Winds of Controversy

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Re: Winds of Controversy

Postby Freakzilla » 24 Sep 2009 14:50

redbugpest wrote:It is the extremist efforts of some of the like minded folks that actually hurt your credibility, and your ability to persuade others that your point of view is more relevant. That is what gets my ire up.

I’m happy to have a discussion on it, I’m happy to revise my point of view in light of new information that I feel is credible and supported by facts.

But, I may never fully agree with you, and do not deserve to be treated in a demeaning or insulting manor when I express my opinion on third party sites (aka Amazon). Here, well, this is your house, so I have to take what is given, just as I have that right at my armies of Chaos site. My house, my rules.

We may not agree, but we need to move the argument back to a position of mutual respect, and in doing so, others who may be on the fence will pick a side based on the merits of the arguments that each side makes.

I saw in a post that Freak would love to have more of us “preeks” here for more debate, but so long as the talk is all in the language of hate from both sides, people will probably just keep going else ware.

Am I making sense to you?


I'd like to say that people here will treat you with mutual respect but I can't promise that.

First, you must understand our hate. Most of us did not read KJA's Dune books just so we'd have something to hate. We were lied to. We were told we must read the six prequels in order for the sequels to make sense. Then, when the sequels were written, the only thing that wouldn't have made sense without them is the characters they made up in the prequels! (Omnius and Erasmus).

NOW, it has become personal, you see. We were lied to and made to read these crappy books for no reason.

All I can promise is that at least I will try to discuss these things civily.
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Re: Winds of Controversy

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 24 Sep 2009 14:53

I feel the same way, and have stopped reading their books. I read Legends, nearly cried, but I did it anyways, then I read Hunters (THEN I found these forums) then I read Sandworms, which was the final nail in the coffin for me. I was lied to big time.
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Re: Winds of Controversy

Postby redbugpest » 24 Sep 2009 14:58

Freakzilla wrote:
redbugpest wrote:It is the extremist efforts of some of the like minded folks that actually hurt your credibility, and your ability to persuade others that your point of view is more relevant. That is what gets my ire up.

I’m happy to have a discussion on it, I’m happy to revise my point of view in light of new information that I feel is credible and supported by facts.

But, I may never fully agree with you, and do not deserve to be treated in a demeaning or insulting manor when I express my opinion on third party sites (aka Amazon). Here, well, this is your house, so I have to take what is given, just as I have that right at my armies of Chaos site. My house, my rules.

We may not agree, but we need to move the argument back to a position of mutual respect, and in doing so, others who may be on the fence will pick a side based on the merits of the arguments that each side makes.

I saw in a post that Freak would love to have more of us “preeks” here for more debate, but so long as the talk is all in the language of hate from both sides, people will probably just keep going else ware.

Am I making sense to you?





I'd like to say that people here will treat you with mutual respect but I can't promise that.

First, you must understand our hate. Most of us did not read KJA's Dune books just so we'd have something to hate. We were lied to. We were told we must read the six prequels in order for the sequels to make sense. Then, when the sequels were written, the only thing that wouldn't have made sense without them is the characters they made up in the prequels! (Omnius and Erasmus).

NOW, it has become personal, you see. We were lied to and made to read these crappy books for no reason.

All I can promise is that at least I will try to discuss these things civily.


That is all I ask. As for being lied to - well, I am not sure, and realisticly, you chose to read them, though I will grant that you may not have realized what you were going to read before hand based on the way it was presented.
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Re: Winds of Controversy

Postby KJA Special Forces » 24 Sep 2009 14:59

redbugpest wrote:
Leto wrote:
A Thing of Eternity wrote:Then, in "dune 7" there are a ton of subplots, but none of them contribute IN ANY WAY to the final resolution of the book, where Norma shows up and does what humanity simply could not accomplish on it's own.


That's exactly the same in Legends of Dune when the Titan's starship appears at the very good moment (i.e. when Brian & Kevin were lost in their writings) to save the situation.
I'm sorry but it's to easy and that's not litterature. I used to think, to dream with FH's Dune. I might travel over the desert, be solely with Paul's sorrow, aso. With nuDune, I cannot do it anymore.
Everybody screamed when Peter Berg said : "[The book] was much more muscular and adventurous, more violent and possibly even a little bit more fun. [...]I think those are all elements of my experience of the book that can be brought in without offending the die-hard fans of the Bene Gesserit and Kwisatz Haderach. There's a more dynamic film to be made.".

But that what Brian & Kevin are actually doing... :tissue2: :tissue2:


You are still trying to compare Apples and Oranges - they might both be fruit (fiction) but they are not the same.



