too obvious, right?

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too obvious, right?

Postby Schu » 26 Sep 2009 10:47

I've been wondering about some of the joyful arguments made by pretards in defence of McDune, and there seems to be an incredibly obvious contradiction that I'm wondering whether anyone else has spotted.

First argument is "if you don't like them, why don't you stop reading them?" Fairly reasonable, and I've pretty much done that, but not at all a defence of McDune, just a change of topic.

Second argument is "you guys haven't read through all the McDune books, how can you criticise McDune if you haven't read the whole oevre?" which, though rather often inaccurate (remember when Belle Moo-lay managed to try using that one and had to admit that I'd actually read more McDune than he had? :D), is completely retarded anyway, but that's not the point of this thread.

Clearly there's a huge contradiction between these two arguments. Has anyone else noticed this? More importantly, has anyone ever said both? If possible, in the same thread, or even the same post? That sounds like something TAZ might have done :D

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Re: too obvious, right?

Postby SandChigger » 26 Sep 2009 11:33

The first they can say because they really aren't Dune or Frank Herbert fans. If they were, they would understand that the repeated claims that the McDune books are based in some way on Frank Herbert's materials makes them (or at least made the early ones) irresistible to an actual Dune/FH fan. Because they don't understand what it is to be a real fan of something wonderful, they can use this gambit, hoping that the real fans will be persuaded by its "reasonableness" and just go away and leave them alone in their fantasy, that bizarro world where reading CRAP with DUNE big on the cover somehow buys them a ticket to legitimacy in the world of true Dune fandom.

The second is what they fall back on when the first fails. And as Pestie has shown, even some Preeqs are fuzzy on what exactly their prized new books really say. :)

Seriously, though, if these people were really brain trusts or rocket scientists, they wouldn't like McDune to begin with, would they? (TAZ was and, actually, remains the perfect example of the mental fluidity that characterizes these people. I've long suspected he wears earplugs to keep whatever brains remain from leaking out. :P )
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Re: too obvious, right?

Postby redbugpest » 26 Sep 2009 15:46

SandChigger wrote:The first they can say because they really aren't Dune or Frank Herbert fans. If they were, they would understand that the repeated claims that the McDune books are based in some way on Frank Herbert's materials makes them (or at least made the early ones) irresistible to an actual Dune/FH fan. Because they don't understand what it is to be a real fan of something wonderful, they can use this gambit, hoping that the real fans will be persuaded by its "reasonableness" and just go away and leave them alone in their fantasy, that bizarro world where reading CRAP with DUNE big on the cover somehow buys them a ticket to legitimacy in the world of true Dune fandom.

The second is what they fall back on when the first fails. And as Pestie has shown, even some Preeqs are fuzzy on what exactly their prized new books really say. :)

Seriously, though, if these people were really brain trusts or rocket scientists, they wouldn't like McDune to begin with, would they? (TAZ was and, actually, remains the perfect example of the mental fluidity that characterizes these people. I've long suspected he wears earplugs to keep whatever brains remain from leaking out. :P )

The first is a valid argument because most reasonable people will not continue to trade their money and time for something that they know is not going to make them happy. There is just no value in it.

You are right, I am fuzzy on a lot of the minutia in the new Dune books. But then again, I don't study them as if they were some kind of religious teachings. In economic terms, I derive a reasonable amount of utility from them, and some of them provide enough utility for me to choose to read them more than once. I read them to enjoy the story that is presented, not because I am searching for some hidden pearl of wisdom. That is not to say that I might not find something that will give me pause to consider the implications. I have never claimed to have all the answerers.
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Re: too obvious, right?

Postby SandChigger » 26 Sep 2009 17:23

Oh, how unsightly! A preeq blowing it in public again. :snooty: :naughty:
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Re: too obvious, right?

Postby Serkanner » 26 Sep 2009 17:31

redbugpest wrote:
SandChigger wrote:The first they can say because they really aren't Dune or Frank Herbert fans. If they were, they would understand that the repeated claims that the McDune books are based in some way on Frank Herbert's materials makes them (or at least made the early ones) irresistible to an actual Dune/FH fan. Because they don't understand what it is to be a real fan of something wonderful, they can use this gambit, hoping that the real fans will be persuaded by its "reasonableness" and just go away and leave them alone in their fantasy, that bizarro world where reading CRAP with DUNE big on the cover somehow buys them a ticket to legitimacy in the world of true Dune fandom.

