Bruce Herbert: Probable DUNE Heir?

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Omphalos
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Re: Bruce Herbert: Probable DUNE Heir?

Postby Omphalos » 24 Oct 2011 21:05

Was he totally on the outs with his dad, or did they talk? I'm fascinated to hear if you know about the relationship.

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Re: Bruce Herbert: Probable DUNE Heir?

Postby mwisconsin » 24 Oct 2011 21:35

Omphalos wrote:Was he totally on the outs with his dad, or did they talk? I'm fascinated to hear if you know about the relationship.


As far as I know, they didn't speak at all, at least when I knew him. He actually only mentioned that he was Frank's son in passing, and seemed sort of embarrassed by it.

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Re: Bruce Herbert: Probable DUNE Heir?

Postby JustSomeGuy » 25 Oct 2011 01:10

I would also like to hear more. Anything of interest that you can recall. He mentioned that he was "the estranged son of Frank Herbert"?
I bring nothing to the table.

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Re: Bruce Herbert: Probable DUNE Heir?

Postby mwisconsin » 25 Oct 2011 01:49

JustSomeGuy wrote:I would also like to hear more. Anything of interest that you can recall. He mentioned that he was "the estranged son of Frank Herbert"?


Yes, Bruce was gay, and when he came out to his father, Frank kicked him out of the house and didn't speak to him again.

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Re: Bruce Herbert: Probable DUNE Heir?

Postby Omphalos » 25 Oct 2011 02:09

That is sad. :cry:

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Re: Bruce Herbert: Probable DUNE Heir?

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 25 Oct 2011 02:30

Well that certainly adds to my old hunch that FH had a pretty decent amount of homophobe in him, which was pretty much impossible to back up with his writing because as much as he wrote that seemed anti-gay he seemed to also write things that seemed pro-gay, making it hard to tell what his feelings were.

Oh well, I don't have to like him, just his writing. :wink: Plus he's dead, so it's really a moot point whether I like him as a person or not! :D
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Re: Bruce Herbert: Probable DUNE Heir?

Postby Freakzilla » 25 Oct 2011 07:02

A Thing of Eternity wrote:Well that certainly adds to my old hunch that FH had a pretty decent amount of homophobe in him, which was pretty much impossible to back up with his writing because as much as he wrote that seemed anti-gay he seemed to also write things that seemed pro-gay, making it hard to tell what his feelings were.


I think he might have been trying to work out his own feelings about it by writing those scenes.

A Thing of Eternity wrote:Oh well, I don't have to like him, just his writing. :wink: Plus he's dead, so it's really a moot point whether I like him as a person or not! :D


I've never had much problem separating the artist and the person, in any case.
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Re: Bruce Herbert: Probable DUNE Heir?

Postby SandRider » 25 Oct 2011 13:56

while I won't discount the idea that Frank "disowned" Bruce in part because of his sexuality,
we don't have any proof that that was the sole reason ... or even the reason at all,
this whole idea starts and ends with Brian Version of Reality ....

Brian pretty much estranged himself ... Bruce could have done similar ....

not saying that Frank wasn't a homophobe, atleast concerning his own son,
just saying we still don't have enough information to form a complete judgement;
it could have very well went like:
Bruce: Dad, I'm gay.
Frank: Get the fuck out of my house, you little faggot !
Brian: Hey, Dad, I wrote a bookie-thing, just like you ! It's about funny stuff that happened in the office ...
Frank: My head hurts. Shut up, Byron !!
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Re: Bruce Herbert: Probable DUNE Heir?

Postby Omphalos » 25 Oct 2011 14:19

SandRider wrote:Bruce: Dad, I'm gay.
Frank: Get the fuck out of my house, you little faggot !


Almost certainly a bit more to it than that. A lack of acceptance leads to general strife that can add up and ruin a relationship. Not saying that FH's lack of understanding about his son's sexuality wasn't the cause, but there was probably a lot more to it than that. I know you know that. I'm not being literal here. Just sayin'.

SandRider wrote:Brian: Hey, Dad, I wrote a bookie-thing, just like you ! It's about funny stuff that happened in the office ...
Frank: My head hurts. Shut up, Byron !![/i]


Now this one I buy completely.

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Re: Bruce Herbert: Probable DUNE Heir?

Postby lotek » 25 Oct 2011 17:56

Freakzilla wrote:I've never had much problem separating the artist and the person, in any case.


we know of a case where both entities are douchebags ^^
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Re: Bruce Herbert: Probable DUNE Heir?