Well said.
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Re: Winds of Controversy

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 24 Sep 2009 15:02

KJA Special Forces wrote:
redbugpest wrote:
Leto wrote:
A Thing of Eternity wrote:Then, in "dune 7" there are a ton of subplots, but none of them contribute IN ANY WAY to the final resolution of the book, where Norma shows up and does what humanity simply could not accomplish on it's own.


That's exactly the same in Legends of Dune when the Titan's starship appears at the very good moment (i.e. when Brian & Kevin were lost in their writings) to save the situation.
I'm sorry but it's to easy and that's not litterature. I used to think, to dream with FH's Dune. I might travel over the desert, be solely with Paul's sorrow, aso. With nuDune, I cannot do it anymore.
Everybody screamed when Peter Berg said : "[The book] was much more muscular and adventurous, more violent and possibly even a little bit more fun. [...]I think those are all elements of my experience of the book that can be brought in without offending the die-hard fans of the Bene Gesserit and Kwisatz Haderach. There's a more dynamic film to be made.".

But that what Brian & Kevin are actually doing... :tissue2: :tissue2:


You are still trying to compare Apples and Oranges - they might both be fruit (fiction) but they are not the same.



Well said.


How is that well said? This is apples and apples. Or are you refering to comparing the film with the books? All he said was that KJA has already done to the Dune series what Berg was threatening to do to the story in it's film... :roll:
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Re: Winds of Controversy

Postby Leto » 24 Sep 2009 15:33

A Thing of Eternity wrote:How is that well said? This is apples and apples. Or are you refering to comparing the film with the books? All he said was that KJA has already done to the Dune series what Berg was threatening to do to the story in it's film... :roll:


Yes, I did not understand what are the apples and what are the oranges?
Do you mean I cannot compare what KJA&B done to the book with Berg's envision for the film (if it so, tell me why?) or do you mean I cannot compare Legends of Dune with Sandworm of Dune?
In both of case, the comment is irrelevant 'cause I compare two correspondant things :
_ In the first case, it is about their "common" envision of Dune and their approach as authors (even if the media is not the same).
_ In the second one, it is about a literary process which consist in a deus ex machina. Such a technique does not fit with Frank legacy (and I'm very kind using those words --> still my french touch). In the Chronicles, "(anti-)heroes" are condemned to overcome themselves, by overwhelming their (normal) human condition. God does not exist in Dune! Nothing but itself can save humankind...
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Re: Winds of Controversy

Postby SadisticCynic » 24 Sep 2009 18:19

I can't help but post this: Oops I did it again - COB

When I first read the prequels I had only read Dune once and none of the others. I wasn't into literature or anything like that yet, so I thought they were cool; the effect was not particularly lasting though, not like Dune. Dune was like waking up. It was only online that I found out about the inconsistancies. But the absolute final nail (a huuuge nail) was the supposed connection between Marty and Daniel to the Butlerian Jihad yet Erasmus was invented by Kevin. :?

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Re: Winds of Controversy

Postby Ampoliros » 24 Sep 2009 21:17

I think he meant comparing Apples (Dune) to Oranges (NuDune)

The problem here is that KJA is asking us to compare Literature (Dune) to Pew-pew (Him) and take him as the god-send.

I've known of KJA since I read his amazingly craptastic Jedi-Academy trilogy. I only finished it because it was so amazingly bad: a flying snow-cone is the ultimate invulnerable super-weapon, there is a Jedi more powerful than Luke and even Vader who is a snot nosed brat. He blows up an entire solar system, killing billions and gets a slap on the wrist.

I want you to print this next part out and frame it: ------>I LIKED THE TALES OF THE JEDI SERIES<------ co-authored by KJA. I'm not saying it was awesome, just that I enjoyed it.

DUNE IS COMPLETELY DIFFERENT

The Star Wars EU is not great literature, its pulp, but occasionally fun pulp. I don't care if KJA writes more Star Wars books but I sense he was asked not to write anymore because his books were trash. Iiic the last Star Wars work he did was a Youn-Adult themed series.

DUNE is a literary masterpiece. Even after the next masterpiece is written in Sci-Fi, Dune will have a high pillar to rest on and shine down the ages. KJA is attempting to get his name attached to that. He will, as a footnote mentioning his pathetic attempt to continue the series.

RBP, you mention all things aside you enjoy the new books. I don't contend you liking them. Liking them is apples to oranges. I myself wouldn't read them at all if it weren't for the junky high i get off facepalming myself through each page. (see my notes)

KJA doesn't just want you to 'like' them. He'll be insulted that you don't consider them the same, because if he's shown us anything of his attitude, its that he can't stand being compared separately. He considers DUNE his now. That is why I won't stand by and ignore what he is doing.

