"Earl" Gurney

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"Earl" Gurney

Postby Ampoliros » 06 Oct 2009 16:43

I brought this up over on Amazon but thought I'd bring it over here for discussion.

C. Carter Holland wrote:I mean he (KJA) fell for the Earl Gurney trick: Complaints were made that Gurney's Earldom was never mentioned in NuDune, then suddenly "Earl Gurney" is all over Winds of Dune. Guess what Kev, Frank Himself only mentioned it once, in DUNE and only as a concession of victory; It is quite possible that Gurney turned down the promotion to remain in Jessica's court, or simply that Frank completely forgot about it OR CONSIDERED IT A STORY NOT WORTH TELLING.


I know its supposed to be a compliment to see one's own work in print, but in this case I think it rather proves the point of how much KJA extracts from the OH situation in his writing.

I give credit to the OH for this revelation because while it is quite possible that KJA did get it from the end of Dune, I think its much more likely that he's never read the original, and paraphrasing an often quoted point made by our esteemed organization "I simply don't think he's that smart."

Simply put, a hook was cast into the water, and a balding flounder bit right in.

EDIT: I moved this here to the beginning to show that parts of the arguement I made are wrong however the truth at the heart of it remains pretty much intact:

Ampoliros wrote:Going Back, here are some some quotes (provided by an anonymous tipster ;) ) from PoD that DO mention the earldom.

Paul of Dune wrote:
Officially, Gurney had been granted an earldom on Caladan as part of Shaddam's surrender terms, but Paul had given Gurney no chance to settle here.

Affable Gurney, the troubadour warrior whose talent with a baliset was as well known as his skill with a sword. He had made the man an earl of Caladan, then denied him any time to settle there and make a real life. Gurney, I am sorry. And you did not complain for a moment.

He already had an earldom on Caladan, but Jessica had taken the title of Duchess, and the people there loved her. He didn't want to take anything away from her. But... Giedi Prime? Paul was doing him no favors.


So I was wrong, for some part. :oops:

However, being wrong on one point ("Earl" Gurney) doesn't dismiss the fact that KJA is able to mention obscure facts from the book, and yet patently ignore blatant facts (Birthplace, Trips off world, Mentat training, the role of a secure home in Hero mythology...)
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Re: "Earl" Gurney

Postby Leto » 06 Oct 2009 17:04

Does Paul give him a land (planet or something)?
'cause "Earl Gurney" may only be a "title", as Fenring, who's a Count without territory.

Chigg, as you've read WoD, how Kitty Imageis dealing with that ?
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Re: "Earl" Gurney

Postby Ampoliros » 06 Oct 2009 17:08

at the end of Dune, Paul requests that Gurney be set up with an Earldom in the fief of Caladan. Its the only time in Frank's books that it's ever mentioned.

NuDune doesn't mention it until WoD.


I'm trying to find the specific posts where this was brought up, its possible its buried in the wilderness of Amazon.com.
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Re: "Earl" Gurney

Postby trang » 06 Oct 2009 20:37

Well I have the WOD Audio, just havent found the time to listen to it yet. As for Gurney, I believe that is correct, the only mention is at the last scene where concessions from the Emperor were stated prior to giving up his throne.

I often wondered of a side story (not a whole book) on the returning of Gurney and Jessica to Caladan and how House Atreidies (Obviously the seat of power for the House was on Arrakis at Pauls capitial in Arrakeen) worked and was restored to function there.

Disregarding POD or the other NON-DUNESENSE, Hair and the Jacket scrawled, Gurney must have been very busy working for Paul during the JIHAD.

Anyway, whether the Earldom ever evolved is not listed, but if Paul stated the desire as on coming Emperor, with Multi-Millions of fanatic Fremen behind him, kind of easy to deduce that he got pretty much everything he stated, eh?

I believe you have Count Fenring's title misplaced there, he inherited it out of the Corrino Emperor's court, not a feudal Land holder, no major or minor house. He and his lady were Imperial Agents to Arrakis during the Harkonnen regime, and he worked on "delicate issues" for Shaddam.
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Re: "Earl" Gurney

Postby Freakzilla » 06 Oct 2009 21:26

Count Fenring ruled Caladan "in absentia".