Postby lotek » 25 Oct 2011 17:58

SandRider wrote:Brian: Hey, Dad, I wrote a bookie-thing, just like you ! It's about funny stuff that happened in the office ...
Frank: My head hurts. Shut up, Byron !!


and I might add
Frank : damn why wasn't this one gay too ?
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Re: Bruce Herbert: Probable DUNE Heir?

Postby SandRider » 25 Oct 2011 19:45

Freakzilla wrote:.

A Thing of Eternity wrote:Oh well, I don't have to like him, just his writing. :wink: Plus he's dead, so it's really a moot point whether I like him as a person or not! :D


I've never had much problem separating the artist and the person, in any case.



if a novel is just a novel, entertainment & so forth, I might agree;
but if the novel is to be taken as literature, as serious art,
then I think some familiarity with the author's own true beliefs & ideals are essential
to understanding the entire intended message of the work (if the work is an amplification
of those ideals, or a counter-point, or satire, &etc.)

I'd say Frank's personal attitudes towards homosexuality (both in a broad, general sense, and the specific case of family)
would be worth exploring, inasmuch as any of his other beliefs (Spinrad: "Knowing Frank's political philosophy, I once asked
him how he could keep writing this royalist stuff."
) ....
................ I exist only to amuse myself ................
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how to fully interact with people.
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Re: Bruce Herbert: Probable DUNE Heir?

Postby Crizius » 09 Dec 2011 13:31

Maybe he would be good wrriter, atleast better than his Brother, buthe's dead, Jim, so will never know...
But I doubt it. Sure Brian wrote one or two good thing's about his brother, but that's what he is good at. At newer edition's of Dune Brian wrote nice stuff about his dad, and you (that is Dune fan who hates McDune) may thought that Brian understand's and respect's work of his dad and you decidet to give it a try and read Dune:House Atreides and your reaction probably was

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SO yeah, I am pretty sure same would Be with Bruce...
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Re: Bruce Herbert: Probable DUNE Heir?

Postby Freakzilla » 09 Dec 2011 13:38

Crizius wrote:He's dead, Jim.


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Re: Bruce Herbert: Probable DUNE Heir?

Postby Freakzilla » 09 Dec 2011 13:41

SandRider wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:.

A Thing of Eternity wrote:Oh well, I don't have to like him, just his writing. :wink: Plus he's dead, so it's really a moot point whether I like him as a person or not! :D


I've never had much problem separating the artist and the person, in any case.



if a novel is just a novel, entertainment & so forth, I might agree;
but if the novel is to be taken as literature, as serious art,
then I think some familiarity with the author's own true beliefs & ideals are essential
to understanding the entire intended message of the work (if the work is an amplification
of those ideals, or a counter-point, or satire, &etc.)

I'd say Frank's personal attitudes towards homosexuality (both in a broad, general sense, and the specific case of family)
would be worth exploring, inasmuch as any of his other beliefs (Spinrad: "Knowing Frank's political philosophy, I once asked
him how he could keep writing this royalist stuff."
) ....


True, but I read all the Dune books before I learned anything about FH himself. Whatever he did in his personal life isn't much going to affect my appreciation of his books.

I thought Van Gogh's paintings were pretty before I found out he cut off his ear and mailed it to a hooker and I still think they are.

However, learning that Monet was going blind did change the way I looked at his latter paintings but it didn't lessen my appreciation for them.
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Re: Bruce Herbert: Probable DUNE Heir?

Postby Freakzilla » 09 Dec 2011 14:33

Understanding FH the man a little better has added to my understanding of why he wrote certain things, like Duncan being a homophobe, but it doesn't change my understanding of the story.
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Re: Bruce Herbert: Probable DUNE Heir?

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 09 Dec 2011 17:00

I definitely don't mean who FH was isn't important to understanding the writing, I'm just saying that finding out about his flaws hasn't hurt my appreciate of Dune at all.

Terry Goodkind is an example of the opposite. I grew tired of his books before I found out he was an egomaniac to a degree to put even KJA to shame, or that he's a complete nut. Learning about Goodkind's flaws made me like his work even less.

FH in my opinion understood that his homophobia was a flaw - when I read GEoD knowing this about FH I think I see much of it as a representation of his struggle with this (did he knoew Bruce was gay when he wrote GEoD? Curious about that). We have Duncan being homophobic, but Leto seems to be very much defending homosexuality (though in some ways that aren't correct and are in their own way offensive - but STILL, to me this shows FH was at least trying to understand the opposite of his personal view).
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Re: Bruce Herbert: Probable DUNE Heir?

