Legends of Dune violating Canon

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Eru
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Re: Legends of Dune violating Canon

Postby Eru » 11 May 2010 10:57

A Thing of Eternity wrote:The way I see it, unless it was with Ix's help there is simply no way they'd be tweaking anything. That kind of tech would almost certainly have required computer assistance to develope and fine tune, so I would guess that it was in effect before the Jihad, then when the Jihad wiped out the computers they just switched over the navigation systems. From that time forward they were almost certainly just blindly copying the original designs, I would assume (note the word assume) that the mechanics that go into folding space would be far to complex to decypher and understand for someone un-aided by a computer.

Maybe mentats would be an exception, but still, I'm guessing that very little tinkering would have taken place post-Jihad.

Just my opinion.


With all due respect, that's just silly. :wink: Of course Ix would be continually researching and modifying EVERYTHING in the Duniverse. That's what they do. And they DO develop navigation devices later on in the series which would imply a rather in-depth understanding of space-folding tech. And why wouldn't everyone, including the Ixians, employ Mentats? They are functionally a replacement for computers in the Duniverse, and with the incredible capacity and potential of the human mind, I see no reason Mentats couldn't surpass the capabilities of computers.
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Re: Legends of Dune violating Canon

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 11 May 2010 11:07

Eru wrote:
A Thing of Eternity wrote:The way I see it, unless it was with Ix's help there is simply no way they'd be tweaking anything. That kind of tech would almost certainly have required computer assistance to develope and fine tune, so I would guess that it was in effect before the Jihad, then when the Jihad wiped out the computers they just switched over the navigation systems. From that time forward they were almost certainly just blindly copying the original designs, I would assume (note the word assume) that the mechanics that go into folding space would be far to complex to decypher and understand for someone un-aided by a computer.

Maybe mentats would be an exception, but still, I'm guessing that very little tinkering would have taken place post-Jihad.

Just my opinion.


With all due respect, that's just silly. :wink: Of course Ix would be continually researching and modifying EVERYTHING in the Duniverse. That's what they do. And they DO develop navigation devices later on in the series which would imply a rather in-depth understanding of space-folding tech. And why wouldn't everyone, including the Ixians, employ Mentats? They are functionally a replacement for computers in the Duniverse, and with the incredible capacity and potential of the human mind, I see no reason Mentats couldn't surpass the capabilities of computers.


Fair enough, it was a half developed thought as I typed it, I was thinking of the guild only after first, then remembered Ix. I'm not convinced the technology would have changed in any substantial way though.
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Re: Legends of Dune violating Canon

Postby chanilover » 11 May 2010 11:08

SandChigger wrote:
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Oooh ... Latin! :romance-heartsthree: Sling some more at us! The other lawyers around here are stingy with it. :snooty:

:P


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Re: Legends of Dune violating Canon

Postby Freakzilla » 11 May 2010 11:14

The INM was a joint Ixian-Guild project.
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Re: Legends of Dune violating Canon

Postby chanilover » 11 May 2010 11:22

Freakzilla wrote:The INM was a joint Ixian-Guild project.


What's an INM?
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Re: Legends of Dune violating Canon

Postby MrFlibble » 11 May 2010 11:43

Ixian Navigation Machine
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Re: Legends of Dune violating Canon

Postby Freakzilla » 11 May 2010 11:47

chanilover wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:The INM was a joint Ixian-Guild project.


What's an INM?


Abbreviations

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Re: Legends of Dune violating Canon

Postby chanilover » 11 May 2010 11:51

:D Time for a re-read!
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Re: Legends of Dune violating Canon

Postby inhuien » 11 May 2010 11:52

Eru wrote:And why wouldn't everyone, including the Ixians, employ Mentats? They are functionally a replacement for computers in the Duniverse, and with the incredible capacity and potential of the human mind, I see no reason Mentats couldn't surpass the capabilities of computers.