You mentioned Rush V Britney Spears and suggested not liking it if she did covers. I believe it was ATOE that mentioned KJA was to that as Spears would be to re-writing Rush's lyrics in an opposite manner. He didnt take the analogy far enough.

DUNE is to KJA as Rush is to Britney Spears re-writing "The Spirit of Radio" to be about shopping at the mall for a new push-up and thong set while claiming it was all based on amazing notes she found in Geddy Lee's garage and since it had his blessing it was just as much, maybe more Rush than Rush actually was.
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Re: Winds of Controversy

Postby SandChigger » 24 Sep 2009 21:59

Ampoliros wrote:RBP, you mention all things aside you enjoy the new books. I don't contend you liking them. Liking them is apples to oranges.

Reading them by mistake ("Eeew, look at the shit I bought at the kiosk!") or just to kill time in the airport or on the plane and getting some sort of (incomprehensible to me) weird enjoyment from the experience is one thing, and (probably) ultimately excusable. LIKING them to the point that you will publicly cybersuck the perpetrator and waste web bandwidth to him indicates a serious mental defect or personality flaw.
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Re: Winds of Controversy

Postby Samarkan » 25 Sep 2009 04:33

redbugpest wrote: I do not think that it is unreasonable to think that he may have developed a friendship with Bronso in their youth...blah blah blah


Frank Herbert actually wrote that Paul had no friends his own age. His parents and their servants were his companions. According to Frank Herbert there was nobody named "Bronco" or "Bonzo" or whatever-the-fuck-his-name-was teaching Paul Atreides how to juggle papayas or any other nonsense Junior and Fist-head wrote in their fanfic.

Frank Herbert wrote:You have read that Muad'Dib had no playmates his own age on Caladan. The dangers were too great. But Muad'Dib did have wonderful companion-teachers. There was Gurney Halleck, the troubadour-warrior. You will sing some of Gurney's songs as you read along in this book. There was Thufir Hawat, the old Mentat Master of Assassins, who struck fear even into the heart of the Padishah Emperor. There were Duncan Idaho, the Swordmaster of the Ginaz; Dr. Wellington Yueh, a name black in treachery but bright in knowledge; the Lady Jessica, who guided her son in the Bene Gesserit Way, and--of course--the Duke Leto, whose qualities as a father have long been overlooked.
--from "A Child's History of Muad'Dib" by the Princess Irulan


Yeah, that's quoted straight from a book TheKJA-Hole himself/itself never bothered to have read to him/it... It's called Dune.

I think more people would have been more sympathetic to the Douchetard Brothers if they had only constrained their ... "writing" ... to be consistent with Frank's original canon. The fact that they convoluted the established narrative which was rich, complex and thought-evoking, with their harebrained, poorly-written, and outright fucking silly inventions such as Paul running away to join the circus to be a juggling mime-- it pissed off everyone who was not already on the KJA bandwagon. But for them to announce that their shitty retcon trumps anything Frank had written, in terms of legitimacy, that was just fuel on an already-blazing fire. They were inviting controversy by doing that and then they wonder why some people outright hate them.

The Idiot Twins, Rhumphurt and TheWonderchimp, can scream till they turn purple about how the fanfic diarrhea they continue to churn out is now the official canon ... but so what? Only Rembrandt can paint a Rembrandt. A copyright is just a legal mechanism to preserve profits from the sale of someone's creative property. If that person dies, the original creativity dies with him/her even if the legal right to sell their creations pass on to their heirs. It doesn't matter in the least bit who owns the copyright; if Frank Herbert didn't pen those stories himself and have them published then every KJA disaster (er, "Dunesaster") ever written is not even a remote part of Frank Herbert's Dune continuity. No matter how many times they slap his name on the cover of their books in an effort to lend legitimacy to it.
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Re: Winds of Controversy

Postby Redstar » 25 Sep 2009 04:49

I actually liked that cover. A little over-the-top, but it's a decent visual of BG, HM, and Guildsmen/Navigators.

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Re: Winds of Controversy

Postby Samarkan » 25 Sep 2009 04:52

It looks like the throne is trying to eat the Peter Pan standing next to it. NOM NOM NOM.

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Re: Winds of Controversy

Postby SandChigger » 25 Sep 2009 04:59

Peter Pan? :shock:

MY GAWD! IT'S MICHAEL JACKSON! IN A BLACK UNITARD!!!

WHOA! WHOO-HOO! UNGH!