The second is what they fall back on when the first fails. And as Pestie has shown, even some Preeqs are fuzzy on what exactly their prized new books really say. :)

Seriously, though, if these people were really brain trusts or rocket scientists, they wouldn't like McDune to begin with, would they? (TAZ was and, actually, remains the perfect example of the mental fluidity that characterizes these people. I've long suspected he wears earplugs to keep whatever brains remain from leaking out. :P )

The first is a valid argument because most reasonable people will not continue to trade their money and time for something that they know is not going to make them happy. There is just no value in it.

You are right, I am fuzzy on a lot of the minutia in the new Dune books. But then again, I don't study them as if they were some kind of religious teachings. In economic terms, I derive a reasonable amount of utility from them, and some of them provide enough utility for me to choose to read them more than once. I read them to enjoy the story that is presented, not because I am searching for some hidden pearl of wisdom. That is not to say that I might not find something that will give me pause to consider the implications. I have never claimed to have all the answerers.


In other words: you have no fucking idea what you are talking about when "discussing" Dune. Any and all argument you have positioned is therefore invalid. Fail and aids.
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Re: too obvious, right?

Postby SandChigger » 26 Sep 2009 17:42

And since I believe he has said he will not "act as a go-between" with KJA, he really has no value here whatsoever.

FAIL & FAIL. :)
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Re: too obvious, right?

Postby Serkanner » 26 Sep 2009 17:46

SandChigger wrote:And since I believe he has said he will not "act as a go-between" with KJA, he really has no value here whatsoever.

FAIL & FAIL. :)


I agree that it would be the only value to his membership here if he would indeed acknowledge he is a go-between with the Hack. Reading Conway's drivel is as bad as reading nuDune!
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Re: too obvious, right?

Postby redbugpest » 26 Sep 2009 18:13

Serkanner wrote:
SandChigger wrote:And since I believe he has said he will not "act as a go-between" with KJA, he really has no value here whatsoever.

FAIL & FAIL. :)


I agree that it would be the only value to his membership here if he would indeed acknowledge he is a go-between with the Hack. Reading Conway's drivel is as bad as reading nuDune!


So don't read it! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

That was TOO easy!
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Re: too obvious, right?

Postby SandChigger » 26 Sep 2009 18:19

^^^ Easily amused.

Obviously.

Isn't this about where you whinge and moan about being distracted by the haters from answering those threads where you haven't even made an attempt at it yet? :)
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Re: too obvious, right?

Postby Serkanner » 26 Sep 2009 18:22

redbugpest wrote:
Serkanner wrote:
SandChigger wrote:And since I believe he has said he will not "act as a go-between" with KJA, he really has no value here whatsoever.

FAIL & FAIL. :)


I agree that it would be the only value to his membership here if he would indeed acknowledge he is a go-between with the Hack. Reading Conway's drivel is as bad as reading nuDune!


So don't read it! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

That was TOO easy!


Man you are sad.
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Re: too obvious, right?

Postby redbugpest » 26 Sep 2009 18:43

Serkanner wrote:
redbugpest wrote:
Serkanner wrote:
SandChigger wrote:And since I believe he has said he will not "act as a go-between" with KJA, he really has no value here whatsoever.

FAIL & FAIL. :)


I agree that it would be the only value to his membership here if he would indeed acknowledge he is a go-between with the Hack. Reading Conway's drivel is as bad as reading nuDune!


So don't read it! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

That was TOO easy!


Man you are sad.


Speak for yourself. You are the one who is acting the fool.
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Re: too obvious, right?

Postby Leto » 26 Sep 2009 19:33

Serkanner wrote:
redbugpest wrote:So don't read it! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

That was TOO easy!


Man you are sad.


A pretty nice shot. Too clever to be just a KJAStupidFollower. Who are you? Did "they" threat you?

