Mentats of Dune

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Re: Mentats of Dune

Postby lotek » 28 Apr 2014 04:00

Doesn't matter what he does, on the contrary...
Doing what he does best, he only digs himself deeper.
Spice is the worm's gonads.

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Re: Mentats of Dune

Postby SandRider » 11 May 2014 09:21

>> Company That Threatened to Sue Negative Reviewer Just Lost Its Amazon Account:

http://www.nationaljournal.com/tech/com ... t-20140509
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Re: Mentats of Dune

Postby lotek » 12 May 2014 04:44

There's still hope then.
Spice is the worm's gonads.

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Re: Mentats of Dune

Postby Sardaukar Capt » 05 Oct 2014 18:38

I occasionally get a perverse desire to see how the Hacks finish off their "Legends" and "Schools" storylines. I've read BJ and have tried 3 times to finish Machine Crud but just haven't been able to slog through in order to read Battle for Cornhole. I think I may try it again and if my mind is still intact, I may tackle Shitterhood and Manpons of Dune. I will never touch the interquels nor the "sequals" to Chapterhouse I call Cunters and Sandturds. Those are just pure blasphemy.
The name Atreides was also consciously chosen. It is the family name of Agamemnon. Says Herbert, "I wanted a sense of monumental aristocracy, but with tragedy hanging over them--and in our culture, Agamemnon personifies that."
Frank Herbert by Tim O'Reilly
http://tim.oreilly.com/herbert/

Ghanima said. "We Atreides go back to Agamemnon..."
Distracted, Irulan asked: "Who's Agamemnon?"

Children of Dune by Frank Herbert

WTF? A BG forgets the Titans?! :)

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Re: Mentats of Dune

Postby Ampoliros » 05 Oct 2014 21:36

honestly I would reiterate my point that the new trilogy is incompatible with the original legends trilogy, and if you hated the Legends trilogy the new books are even worse.

I'll sum it up for you.

Kevin J Anderson re-explains his own origin of the Dune universe in a manner which will require complete retconning in order to fall in line with the original books, and in some cases even with his own. Not one single person acts in a rational or intelligent manner, ever, for even a second, and they don't have too, because there are no consequences for anything.

The protagonists are ultra because Kevin J Anderson.

Here's the intro to my Mentats review:

"Reading this book is like going on a commando raid at night, cutting your way through a forest with flamethrowers and light-enhancing goggles. And then, when you get to your destination, using the voice to force the people who came with you to do what they willingly came with you to do."
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Re: Mentats of Dune

Postby Sardaukar Capt » 06 Oct 2014 00:49

Now I'm more intrigued to see how bad Legends & Schools turns out. :crazy:
The name Atreides was also consciously chosen. It is the family name of Agamemnon. Says Herbert, "I wanted a sense of monumental aristocracy, but with tragedy hanging over them--and in our culture, Agamemnon personifies that."
Frank Herbert by Tim O'Reilly
http://tim.oreilly.com/herbert/

Ghanima said. "We Atreides go back to Agamemnon..."
Distracted, Irulan asked: "Who's Agamemnon?"

Children of Dune by Frank Herbert

WTF? A BG forgets the Titans?! :)

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lotek
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Re: Mentats of Dune

Postby lotek » 06 Oct 2014 08:46

I called it quits after the machine crusade bullcrap, I just knew it was not worth it.
I mean, when someone consistently produces worse and worse stuff, the odds of a miracle go down the drain as does his consistency.
Spice is the worm's gonads.

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Re: Mentats of Dune

Postby Sardaukar Capt » 06 Oct 2014 11:58

I remember having such high hopes when House Atreides was announced and I bought the hardcover the day it came out. How quickly my hopes and dreams were crushed! :lol: I finished the House series just to see how they dovetailed some of their plot points into the real Dune book. We all know how well that turned out.