Postby Freakzilla » 09 Dec 2011 17:02

A Thing of Eternity wrote:I definitely don't mean who FH was isn't important to understanding the writing, I'm just saying that finding out about his flaws hasn't hurt my appreciate of Dune at all.


That's what I was trying to say, too.

A Thing of Eternity wrote:FH in my opinion understood that his homophobia was a flaw - when I read GEoD knowing this about FH I think I see much of it as a representation of his struggle with this (did he knoew Bruce was gay when he wrote GEoD? Curious about that). We have Duncan being homophobic, but Leto seems to be very much defending homosexuality (though in some ways that aren't correct and are in their own way offensive - but STILL, to me this shows FH was at least trying to understand the opposite of his personal view).


I believe Moneo defends them, but maybe it was both.
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Re: Bruce Herbert: Probable DUNE Heir?

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 09 Dec 2011 18:30

Yes I figured you and I were on the same page about that bit.

I think Leto does as well, talking about ancient gay soldiers... but then he goes on about gay people being inherantly suicidal because they're "genetically suicidal"...
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Re: Bruce Herbert: Probable DUNE Heir?

Postby Freakzilla » 09 Dec 2011 18:32

That's right, about how they were used throughout history as shock troops.
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Re: Bruce Herbert: Probable DUNE Heir?

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 09 Dec 2011 18:53

So FH was at least to some extent trying to show the other side of the issue... in a fucked up way, but still.
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Re: Bruce Herbert: Probable DUNE Heir?

Postby inhuien » 14 Dec 2011 15:17

A Thing of Eternity wrote:Yes I figured you and I were on the same page about that bit.

I think Leto does as well, talking about ancient gay soldiers... but then he goes on about gay people being inherantly suicidal because they're "genetically suicidal"...
Genetically suicidal ala what's his names The Selfish Gene, not that they were genetically predisposed to committing suicide. But I've been travelling since four in the morning and am a little sleepy so it a poss I'm misled. Anyone got a quote of the passage in question.
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Re: Bruce Herbert: Probable DUNE Heir?

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 14 Dec 2011 16:28

inhuien wrote:
A Thing of Eternity wrote:Yes I figured you and I were on the same page about that bit.

I think Leto does as well, talking about ancient gay soldiers... but then he goes on about gay people being inherantly suicidal because they're "genetically suicidal"...
Genetically suicidal ala what's his names The Selfish Gene, not that they were genetically predisposed to committing suicide. But I've been travelling since four in the morning and am a little sleepy so it a poss I'm misled. Anyone got a quote of the passage in question.


I know what he meant about genetically suicidal, goofy way to put it but whatever, my issue is that in GEoD Leto makes it out that this makes them also less attached to their own lives - which is wrong obviously.

I don't have the quote right now though.
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Re: Bruce Herbert: Probable DUNE Heir?

Postby Freakzilla » 14 Dec 2011 16:35

"Perverts don't perpetuate!"
Moneo spoke in a soothing tone, but his words shook Idaho. "I will tell you this
only once. Homosexuals have been among the best warriors in our history, the
berserkers of last resort. They were among our best priests and priestesses.
Celibacy was no accident in religions. It is also no accident that adolescents
make the best soldiers."
"That's perversion!"
"Quite right. Military commanders have known about the perverted displacement of
sex into pain for thousands upon thousands of centuries."
"Is that what the Great Lord Leto's doing?"
Still mild, Moneo said: "Violence requires that you inflict pain and suffer it.
How much more manageable a military force driven to this by its deepest
urgings."

...

Moneo nodded. "The homosexual, latent or otherwise, who maintains that condition
for reasons which could be called purely psychological, tends to indulge in
pain-causing behavior-seeking it for himself and inflicting it upon others. Lord
Leto says this goes back to the testing behavior in the prehistoric pack."

...

"Ohhh, he says that when it breaks out of the adolescent homosexual restraints,
the male army is essentially rapist. Rape is often murderous and that's not
survival behavior."
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Re: Bruce Herbert: Probable DUNE Heir?

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 14 Dec 2011 16:41

:lol: Already, those are pretty harsh as well - maybe I'm remembering it wrong but I remember a passage where it's said that their use as berzerkers has to do with their inherant suicidal tendancies, and is related to how they do not reproduce.
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