Regarding those arguments, you won't see them in the same post (but two people might use them in the same thread), cause they refer to differents approaches.
The first one (if you don't like, don't read and let me alone) is based on "libertarian" way of thinking : everyone may do what he wants. If you don't agree with him, take a look elsewhere. Too easy, cause they're polluting my Duniverse's pleasure.
The second one (you can't criticize cause you didn't read them) is widely employed cause a lot of KJA non-fan pretend they did'nt read the preeks. But they did'nt understand there is no need to read the McDune to disagree with the policy of HLP regarding the fans (DN rules or way of "justice"). Neither, they didn't know that the KJA's teasers on his website are sufficient to understand what is it about...
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Re: too obvious, right?

Postby redbugpest » 26 Sep 2009 20:44

Leto wrote:
Serkanner wrote:
redbugpest wrote:So don't read it! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

That was TOO easy!


Man you are sad.


A pretty nice shot. Too clever to be just a KJAStupidFollower. Who are you? Did "they" threat you?

Regarding those arguments, you won't see them in the same post (but two people might use them in the same thread), cause they refer to differents approaches.
The first one (if you don't like, don't read and let me alone) is based on "libertarian" way of thinking : everyone may do what he wants. If you don't agree with him, take a look elsewhere. Too easy, cause they're polluting my Duniverse's pleasure.
The second one (you can't criticize cause you didn't read them) is widely employed cause a lot of KJA non-fan pretend they did'nt read the preeks. But they did'nt understand there is no need to read the McDune to disagree with the policy of HLP regarding the fans (DN rules or way of "justice"). Neither, they didn't know that the KJA's teasers on his website are sufficient to understand what is it about...


Thank you. No, I just enjoy the new Dune books for what they are. I find them entertaining to read. Plain and simple.

Yes the first argument is "Libertarian" in it's nature. But is is not that easy. You feel it is polluting your Dune universe, I am enjoying them. If you were to force them to stop writing them, I would loose any and all ability to read them. You, on the other hand do not have to consider them canon, do not have to read them, and can, if you choose, ignore their existence. By doing so, I can still read them, and we both win.

The biggest use I have seen of that so far has been in the review arena, with claims on both sides that reviews are being posted without having read the book first. This is valid in this instance, since no one should be writing a review on anything that they have not experienced firsthand.


I suspect that this post will draw a lot of negative comments, but it is the way I feel, and applies in real life. Can you imagine what life would be like if the ultra conservatives ran the world? there would be no real rights and freedoms, and no innovation or original thought. As distasteful as you may find it, there has to be room for us all.
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Re: too obvious, right?

Postby Slugger » 26 Sep 2009 21:15

I don't want to get in the middle of this epic argument, but...

redbugpest wrote:Thank you. No, I just enjoy the new Dune books for what they are. I find them entertaining to read. Plain and simple.

Plain and silly.

redbugpest wrote:Yes the first argument is "Libertarian" in it's nature. But is is not that easy. You feel it is polluting your Dune universe, I am enjoying them. If you were to force them to stop writing them, I would loose any and all ability to read them. You, on the other hand do not have to consider them canon, do not have to read them, and can, if you choose, ignore their existence. By doing so, I can still read them, and we both win.

I think Larry Niven said something to the effect that a good story is a "playground for the mind." What the Hacks are doing is ripping out the playgrounds, all the slides and merry-go-rounds, and replacing them with signs describing what you'll feel. I don't want someone telling me exactly what I should do; I don't want a universe to be micro-managed. I want to explore the ideas.

redbugpest wrote:I suspect that this post will draw a lot of negative comments, but it is the way I feel, and applies in real life. Can you imagine what life would be like if the ultra conservatives ran the world? there would be no real rights and freedoms, and no innovation or original thought. As distasteful as you may find it, there has to be room for us all.

What does that whole "ultra conservative" rant have to do about anything? That in itself is revealing. What about the ultra-liberals? They're saviors? Are you implying that the OH are "ultra conservatives" and that the Hack is a savior to Dune? He's teh SUPER-DOOPER KWISTART HADERACK!!!!!1!

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Re: too obvious, right?

Postby redbugpest » 26 Sep 2009 21:29

Slugger wrote:I don't want to get in the middle of this epic argument, but...

redbugpest wrote:Thank you. No, I just enjoy the new Dune books for what they are. I find them entertaining to read. Plain and simple.