But is it mentioned. That's all I was wondering.
Last edited by inhuien on 11 May 2010 11:55, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Legends of Dune violating Canon

Postby Freakzilla » 11 May 2010 11:55

inhuien wrote:
Eru wrote:
A Thing of Eternity wrote:And why wouldn't everyone, including the Ixians, employ Mentats? They are functionally a replacement for computers in the Duniverse, and with the incredible capacity and potential of the human mind, I see no reason Mentats couldn't surpass the capabilities of computers.

But is it mentioned. That's all I was wondering.


I can think of only like four Ixians appearing in the books, Bronso, Malky, Hwi and the Inquisitors. None were mentats that I remember.

Besides, mentats were illegal durring Leto II's reign.
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Re: Legends of Dune violating Canon

Postby Eru » 11 May 2010 13:06

Freakzilla wrote:
inhuien wrote:
Eru wrote:
A Thing of Eternity wrote:And why wouldn't everyone, including the Ixians, employ Mentats? They are functionally a replacement for computers in the Duniverse, and with the incredible capacity and potential of the human mind, I see no reason Mentats couldn't surpass the capabilities of computers.

But is it mentioned. That's all I was wondering.


I can think of only like four Ixians appearing in the books, Bronso, Malky, Hwi and the Inquisitors. None were mentats that I remember.

Besides, mentats were illegal durring Leto II's reign.

So? The Bene Gesserit employed Mentats during Leto's reign. At least one of Leto's Duncans was a Mentat. There were still Mentats during that period.

*edit* Any of Leto's Duncans being mentats is from DE isn't it?
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Re: Legends of Dune violating Canon

Postby Freakzilla » 11 May 2010 13:47

Eru wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:
inhuien wrote:
Eru wrote:
A Thing of Eternity wrote:And why wouldn't everyone, including the Ixians, employ Mentats? They are functionally a replacement for computers in the Duniverse, and with the incredible capacity and potential of the human mind, I see no reason Mentats couldn't surpass the capabilities of computers.

But is it mentioned. That's all I was wondering.


I can think of only like four Ixians appearing in the books, Bronso, Malky, Hwi and the Inquisitors. None were mentats that I remember.

Besides, mentats were illegal durring Leto II's reign.

So? The Bene Gesserit employed Mentats during Leto's reign.


Yeah, Anteac who tried like hell to hide it, but Leto had a special mission for her. Even though he talked of destroying them, I think Leto had some tollerance for the BG.

At least one of Leto's Duncans was a Mentat. There were still Mentats during that period.

*edit* Any of Leto's Duncans being mentats is from DE isn't it?


Yeah. Leto insisted on them being the unaltered original in GEoD and left him with the Fish Speakers for a while until they were sure.
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Re: Legends of Dune violating Canon

Postby Eru » 11 May 2010 15:42

I'm still not convinced that Mentats wouldn't be commonly utilized during Leto's reign, albeit in a clandestine fashion. Prohibition of a practice doesn't always lead to it's decline :wink:
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Re: Legends of Dune violating Canon

Postby Freakzilla » 11 May 2010 15:45

Plus, he tolerated the Ixians because of the illegal toys they made for him and no-ships were part of his plan. They probably could get away with using computers openly on their homeworlds.
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Re: Legends of Dune violating Canon

Postby Eru » 11 May 2010 15:52

True. The INM is really just a computer, right?
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Re: Legends of Dune violating Canon

Postby Freakzilla » 11 May 2010 16:03

Eru wrote:True. The INM is really just a computer, right?


I assumed so. FH never gives details about it. I like to think it wasn't AI,though. However it's hard to imagine it being able to duplicate the function of a Navigator without AI.
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Re: Legends of Dune violating Canon

Postby Lionel Horsepackage » 11 May 2010 16:21

Freakzilla wrote:Plus, he tolerated the Ixians because of the illegal toys they made for him and no-ships were part of his plan. They probably could get away with using computers openly on their homeworlds.

Precisely. Their very existence and their technology is a great example of the "Unexpected Hanging Paradox" (i.e.,the day of the hanging will be a surprise, so it cannot happen at all, so therefore it will be a surprise). Leto can't see the No-Room because it's a No-Room, and he can't see those, for whatever technological reasons there are. But he also wasn't able to see the construction of the No-Room, which, presumably, he should have been able to see.