I gave Butlerian Jihad a chance when it launched thinking it is little more than a vague reference in the Dune Chronicles so they don't have to contrive a plot that is interlinked as close to the source material as the House books and they might actually have a better shot at telling a good story. Wrong again!! It is really telling that they had all this freedom to come up with something amazing and they failed in every way, shape, and form. And instead apparently used these "Legends" books as nothing more than the plot justification for their own twisted magnum opus (in their mind) in Dune 7. Haven't read Cunters and Sandturds and I don't plan to.

Still I have an itch to finish out Machine Crud and Battle of Cornhole at least just to see how they wrap up this turd of a story after how wooden, shallow, and contrived Butlerian Jihad turned out to be.

And one day I may actually make it to Manpons of Dune.
The name Atreides was also consciously chosen. It is the family name of Agamemnon. Says Herbert, "I wanted a sense of monumental aristocracy, but with tragedy hanging over them--and in our culture, Agamemnon personifies that."
Frank Herbert by Tim O'Reilly
http://tim.oreilly.com/herbert/

Ghanima said. "We Atreides go back to Agamemnon..."
Distracted, Irulan asked: "Who's Agamemnon?"

Children of Dune by Frank Herbert

WTF? A BG forgets the Titans?! :)

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Re: Mentats of Dune

Postby Freakzilla » 06 Oct 2014 12:22

I made through Hunters up to the point where Marty and Daniel were revealed to be their cross-dressing robots from TBJ. :hand:
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Re: Mentats of Dune

Postby Sardaukar Capt » 06 Oct 2014 13:54

That's the very reason I'll never give their "Dune 7" a try because I'll never believe that was Frank's idea. For me what they did in writing at direct sequel the Chapterhouse and the way they did it and the lies about the notes and outline is a 1000x worse than butchering the Butlerian Jihad and other pre-Dune periods.
The name Atreides was also consciously chosen. It is the family name of Agamemnon. Says Herbert, "I wanted a sense of monumental aristocracy, but with tragedy hanging over them--and in our culture, Agamemnon personifies that."
Frank Herbert by Tim O'Reilly
http://tim.oreilly.com/herbert/

Ghanima said. "We Atreides go back to Agamemnon..."
Distracted, Irulan asked: "Who's Agamemnon?"

Children of Dune by Frank Herbert

WTF? A BG forgets the Titans?! :)

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Re: Mentats of Dune

Postby Ampoliros » 06 Oct 2014 14:34

well the Marty/Daniel 're-reveal' is an essential nail in the 'we used the notes' bullshit.

Having read KJA's Star Wars books, as soon as it was announced he was doing the House series my campaign against them started.

any chance I might have given them on their own merit disappeared when the BG turned invisible and giggled like schoolgirls.

Where are you Bear Meteor!?!?!!
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Re: Mentats of Dune

Postby georgiedenbro » 06 Oct 2014 14:48

Ampoliros wrote:well the Marty/Daniel 're-reveal' is an essential nail in the 'we used the notes' bullshit.

Having read KJA's Star Wars books, as soon as it was announced he was doing the House series my campaign against them started.

any chance I might have given them on their own merit disappeared when the BG turned invisible and giggled like schoolgirls.

Where are you Bear Meteor!?!?!!


I chose to give the House books the benefit of the doubt when they came out. I honestly think I suppressed the memory of the invisibility thing as it was too ridiculous to keep in my head. That being said, my problem with the prequels was always the quality of the writing and not with inconsistencies. I thought the House books were 'meh', but the Jihad books were disgusting garbage. If KJA had chosen to ignore the style and philosophy behind Frank's books and had written wonderful, thoughtful books of his own with the name Dune on them I'd have been fine with that. Just the fact of writing in someone else's universe and not fact-checking perfectly wouldn't be that big a deal to me, although it would be a bit annoying. It's that the books are so bad and are called Dune, and that KJA insists on saying that what he wrote was Frank's ideas - this is the problem. And the lies....
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Re: Mentats of Dune

Postby Ampoliros » 06 Oct 2014 16:15

its a cyclical thing, KJA gets to write in Dune, Dune is great, KJA can say he's written in the greatest sci-fi series there is, KJA is one of the greatest sci-fi authors, on par with Frank Herbert.