Plain and silly.

redbugpest wrote:Yes the first argument is "Libertarian" in it's nature. But is is not that easy. You feel it is polluting your Dune universe, I am enjoying them. If you were to force them to stop writing them, I would loose any and all ability to read them. You, on the other hand do not have to consider them canon, do not have to read them, and can, if you choose, ignore their existence. By doing so, I can still read them, and we both win.

I think Larry Niven said something to the effect that a good story is a "playground for the mind." What the Hacks are doing is ripping out the playgrounds, all the slides and merry-go-rounds, and replacing them with signs describing what you'll feel. I don't want someone telling me exactly what I should do; I don't want a universe to be micro-managed. I want to explore the ideas.
So do I, but you seem to want to micro manage it.
redbugpest wrote:I suspect that this post will draw a lot of negative comments, but it is the way I feel, and applies in real life. Can you imagine what life would be like if the ultra conservatives ran the world? there would be no real rights and freedoms, and no innovation or original thought. As distasteful as you may find it, there has to be room for us all.

What does that whole "ultra conservative" rant have to do about anything? That in itself is revealing. What about the ultra-liberals? They're saviors? Are you implying that the OH are "ultra conservatives" and that the Hack is a savior to Dune? He's teh SUPER-DOOPER KWISTART HADERACK!!!!!1!


I should have said extremist instead, because, yes, the far left is as bad as the far right.

In this particular debate, you are representing a more conservative doctrine. The very name "Orthodox Herbertarians" attests to a conservative mindset.
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Re: too obvious, right?

Postby Slugger » 26 Sep 2009 22:07

redbugpest wrote:So do I, but you seem to want to micro manage it.

What do you mean by that? Please enlighten me on how I "seem to want to micro manage it"? That table-turning argumentative cliche is weak...and something I'd expect my sister. ("I know you are but what am I?")

redbugpest wrote:I should have said extremist instead, because, yes, the far left is as bad as the far right.

But you didn't and that's the important part. This isn't like live discussion, where words just spew spontaneously from mouths; you can review your words prior to clicking submit in order to exactly declare your intentions.

redbugpest wrote:In this particular debate, you are representing a more conservative doctrine. The very name "Orthodox Herbertarians" attests to a conservative mindset.

You failed to address my question (wow, and I was thinking that the others were being too harsh on you). Don't attempt to analyze and us against me my writing when you can't clarify and justify yours. In this debate, I put-forth a neutral question; I clearly chose "OH" because it is the name of the group I was contrasting KJA against.

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Re: too obvious, right?

Postby SandChigger » 26 Sep 2009 23:05

Welcome to the world of Pestie-"think", Slugger. :lol:
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Re: too obvious, right?

Postby Schu » 27 Sep 2009 01:20

The first one isn't *real* libertarian ideology - under that, I'd have a perfect right to criticise as much as I like, and you shouldn't even be arguing to even try to make me stop.

OH is hardly ultra-conservative, just because it has the word orthodox in it. If you'll read the political forums, we're a pretty leftist bunch, with a few exceptions. Liberal philosophy doesn't just blindly accept any change or anything new. Recognising something new as crap and not wanting to swallow it hardly makes one conservative.

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Re: too obvious, right?

Postby Leto » 27 Sep 2009 07:16

redbugpest wrote:Yes the first argument is "Libertarian" in it's nature. But is is not that easy. You feel it is polluting your Dune universe, I am enjoying them. If you were to force them to stop writing them, I would loose any and all ability to read them. You, on the other hand do not have to consider them canon, do not have to read them, and can, if you choose, ignore their existence. By doing so, I can still read them, and we both win.


You don't understand how polluting are the preeks, do you?
Let's pretend I didn't read them. I'd go to DN in order to talk about Golden Path or what so ever. I'd wonder what are the aims of it, where does it come from, aso... And there, some KJSAF would have said me : "Yo Dude, you don't have to ask yourself all of those too difficult questions : in fact Norma Goddess will suck them all. Golden Path was useless 'cause in Houses, humankind, thanks to Yueh, exceed the Butlerian Jihad taboo by building a bionic man". So, tell me, where is the legacy of Frank in all this bullshit?!