As in, at some point, the a No-Room is its components, which are not a No-Room, and thus, not hidden from prescience, so Leto should have been able to see those. Yet, somehow, he did not. I postulate that he did not because this was an independent action on his part.
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Re: Legends of Dune violating Canon

Postby Freakzilla » 11 May 2010 16:24

Lionel Horsepackage wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:Plus, he tolerated the Ixians because of the illegal toys they made for him and no-ships were part of his plan. They probably could get away with using computers openly on their homeworlds.

Precisely. Their very existence and their technology is a great example of the "Unexpected Hanging Paradox" (i.e.,the day of the hanging will be a surprise, so it cannot happen at all, so therefore it will be a surprise). Leto can't see the No-Room because it's a No-Room, and he can't see those, for whatever technological reasons there are. But he also wasn't able to see the construction of the No-Room, which, presumably, he should have been able to see.

As in, at some point, the a No-Room is its components, which are not a No-Room, and thus, not hidden from prescience, so Leto should have been able to see those. Yet, somehow, he did not. I postulate that he did not because this was an independent action on his part.


The Ixians built the first no-field for him (Dar-es-balat). :wink:
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Re: Legends of Dune violating Canon

Postby SadisticCynic » 11 May 2010 18:53

Further to space-folding technology; I recall something in the later books to the effect that people knew and used Holtzmann's equations (which defined a unifying theory of physics) but simply didn't understand them. So I wonder what not understanding them means. To use them they must know what the different variables and constants refer to, so perhaps they simply didn't have a physical interpretation for them. In any case they could still tinker with different numbers etc...
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Re: Legends of Dune violating Canon

Postby merkin muffley » 11 May 2010 21:11

Lionel Horsepackage wrote: Leto can't see the No-Room because it's a No-Room, and he can't see those, for whatever technological reasons there are. But he also wasn't able to see the construction of the No-Room, which, presumably, he should have been able to see.

As in, at some point, the a No-Room is its components, which are not a No-Room, and thus, not hidden from prescience, so Leto should have been able to see those. Yet, somehow, he did not. I postulate that he did not because this was an independent action on his part.


I'm lost. Are you saying that Leto should have been able to detect the No-Room because of the Room-ness of every other thing and event, including the construction of the No-Room itself? Leto needs Ixian devices to see things and his prescience isn't omnipotent.

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Re: Legends of Dune violating Canon

Postby Freakzilla » 11 May 2010 21:22

merkin muffley wrote:
Lionel Horsepackage wrote: Leto can't see the No-Room because it's a No-Room, and he can't see those, for whatever technological reasons there are. But he also wasn't able to see the construction of the No-Room, which, presumably, he should have been able to see.

As in, at some point, the a No-Room is its components, which are not a No-Room, and thus, not hidden from prescience, so Leto should have been able to see those. Yet, somehow, he did not. I postulate that he did not because this was an independent action on his part.


I'm lost. Are you saying that Leto should have been able to detect the No-Room because of the Room-ness of every other thing and event, including the construction of the No-Room itself? Leto needs Ixian devices to see things and his prescience isn't omnipotent.

Why do I feel like I have no idea what I'm talking about, and my brain hurts...



Leto did notice when things disappeared into no-fields and said as much. Also, the INM was built inside a no-field.
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Re: Legends of Dune violating Canon

Postby grandmastercrafter » 07 Sep 2010 10:47

SandChigger wrote:
Lionel Horsepackage wrote:cum grano salis

Oooh ... Latin! :romance-heartsthree: Sling some more at us! The other lawyers around here are stingy with it. :snooty:

:P


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Re: Legends of Dune violating Canon

Postby lotek » 07 Sep 2010 10:50

someone was talking about seamen on telly last night :)
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Re: Legends of Dune violating Canon

Postby SandChigger » 07 Sep 2010 16:34

I drove through Seaman just earlier today... :shifty:

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Re: Legends of Dune violating Canon

Postby lotek » 07 Sep 2010 17:11

:lol:
man I hope you have good windscreen wipers :roll:
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