody Hates Keith

Postby merkin muffley » 29 Sep 2010 11:36

The people that defend Keith always fit a very specific profile.
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Re: Everybody Hates Keith

Postby TheDukester » 29 Sep 2010 11:42

This guy is a complete tool.

One more time, for the Google bots: Geoffrey Thorne is a complete tool.

There we go.
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Re: Everybody Hates Keith

Postby SandChigger » 29 Sep 2010 11:44

Whoa... I had NO idea who I was dealing with! :shock:

:laughing:

That Wiki page has been there since 2006. Amazing. :roll:


(Is no one else disturbed by the way Lundse invariably brings a bazooka to a knife fight? :? )

Edit:

Not a big Twitter presence yet; must not have gotten the memo from TheKJA about using Twitter for PR:

http://twitter.com/GeoffThorne
Last edited by SandChigger on 29 Sep 2010 11:57, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Everybody Hates Keith

Postby lotek » 29 Sep 2010 11:47

SandChigger wrote:(Is no one else disturbed by the way Lundse invariably brings a bazooka to a knife fight? :? )


I kinda like it, overkill is the way to go!
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Re: Everybody Hates Keith

Postby TheDukester » 29 Sep 2010 11:54

No, no, Lundse is vital to our mission. He manages to get his points across with about one-twentieth of the emotion, so he can be very effective.

We all have our roles, I figure. And our strengths. I figure mine is to fire away with both barrels. Crude, yes, but sometimes successful. And always great fun. :lol:
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Re: Everybody Hates Keith

Postby Apjak » 29 Sep 2010 12:55

merkin muffley wrote:The people that defend Keith always fit a very specific profile.


Don't you mean edit their own wiki profile?
I don't think the author should make the reader do that much work - Kevin J. Anderson
We think we've updated 'Dune' for a modern readership without dumbing it down.- Brian Herbert
There’s an unwritten compact between you and the reader. If someone enters a bookstore and sets down hard earned money(energy) for your book, you owe that person some entertainment and as much more as you can give. - Frank Herbert

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Re: Everybody Hates Keith

Postby merkin muffley » 29 Sep 2010 13:39

Apjak wrote:
merkin muffley wrote:The people that defend Keith always fit a very specific profile.


Don't you mean edit their own wiki profile?


Exactamundo. :wink:
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Re: Everybody Hates Keith

Postby SandChigger » 29 Sep 2010 17:08

And so MODEST, too!

Did you catch that "I could blow any fanfic writer out of the water" bit? :lol:

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Re: Everybody Hates Keith

Postby lotek » 29 Sep 2010 17:35

SandChigger wrote:And so MODEST, too!

Did you catch that "I could blow any fanfic writer out of the water" bit? :lol:


This a job for rude men, men not afraid to do a joke on blowing the snorkel out of the water of a notorious hack for example!
God I hate those brown nosed, one brain celled fart scented suck ups!


I feel so much better now, I might just kill a few brain cells(since I can afford it, having more than one)
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Re: Everybody Hates Keith

Postby Lundse » 29 Sep 2010 20:05

TheDukester wrote:No, no, Lundse is vital to our mission.


Haha. Thanks. I am faceslapping myself and remembering this picture, every other keytap:

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Re: Everybody Hates Keith

Postby SandChigger » 30 Sep 2010 12:19

I noticed Lundse & Dukester were still fighting the good fight today, but when I read Thorne saying he liked the sound of "Talifans", I put him on ignore and closed the window.

Gots too many other idiots to attend to to waste any more time on this one! (Like the "Choctaw elder" who told me to go shoot my "ignorant self" in a Marilyn thread! :lol: ) Here, by way of parting shot, is the opening of Thorne's Sword of Damocles Star Trek novel:

Chapter One

Occultus Ora, Stardate 58358.1


The Starship Titan rolled slowly in the dark, dancing between the invisible jetsam, the ethereal flotsam, like some graceful leviathan swimming a terrestrial sea. All around it the other occupants of this region, the inspiration for the ship's lingering ballet, also pitched and spun in apparent counterpoint to the vessel's motion.

Titan's astronomers had dubbed the region Occultus Ora for some reason known only to them. The physicists called the things residing here exotic matter plasmids but, lately, those who'd been tasked with ferreting out their secrets had taken to referring to the strange objects simply as darklings.

The image came from a myth Dr. Celenthe had heard on its homeworld of Syrath, something about the Catalysts of creation hiding in the dark.

Wow... isn't that good? :?

More here for anyone interested.

(And by the way, that "Occultus Ora" mean anything to anyone? If ora is "boundary, coast, country, region", it's a feminine noun, so the proper form of "hidden, secret" would be occulta. May not be Thorne's error, but I prefer to think it is. :) )

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Re: Everybody Hates Keith

Postby SadisticCynic » 30 Sep 2010 12:31

Occult = secret/hidden knowledge, no?

A hidden ( :? ) region of space then?

I can't help but feel that intro reeks of Kevin 'too many adjectives/adverbs' Anderson. :roll:
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Re: Everybody Hates Keith

Postby SandChigger » 30 Sep 2010 12:54

I was thinking "hidden boundary" or "secret region"; was even reminded that "the future" is "the unknown country" in Klingon, or some such shit. :lol:

I was more bothered by the form of the Dumb Latin than the meaning, though. :D