Also, Dune sells. therefore KJA is a bestselling author.
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Re: Mentats of Dune

Postby Sardaukar Capt » 06 Oct 2014 17:11

Ampoliros wrote:well the Marty/Daniel 're-reveal' is an essential nail in the 'we used the notes' bullshit.

Having read KJA's Star Wars books, as soon as it was announced he was doing the House series my campaign against them started.

any chance I might have given them on their own merit disappeared when the BG turned invisible and giggled like schoolgirls.

Where are you Bear Meteor!?!?!!


Didn't Keith and Bo Bo reveal themselves to be liars about the "Dune 7 Outline & Notes" when someone got them to admit in a Q&A or press conference that bastard child of Lore & Dr Mengele was actually completely their own invention? That is another reason I'll never read Cunters and Sandturds.

Yeah the BG turning into Jedi Knights in that scene pretty much ruined the whole House series for me. I half expected them to tell Rabban "This isn't the no-ship you are looking for". There were tidbits of the series that were interesting but that BG scene and then when they raped Heretics for the No-Ship and Axlotl Tanks plot devices because they can't think of anything original themselves disgusted me. What makes it even worse is anyone reading Dune for the first time who starts out with the House series before going into Frank's books is going to wonder why it takes 5000 years for those technologies to show up again. They served ZERO plot purpose as a back story to Dune. All it does in my mind is plant the seed in new readers heads that tehkja and Bo Bo created those bits of story tech.
The name Atreides was also consciously chosen. It is the family name of Agamemnon. Says Herbert, "I wanted a sense of monumental aristocracy, but with tragedy hanging over them--and in our culture, Agamemnon personifies that."
Frank Herbert by Tim O'Reilly
http://tim.oreilly.com/herbert/

Ghanima said. "We Atreides go back to Agamemnon..."
Distracted, Irulan asked: "Who's Agamemnon?"

Children of Dune by Frank Herbert

WTF? A BG forgets the Titans?! :)

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Re: Mentats of Dune

Postby georgiedenbro » 06 Oct 2014 17:57

Sardaukar Capt wrote:Didn't Keith and Bo Bo reveal themselves to be liars about the "Dune 7 Outline & Notes" when someone got them to admit in a Q&A or press conference that bastard child of Lore & Dr Mengele was actually completely their own invention? That is another reason I'll never read Cunters and Sandturds.


To be fair, what they admitted was that they created those two characters, but that the idea of the threat in Dune 7 coming back from the BJ was Frank's. All they claim they did was flesh it out and give names and personas to the blanks Frank left. This isn't an inconsistency in itself; the reason it's clearly a lie is because knowing what we know about Frank's politics and themes in the series (as KJA does not) we can clearly see that the events in Dune 7 do not tell the same thematic story that the previous 6 books do. That's good enough for me, but it's not hard proof.

Yeah the BG turning into Jedi Knights in that scene pretty much ruined the whole House series for me. I half expected them to tell Rabban "This isn't the no-ship you are looking for". There were tidbits of the series that were interesting but that BG scene and then when they raped Heretics for the No-Ship and Axlotl Tanks plot devices because they can't think of anything original themselves disgusted me. What makes it even worse is anyone reading Dune for the first time who starts out with the House series before going into Frank's books is going to wonder why it takes 5000 years for those technologies to show up again. They served ZERO plot purpose as a back story to Dune. All it does in my mind is plant the seed in new readers heads that tehkja and Bo Bo created those bits of story tech.


The only reason I finished reading the Jihad trilogy - and Christ it was hard to force myself to go on past the first 100 pages of the first book - was that I REALLY needed to know what ignited the Atreides/Harkonnen feud. I thought it would all be worth it in the end to learn the secret, that my effort in plowing through literary manure would be vindicated. The result was more disappointing to me than ten Star Wars Ep 1's could be.

:tissue2:
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Re: Mentats of Dune

Postby Ampoliros » 06 Oct 2014 19:53

Actually, Frank never suggested the outside threat as far back as the Jihad, it had its origins in the Scattering.