Conditions of Shaddam IV's surrender were:

Titles for all surviving Atreides men
Earldom for Gurney and Caladan as fife
Princess Irulan
ALL of Shaddam's CHOAM holdings

This is all from memory, I'm on Mom's PC. :(
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Re: "Earl" Gurney

Postby Ampoliros » 06 Oct 2009 22:03

Don't forget Paul was going to terraform Salusa Secundus into a paradise for free!
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Re: "Earl" Gurney

Postby Freakzilla » 07 Oct 2009 08:03

Ampoliros wrote:Don't forget Paul was going to terraform Salusa Secundus into a paradise for free!


...and Shaddam was limited to a legion of active Sardaukar.

"The Emperor's entire CHOAM Company holdings as dowry," he said.
"Entire?" She was shocked almost speechless.
"He is to be stripped. I'll want an earldom and CHOAM directorship for
Gurney Halleck, and him in the fief of Caladan. There will be titles and
attendant power for every surviving Atreides man, not excepting the lowliest
trooper."
"What of the Fremen?" Jessica asked.
"The Fremen are mine," Paul said. "What they receive shall be dispensed by
Muad'Dib. It'll begin with Stilgar as Governor on Arrakis, but that can wait."
"And for me?" Jessica asked.
"Is there something you wish?"
"Perhaps Caladan," she said, looking at Gurney.

~Dune

"The Qizarate's report on Salusa Secundus. Irulan's father has been putting his
legions through landing maneuvers."
Irulan found something of interest in the palm of her left hand. A pulse
throbbed at her neck.
"Irulan," Paul asked, "do you persist in arguing that your father's one
legion is nothing more than a toy?"
"What could he do with only one legion?" she asked. She stared at him out of
slitted eyes.
"He could get himself killed," Chani said.

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Re: "Earl" Gurney

Postby redbugpest » 07 Oct 2009 09:52

Ampoliros wrote:I brought this up over on Amazon but thought I'd bring it over here for discussion.

C. Carter Holland wrote:I mean he (KJA) fell for the Earl Gurney trick: Complaints were made that Gurney's Earldom was never mentioned in NuDune, then suddenly "Earl Gurney" is all over Winds of Dune. Guess what Kev, Frank Himself only mentioned it once, in DUNE and only as a concession of victory; It is quite possible that Gurney turned down the promotion to remain in Jessica's court, or simply that Frank completely forgot about it OR CONSIDERED IT A STORY NOT WORTH TELLING.


I know its supposed to be a compliment to see one's own work in print, but in this case I think it rather proves the point of how much KJA extracts from the OH situation in his writing.

I give credit to the OH for this revelation because while it is quite possible that KJA did get it from the end of Dune, I think its much more likely that he's never read the original, and paraphrasing an often quoted point made by our esteemed organization "I simply don't think he's that smart."

Simply put, a hook was cast into the water, and a balding flounder bit right in.


Unbelievable. He ties in with an obscure fact from the originals, and you think it is because of the OH.... And you think HE thinks his shite don't stink...
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Re: "Earl" Gurney

Postby Freakzilla » 07 Oct 2009 10:11

You don't find it curious that he DIDN'T mention it where he should have, in PoD, where it happened chronologically, then DOES in the next book after someone mentions it?

Do you also think it's coincidental that he DIDN'T wear The Jacket to Dragon*Con after we picked on him for it, even though he's had it on in every publicity photo from signings and appearances?

I think not.

:P
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Re: "Earl" Gurney

Postby lotek » 07 Oct 2009 10:12

redbugpest wrote:
Ampoliros wrote:I brought this up over on Amazon but thought I'd bring it over here for discussion.

C. Carter Holland wrote:I mean he (KJA) fell for the Earl Gurney trick: Complaints were made that Gurney's Earldom was never mentioned in NuDune, then suddenly "Earl Gurney" is all over Winds of Dune. Guess what Kev, Frank Himself only mentioned it once, in DUNE and only as a concession of victory; It is quite possible that Gurney turned down the promotion to remain in Jessica's court, or simply that Frank completely forgot about it OR CONSIDERED IT A STORY NOT WORTH TELLING.


I know its supposed to be a compliment to see one's own work in print, but in this case I think it rather proves the point of how much KJA extracts from the OH situation in his writing.