Furthermore, that's too late, I read them! I cannot pretend I didn't... So, I've to prevent people that's not good literature and that doesn't fit with Frank Herbert envision. Do remember who is the most valuable work : the original one (i.e. frank Herbert's Dune) or what was build around (DE as nuDune)?
And I don't speak about people who told me :"Well, you're reading Dune? The SW remake by KJA? Too bad...". Wait a minute, man, Dune is far more than that...
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Re: too obvious, right?

Postby Schu » 27 Sep 2009 07:54

It isn't even that. I don't want those hacks to stop writing (ok I do, but I support their freedom to write), I want them to want to stop or improve, but even moreso, I want them to stop using the name of Dune. It is not Dune. It is fanfic. It is most certainly not canon.

Stopping calling it dune or canon would stop the pollution and still allow you to keep reading.

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Re: too obvious, right?

Postby redbugpest » 27 Sep 2009 10:21

Schu wrote:It isn't even that. I don't want those hacks to stop writing (ok I do, but I support their freedom to write), I want them to want to stop or improve, but even moreso, I want them to stop using the name of Dune. It is not Dune. It is fanfic. It is most certainly not canon.

Stopping calling it dune or canon would stop the pollution and still allow you to keep reading.


It is Dune in so much as it is in the same universe, using (in some cases) the same characters. Unfortunatly, the people making the product do not feel it needs to be improved, and do not appear to be open to suggestions from outside forces.

Now, I understand that this has been an issue for 10 years now, and that the present iteration of this conflict has deteriorated into name calling, muck raking, and other hatespeech methodologies, but I would submit to you that you most certainly will NEVER be effective in getting traction on your (collective) opinion using the methodologies in play today. For them to want to improve it, you would have to convince them that there is something that needs to be improved.

Open hostility is not conductive towards effecting change.
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Re: too obvious, right?

Postby SandChigger » 27 Sep 2009 10:26

Well, since I fear and don't want change ... FUCK you. :)
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Re: too obvious, right?

Postby TheDukester » 27 Sep 2009 10:51

redbugpest wrote:... the present iteration of this conflict has deteriorated into name calling, muck raking, and other hatespeech methodologies ...

You're laying it on just a bit thick this morning, Brian. :roll:
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Re: too obvious, right?

Postby Schu » 27 Sep 2009 10:54

redbugpest wrote:
Schu wrote:It isn't even that. I don't want those hacks to stop writing (ok I do, but I support their freedom to write), I want them to want to stop or improve, but even moreso, I want them to stop using the name of Dune. It is not Dune. It is fanfic. It is most certainly not canon.

Stopping calling it dune or canon would stop the pollution and still allow you to keep reading.


It is Dune in so much as it is in the same universe, using (in some cases) the same characters. Unfortunatly, the people making the product do not feel it needs to be improved, and do not appear to be open to suggestions from outside forces.

Now, I understand that this has been an issue for 10 years now, and that the present iteration of this conflict has deteriorated into name calling, muck raking, and other hatespeech methodologies, but I would submit to you that you most certainly will NEVER be effective in getting traction on your (collective) opinion using the methodologies in play today. For them to want to improve it, you would have to convince them that there is something that needs to be improved.

Open hostility is not conductive towards effecting change.


So are you saying that you agree with me? That it shouldn't be called canon, and that the new authors aren't listening to something that would be a good thing? :lol:

OK sweetypie, I'll pretend that you're completely clueless about this, though I don't doubt for an instant that you have more idea about this than you let on.

It is not the same universe, there are innumerable inconsistencies between Dune and McDune, and McDune has decanonised one of FH's entire novels, if not the entire series.

The fact that the people making it think it doesn't need to be improved and are not open to suggestions is a weakness, a big flaw that has been noticed in the authors and their fans alike.

I'm sure you must realise that KJA wasn't always as hated as this. It is his (and BH's) refusal to listen to anything like a suggestion or criticism that has caused anything that may have resembled reasonable communication to break down, since all OHs are now convinced that they will never change so there's no point trying.

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Re: too obvious, right?

Postby Nekhrun » 27 Sep 2009 11:30

redbugpest wrote:
Schu wrote:Stopping calling it dune or canon would stop the pollution and still allow you to keep reading.


It is Dune in so much as it is in the same universe...

Not even close.
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