IIRC, please correct me if I'm wrong on that.
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Re: Mentats of Dune

Postby georgiedenbro » 06 Oct 2014 23:01

Ampoliros wrote:Actually, Frank never suggested the outside threat as far back as the Jihad, it had its origins in the Scattering.

IIRC, please correct me if I'm wrong on that.


I must admit I'm not up for sifting through interviews on T(A)U at the moment to look for it, but I thought I remembered them saying it went all the way back to the Jihad, which is what "made" them have to write the prequels in order to be able to write Dune 7. I believe this is one of the chief reasons we call BS on them, since it is a convenient justification for why writing their trash prequels was only in order to serve Frank's wishes of having Dune 7 made, or some shit. I guess I'll never know whether Frank really did intend it to go back to the Jihad or Scattering, since KJA insists it's from the 'notes.'

Freak...do you remember where that quote might be?
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Re: Mentats of Dune

Postby Sardaukar Capt » 06 Oct 2014 23:41

Funny how they felt the need to tell the Legends stories to lay the groundwork for (their) Frank's vision of Dune 7, but by Brian's own recollection he witnessed his father re-reading and highlighting Heretics in preparation for writing Dune 7 before he died, he wasn't researching Heretics to write a Butlerian Jihad book nor did he ever indicate the need for one before Dune 7.

I usually re-read all 6 (real) Dune books every 4 or 5 years. I re-read GEoD earlier in the year and plan to read Heretics and Chapterhouse back to back soon, this time on the Kindle, and I'm going to try to remember to highlight and put in notes for things like hints about what is chasing people from the Scattering. And other tidbits the Hacks have stolen from Frank's book to try and repurpose as their own plot devices.
The name Atreides was also consciously chosen. It is the family name of Agamemnon. Says Herbert, "I wanted a sense of monumental aristocracy, but with tragedy hanging over them--and in our culture, Agamemnon personifies that."
Frank Herbert by Tim O'Reilly
http://tim.oreilly.com/herbert/

Ghanima said. "We Atreides go back to Agamemnon..."
Distracted, Irulan asked: "Who's Agamemnon?"

Children of Dune by Frank Herbert

WTF? A BG forgets the Titans?! :)

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Re: Mentats of Dune

Postby Freakzilla » 07 Oct 2014 07:26

In Dreamer of Dune, BH sounds like he clearly understands the Butlerian Jihad.

The Butlerian Jihad of Dune’s history was a movement against machines, preventing them from ever
exerting domination over men. This touched upon a natural fear humans have of machines. In recent years, this
apprehension has focused largely upon computers, upon a fear that computers can be loaded with artificial
consciousness and intelligence that will be superior to humans in important respects, eventually rele-gating men
to subservient status.
The distrust of machines is actually, perhaps, a fear men tend to have of anything they do not understand—
of things that are arcane and unpredictable from their perspective.
The roots of the Butlerian Jihad went back to individuals my parents knew, to my mother’s beloved
grandfather Cooper Landis and to our family friend Ralph Slattery, both of whom abhorred machines. Whenever
Mom had trouble with a machine, she invoked Cooper’s invective, well-known in our household: “Oh!
The mindless malignancy of mechanical devices!”
...

At Swedish Hospital, Dad was at first quite pale, but as days passed and he received care the color returned
to his features and he put on a few pounds. Like his old self, he monitored his vital signs constantly, and the
medical personnel were quite open with him about everything. The signs were good, especially considering his
age and what he had been through. Dad spoke of how well the first round of treatments had gone in Wisconsin,
and of how much he looked forward to returning to work on “Dune 7.” The new book was barely under way
when he had to leave it. He said we might work on a Dune book together one day—perhaps a Dune “prequel”
idea I had suggested to him, set in the mythical time of the Butlerian Jihad. He said my writing had come a long
way.