I give credit to the OH for this revelation because while it is quite possible that KJA did get it from the end of Dune, I think its much more likely that he's never read the original, and paraphrasing an often quoted point made by our esteemed organization "I simply don't think he's that smart."

Simply put, a hook was cast into the water, and a balding flounder bit right in.


Unbelievable. He ties in with an obscure fact from the originals, and you think it is because of the OH.... And you think HE thinks his shite don't stink...


hey look i'm not Dune ignorant, after writing so many doors blockers, i came up with an "obscure fact" mentionned once in the original series, and again I show my total lack of understanding of he workings of Dune

And btw his shit doesn't stink, all the dung goes in his hiking recorder.
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Re: "Earl" Gurney

Postby Freakzilla » 07 Oct 2009 10:13

lotek wrote:
redbugpest wrote:
Ampoliros wrote:I brought this up over on Amazon but thought I'd bring it over here for discussion.

C. Carter Holland wrote:I mean he (KJA) fell for the Earl Gurney trick: Complaints were made that Gurney's Earldom was never mentioned in NuDune, then suddenly "Earl Gurney" is all over Winds of Dune. Guess what Kev, Frank Himself only mentioned it once, in DUNE and only as a concession of victory; It is quite possible that Gurney turned down the promotion to remain in Jessica's court, or simply that Frank completely forgot about it OR CONSIDERED IT A STORY NOT WORTH TELLING.


I know its supposed to be a compliment to see one's own work in print, but in this case I think it rather proves the point of how much KJA extracts from the OH situation in his writing.

I give credit to the OH for this revelation because while it is quite possible that KJA did get it from the end of Dune, I think its much more likely that he's never read the original, and paraphrasing an often quoted point made by our esteemed organization "I simply don't think he's that smart."

Simply put, a hook was cast into the water, and a balding flounder bit right in.


Unbelievable. He ties in with an obscure fact from the originals, and you think it is because of the OH.... And you think HE thinks his shite don't stink...


hey look i'm not Dune ignorant, after writing so many doors blockers, i came up with an "obscure fact" mentionned once in the original series, and again I show my total lack of understanding of he workings of Dune

And btw his shit doesn't stink, all the dung goes in his hiking recorder.


It probably smells like trail mix.
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Re: "Earl" Gurney

Postby lotek » 07 Oct 2009 10:19

i love this board I keep on googling for those references that are obvious for most people here and learn all this useless stuff!
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now I know what trail mix is :)

but considering his body that seems shaped like a marathon runner, I doubt he'd put that in his mouth...
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Re: "Earl" Gurney

Postby redbugpest » 07 Oct 2009 10:22

Freakzilla wrote:You don't find it curious that he DIDN'T mention it where he should have, in PoD, where it happened chronologically, then DOES in the next book after someone mentions it?

Do you also think it's coincidental that he DIDN'T wear The Jacket to Dragon*Con after we picked on him for it, even though he's had it on in every publicity photo from signings and appearances?

I think not.

:P


I think you assign way too much importance to how your opinions affect him and what he does. It's a way of self validation.

Go look through his blog, and you will see that he only wears it sometimes (there is a copious amount of photos there where he is not).
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Re: "Earl" Gurney

Postby Freakzilla » 07 Oct 2009 10:26

redbugpest wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:You don't find it curious that he DIDN'T mention it where he should have, in PoD, where it happened chronologically, then DOES in the next book after someone mentions it?

Do you also think it's coincidental that he DIDN'T wear The Jacket to Dragon*Con after we picked on him for it, even though he's had it on in every publicity photo from signings and appearances?

I think not.

:P


I think you assign way too much importance to how your opinions affect him and what he does. It's a way of self validation.


No, it's just fun.

Go look through his blog, and you will see that he only wears it sometimes (there is a copious amount of photos there where he is not).


That's OK, I'll take your word for it.
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Re: "Earl" Gurney

Postby Freakzilla » 07 Oct 2009 10:27

lotek wrote:but considering his body that seems shaped like a marathon runner, I doubt he'd put that in his mouth...


Are you talking about the same KJA we are? Marathon runner? Maybe if you consider walking to the fridge for a beer to be a marathon.
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Re: "Earl" Gurney

Postby rain_maker » 07 Oct 2009 10:35

redbugpest wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:You don't find it curious that he DIDN'T mention it where he should have, in PoD, where it happened chronologically, then DOES in the next book after someone mentions it?