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Re: Winds of Controversy

Postby Redstar » 25 Sep 2009 05:02

That's the one part that seems off to me, but then again it was hard taking the HM seriously when I couldn't help picturing them as middle-aged women in ballet tights.

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Re: Winds of Controversy

Postby Samarkan » 25 Sep 2009 05:17

"Unitard"... Hey! I think you just came up with a new nickname people can use when referring to Junior and the KJA-Hole as a writing team! seperately, they're only half-tards. or maybe KJA-Hole is the Unitard and Bobo... he's just there to sign his name to stuff so he can get his paycheck. :lol:

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Re: Winds of Controversy

Postby Samarkan » 25 Sep 2009 05:31

Redstar wrote:That's the one part that seems off to me, but then again it was hard taking the HM seriously when I couldn't help picturing them as middle-aged women in ballet tights.


I always picture them as looking sort of like geishas. i think he described them as wearing bright colored robes with dragons printed on them over their unitards. or maybe not a geisha dress but more like the chinese dresses with the slits on the side. I think Frank got the idea from playing too much Street Fighter II as Chun Li. XD

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Re: Winds of Controversy

Postby redbugpest » 25 Sep 2009 10:51

Samarkan wrote:
Redstar wrote:That's the one part that seems off to me, but then again it was hard taking the HM seriously when I couldn't help picturing them as middle-aged women in ballet tights.


I always picture them as looking sort of like geishas. i think he described them as wearing bright colored robes with dragons printed on them over their unitards. or maybe not a geisha dress but more like the chinese dresses with the slits on the side. I think Frank got the idea from playing too much Street Fighter II as Chun Li. XD


Yes - they did have a distinct oriental flavor when he described them.
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Re: Winds of Controversy

Postby lotek » 25 Sep 2009 13:00

redbugpest wrote:
Samarkan wrote:
Redstar wrote:That's the one part that seems off to me, but then again it was hard taking the HM seriously when I couldn't help picturing them as middle-aged women in ballet tights.


I always picture them as looking sort of like geishas. i think he described them as wearing bright colored robes with dragons printed on them over their unitards. or maybe not a geisha dress but more like the chinese dresses with the slits on the side. I think Frank got the idea from playing too much Street Fighter II as Chun Li. XD


Yes - they did have a distinct oriental flavor when he described them.


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Re: Winds of Controversy

Postby Freakzilla » 25 Sep 2009 14:37

I like to picture them as muscular trapeeze artists.
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Re: Winds of Controversy

Postby Lundse » 27 Sep 2009 12:54

redbugpest wrote:So let’s start here – The overwhelming evidence points to Paul being born on Caladan. I will concede that point right now. That does not, however, take away from the enjoyment that I received from reading neither the Original Dune books, nor the new Dune books.


Now, we are getting somewhere.

It is obvious that KJA either fucked up, or simply does not care. Either way, the next step in understanding what is so monumentally wrong about this is to look at why his birthplace matter.

The main reason for writing the Dune chronicles was to interpret, reverse and explore the hero myth. We have several interviews with Frank where he says just this. And is it quite obvious, especially to those who may have dabbled in literature or happen to know a few things about mythology.

I believe Frank himself mentioned Joseph Campbell's Monomyth, which can is summarized:
A hero ventures forth from the world of common day into a region of supernatural wonder: fabulous forces are there encountered and a decisive victory is won: the hero comes back from this mysterious adventure with the power to bestow boons on his fellow man.



Notice the beginning there? Or every fairytale or Greek tragedy ever? The hero starts at home. A safe place of order. Notice how Frank starts Dune - Paul is in his bed, his mother watching over him - we get a few scenes on Caladan, where Paul is safe among his trusted companions. (Of course, a whole lot of foreshadowing of witchery, treachery, etc. is going on too - but Paul is safe!)

Frank is building a typical hero-myth, so that he can tear it down (this is done slowly and delicately in Dune, and then hammered home in Dune Messiah). Being born and having lived so far in a safe home until the start of Dune is one of the ways Frank is making Paul a typical hero! THAT is why the whole circus-jaunt is not only silly and stupid and horribly clichéed - it also destroys some of the magic and meaning of Dune!


Either you believe Frank when he wrote Paul had never been off-planet, and his journey to Arrakis become the heroes first step from a safe world into the political, superhuman, dangerous world he is going to change forever - not incidentally, by sprinkling a bit of "home" (Caladan/Atreides) over the universe (this is the bit which fails, until he walks into the desert).
Or you believe Paul was already a "childhood hollywood hero" - just like the smart and funny kids in Jurassic Park. Oh, and that his initation into the "magical universe" of the witches was not as important as what he learned from a sequined clown - ie. that the "supernatural" layer of Dune is not relevant to the political layer of the tale.