Do you also think it's coincidental that he DIDN'T wear The Jacket to Dragon*Con after we picked on him for it, even though he's had it on in every publicity photo from signings and appearances?

I think not.

:P


I think you assign way too much importance to how your opinions affect him and what he does. It's a way of self validation.

Go look through his blog, and you will see that he only wears it sometimes (there is a copious amount of photos there where he is not).


Well that's, just ... like ... your opinion, man.

In all seriousness, why doesn't the Hack wander over here himself to tell us why "Earl Gurney" was left out of Paul of Dune and then mentioned on every second page of Winds of Dune? It seems odd that you, an adult, would be defending the literary integrity of the Hack, also an adult.

I would also like to point out, again, that simply stating something to be the case does not make it so.
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Re: "Earl" Gurney

Postby lotek » 07 Oct 2009 10:36

redbugpest wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:You don't find it curious that he DIDN'T mention it where he should have, in PoD, where it happened chronologically, then DOES in the next book after someone mentions it?

Do you also think it's coincidental that he DIDN'T wear The Jacket to Dragon*Con after we picked on him for it, even though he's had it on in every publicity photo from signings and appearances?

I think not.

:P


I think you assign way too much importance to how your opinions affect him and what he does. It's a way of self validation.

Go look through his blog, and you will see that he only wears it sometimes (there is a copious amount of photos there where he is not).


I doubt anyone here needs self validation(and we give ourselves a pat on the shoulder when we desperately need peer recognition so there you have it)
the childsh reactions from the KJA organization(i like that name it does sound silly enough for validation)shows that even if they didn't react in that way they still react...
I mean that's just the banter stuff used here to deflate a monstruously expanded ego that needs sycophants and panegerysts, needs to constently talk about "award winning" "best sellers" and name dropping.

As long as the real issues are not being tackled why bother with fair play?


EDIT

Freakzilla wrote:
lotek wrote:but considering his body that seems shaped like a marathon runner, I doubt he'd put that in his mouth...


Are you talking about the same KJA we are? Marathon runner? Maybe if you consider walking to the fridge for a beer to be a marathon.


yeah i forgot the sarcastic smiley :)
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Re: "Earl" Gurney

Postby redbugpest » 07 Oct 2009 10:42

rain_maker wrote:
redbugpest wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:You don't find it curious that he DIDN'T mention it where he should have, in PoD, where it happened chronologically, then DOES in the next book after someone mentions it?

Do you also think it's coincidental that he DIDN'T wear The Jacket to Dragon*Con after we picked on him for it, even though he's had it on in every publicity photo from signings and appearances?

I think not.

:P


I think you assign way too much importance to how your opinions affect him and what he does. It's a way of self validation.

Go look through his blog, and you will see that he only wears it sometimes (there is a copious amount of photos there where he is not).


Well that's, just ... like ... your opinion, man.

In all seriousness, why doesn't the Hack wander over here himself to tell us why "Earl Gurney" was left out of Paul of Dune and then mentioned on every second page of Winds of Dune? It seems odd that you, an adult, would be defending the literary integrity of the Hack, also an adult.

I would also like to point out, again, that simply stating something to be the case does not make it so.


Yes, it is my opinion.

Why would KJA want to wander over here at all? You would not be inclined to accept any explanation anyway.

You are right about stating something not making it so though...
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Re: "Earl" Gurney

Postby rain_maker » 07 Oct 2009 10:43

I think you assign way too much importance to how your opinions affect him and what he does. It's a way of self validation.


For the last time: stating something as a fact (i.e., I observe "X" was not present in Paul of Dune, but was then present in Winds of Dune) is NOT an opinion. It is a statement of fact based on the written evidence available.

For example: it is my opinion that you are an idiot, as this is based on my limited interactions with you and a subjective context, but it is a fact that the Hack has repeatedly contradicted both himself and Frank Herbert with the McDune crap, as it can be verified by holding certain pages of the Dune series next to certain pages of McDune.

Edit:
1. My use of the "your opinion" quote was intended to be irony, based on the source and context. It's a movie quote.
2. The Hack may want to come over here to defend himself .... himself. Hiding behind sycophants is embarrasing, or at least it would be for me. He knows we're here and he knows what our issues are, but he's too much of a limp wristed failure to come on his own .... so even bigger failures show up to do it for him.
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Re: "Earl" Gurney

Postby lotek » 07 Oct 2009 10:49

redbugpest wrote:Why would KJA want to wander over here at all? You would not be inclined to accept any explanation anyway.


if by "any explanation" you mean it literally as "the first random explanation that springs to his mind" then obviously no...

if by that you mean a logical, argumented explanation as to why there would be inconsistencies that no true reader/fan of Dune would make then he's more than welcome(even if he doesn't care_and why would he in a world where quantity wins over quality)

So your answers just beat around the bush to put it mildly.
Facts are facts, wishful thinking is just what it is.

How long has this thing been going on without him adressing once criticism?
If he was so sure of his word and his work he could deflate critics in a flash of his bright mind couldn't he. (couldn't he???)
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Re: "Earl" Gurney

Postby SandChigger » 07 Oct 2009 10:54

redbugpest wrote:Why would KJA want to wander over here at all?

Exactly, when he has "shite"-suckers like you to report back to him. :)
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Re: "Earl" Gurney

Postby redbugpest » 07 Oct 2009 10:58

rain_maker wrote:
I think you assign way too much importance to how your opinions affect him and what he does. It's a way of self validation.


For the last time: stating something as a fact (i.e., I observe "X" was not present in Paul of Dune, but was then present in Winds of Dune) is NOT an opinion. It is a statement of fact based on the written evidence available.


His getting the idea to do it from the OH is NOT a fact (Duh). I never said anything about if he did or did not use it in PoD. Another shining example of ignoring what was actually said in favor of creating controversy.


rain_maker wrote:1. My use of the "your opinion" quote was intended to be irony, based on the source and context. It's a movie quote.


You should have included the movie name in italics - or am i supposed to know every line of every move ever made?

rain_maker wrote:2. The Hack may want to come over here to defend himself .... himself. Hiding behind sycophants is embarrasing, or at least it would be for me. He knows we're here and he knows what our issues are, but he's too much of a limp wristed failure to come on his own .... so even bigger failures show up to do it for him.


Like I said, why would he want to? It would be an enormous wast of time. So, of course, because he(an adult) wont pay attention to you, you (an adult) resort to name calling....

Nanner, nanner, nanner! LOL!
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Re: "Earl" Gurney

Postby redbugpest » 07 Oct 2009 10:59

SandChigger wrote:
redbugpest wrote:Why would KJA want to wander over here at all?

Exactly, when he has "shite"-suckers like you to report back to him. :)


Oh my, Did someone call you cause I was online? :lol:
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Re: "Earl" Gurney

Postby rain_maker » 07 Oct 2009 11:21

redbugpest wrote:His getting the idea to do it from the OH is NOT a fact (Duh). I never said anything about if he did or did not use it in PoD. Another shining example of ignoring what was actually said in favor of creating controversy.

You should have included the movie name in italics - or am i supposed to know every line of every move ever made?

Like I said, why would he want to? It would be an enormous wast of time. So, of course, because he(an adult) wont pay attention to you, you (an adult) resort to name calling....

Nanner, nanner, nanner! LOL!


1. There isn't any controversy. "X" was not in Paul of Dune, but is in Winds of Dune. The lack of "X" in Paul of Dune was repeatedly noted by various OH'ers prior to Winds of Dune. You tried to insinuate that, basically, this didn't happen and as such the OH'ers pointing it out was irrelevant. You have now admitted that a major aspect of a primary character from Dune was entirely and completely omitted by the Hack in Paul of Dune. THAT is major FAIL (note: pretending to have neither confirmed or denied it after the fact is not relevant, similar to how you refuse to confirm or deny your membership in the very "Special" forces)

2. It's one of the most famous lines from a very recent cult-classic. Not knowing this quote is like not knowing the "cannot take our FREEDOM" quote from Braveheart.

3. I'm betting the Hack can't type. With all the dicta-hicking, he's never had to actually be able to write anything on his own. Additionally, we don't want him to pay attention to us, but rather, we'd prefer to not have to deal with him indirectly through his sycophants.
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Re: "Earl" Gurney

Postby SandChigger » 07 Oct 2009 11:24

redbugpest wrote:Oh my, Did someone call you cause I was online? :lol:

Wow, talk about your inflated senses of self-importance. :lol:
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