So what is it?

And yes, I have a pretty clear idea which one you have to choose to be a fan of Frank Herbert. The other one is simply not taking the man serious...

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Re: Winds of Controversy

Postby TheDukester » 27 Sep 2009 13:09

Lundse wrote:Frank is building a typical hero-myth, so that he can tear it down (this is done slowly and delicately in Dune, and then hammered home in Dune Messiah). Being born and having lived so far in a safe home until the start of Dune is one of the ways Frank is making Paul a typical hero! THAT is why the whole circus-jaunt is not only silly and stupid and horribly clichéed - it also destroys some of the magic and meaning of Dune!

Great post. I tried to hit on some of this with an earlier post of mine, but I think you hit more of the important notes than I did.

I don't think this can be overstated in terms of those who understand and appreciate Dune, and those who are pew-pew-pew, action-addicted preektards. Paul's status at the beginning of Dune is vital to appreciating everything that happens afterwards.

This is a perfect example of why Kevin J. Anderson is so universally loathed by people who can actually think for themselves. He deliberately set out to undermine one of the most important aspects of the entire Dune saga, and he didn't have the slightest reason, from a literary standpoint, to do so. He wanted the freedom to write Young Indiana Atreides adventures, nothing more. It's what he's best at, and he knew the preektards would lap it up and ensure that those fat paychecks would keep rolling in.

He really is unspeakable. I sincerely hope there is an afterlife; if so, Frank Herbert is going to beat TheKJA into a coma every single day until he finally breaks his knuckles on his thick skull.
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Re: Winds of Controversy

Postby Serkanner » 27 Sep 2009 13:16

Thank you Lundse for expressing my opinions and insights in a way I can't.
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Re: Winds of Controversy

Postby Lundse » 27 Sep 2009 15:53

TheDukester wrote:[KJA]deliberately set out to undermine one of the most important aspects of the entire Dune saga, and he didn't have the slightest reason, from a literary standpoint, to do so. He wanted the freedom to write Young Indiana Atreides adventures, nothing more.


Cue the "But that's what idiot 13-year-olds want, so that makes it all right"-argument.

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Re: Winds of Controversy

Postby Slugger » 27 Sep 2009 17:15

Lundse wrote:
TheDukester wrote:[KJA]deliberately set out to undermine one of the most important aspects of the entire Dune saga, and he didn't have the slightest reason, from a literary standpoint, to do so. He wanted the freedom to write Young Indiana Atreides adventures, nothing more.


Cue the "But that's what idiot 13-year-olds want, so that makes it all right"-argument.

And that's because such adventures bring in new readers to Dune..

This circular logic is terrifying. :(

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Re: Winds of Controversy

Postby Seraphan » 27 Sep 2009 19:35

TheDukester wrote:
Lundse wrote:Frank is building a typical hero-myth, so that he can tear it down (this is done slowly and delicately in Dune, and then hammered home in Dune Messiah). Being born and having lived so far in a safe home until the start of Dune is one of the ways Frank is making Paul a typical hero! THAT is why the whole circus-jaunt is not only silly and stupid and horribly clichéed - it also destroys some of the magic and meaning of Dune!

Great post. I tried to hit on some of this with an earlier post of mine, but I think you hit more of the important notes than I did.

I don't think this can be overstated in terms of those who understand and appreciate Dune, and those who are pew-pew-pew, action-addicted preektards. Paul's status at the beginning of Dune is vital to appreciating everything that happens afterwards.

This is a perfect example of why Kevin J. Anderson is so universally loathed by people who can actually think for themselves. He deliberately set out to undermine one of the most important aspects of the entire Dune saga, and he didn't have the slightest reason, from a literary standpoint, to do so. He wanted the freedom to write Young Indiana Atreides adventures, nothing more. It's what he's best at, and he knew the preektards would lap it up and ensure that those fat paychecks would keep rolling in.

He really is unspeakable. I sincerely hope there is an afterlife; if so, Frank Herbert is going to beat TheKJA into a coma every single day until he finally breaks his knuckles on his thick skull.

Dont forget what KJA said, that Paul was the greatest sci-fi hero to him and that Frank Herbert did something terrible to Paul.

That shows that, besides not understanding what Dune is, he hates all the novels that came after the first.
Remember what he said about the BSG finale, "I didnt like it, i might write a few chapters of my own". This is what it's all about, along with making money and attempting to glorify his ego.
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