The only mention of an outside threat in the novels themselves comes from Children of Dune:

Duncan felt his mentat awareness coruscate as it shot through memory data of
itself, completely impervious to the passage of time. Arriving at the conviction
that House Corrino would not risk an illegal atomic attack, he did this in
flash-computation, the main decisional pathway, but he was perfectly aware of
the elements which went into this conviction: The Imperium commanded as many
nuclear and allied weapons as all the Great Houses combined. At least half the
Great Houses would react without thinking if House Corrino broke the Convention.
The Atreides off-planet retaliation system would be joined by overwhelming
force, and no need to summon any of them. Fear would do the calling. Salusa
Secundus and its allies would vanish in hot clouds. House Corrino would not risk
such a holocaust. They were undoubtedly sincere in subscribing to the argument
that nuclear weapons were a reserve held for one purpose: defense of humankind
should a threatening "other intelligence" ever be encountered.


But this is obviously just an excuse.
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Re: Mentats of Dune

Postby D Pope » 07 Oct 2014 11:11

Brian wrote:With so many years of Dune history still available to be explored,
is there any planned end in sight for the franchise?


So far, Dad published six novels and I published ten major novels with
Kevin, and then a secondary Dune novel, so there's -- depending on how
you count -- either 16 or 17 published now. We have two more under
contract, which would get us up to 18 or 19, and after that -- I think there
might be three more and that would be it. That would be about the founding
of the Great School -- The Bene Gesserit. So that would be The Sisterhood
of Dune, The Mentats of Dune, and The Swordmasters of Dune. But beyond
that, I'm feeling like it would be too many books, and these are all major
novels that follow Frank Herbert's outline
that he laid out for this 23,000 year
epic. But I don't want to branch off the main river -- at least with major novels.
Now, there's some talk about intelligent graphic novels that could tell some
smaller stories, but as far as the major novels go, I do see the end in sight
.


In the Legends of Dune trilogy, you introduced two characters -- Omnius and
Erasmus -- who we then see neatly dovetailed into the follow-up to
Chapterhouse: Dune. Was this the plan all along, or was it more serendipity?


No, it was the plan, and it's the reason we didn't write Dune 7 -- actually, Dune 7
turned into two novels. What Dad called Dune 7 was the grand chronological
conclusion to the series. He envisioned one novel, but by the time Kevin and I started
writing all the stories about The Butlerian Jihad 10,000 years before Dune and other
stories, there was just too much -- we had to do it as two novels. But the two novels
that we did, Hunters of Dune and Sandworms of Dune, that were Dad's Dune 7 basically,
we had his plot, we had his notes, so we knew exactly where he was going with it, and
we wove the old events -- Erasmus and Omnius -- we wove that all in, knowing where
Dad wanted to go with the series
.

http://www.the-trades.com/articles/2009 ... -heir-dune


8 ) What began your's and Brian Herbert's writing process with Dune: House
Atreides? Did you ever deviate from any preliminary plans you might have
had for writing the first Dune Prequels?


When we met and discussed the various paths we could approach the project,
we settled on the “House” books as the best way to reawaken interest in the
DUNE series. We had plotted out the general storyline and knew where we
wanted to go -- and then, within days after I had gone back home -- Brian
received a call from the estate lawyer about newly discovered safe-deposit
boxes. Inside, were the working notes and full outline for DUNE 7
, so
suddenly we had the roadmap for where we had to end up. The initial target
for all this work was to build up to DUNE 7, but we couldn’t just jump right in
because it had been too long since CHAPTERHOUSE was published. And now
we saw that Frank Herbert’s plans for the Butlerian Jihad, and the stories
leading up to DUNE 7 all tied wonderfully together.

http://forum.dune2k.com/topic/12478-kev ... interview/


I could go on, the whole thing is shit.
Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
-Omphalos

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Re: Mentats of Dune

Postby Freakzilla » 07 Oct 2014 14:07

There was an interview called "Sand in My Shoes", I think, where Brian says in plain English that Erasmus was Kevin's creation:

Herbert continued, "I usually write the first draft of the Erasmus character. Kevin came up with a character -- a Thinking Machine who was researching what it was like to be human -- and I said let's add (the Nazi medical researcher) Dr Mengele to him and make him really dark and strange. Then Kevin laughed and said, 'Boy Brian, I don't know if I can write that, you'd better do it!' He wasn't saying that couldn't write it -- it was just a little dig that only my twisted mind could write that character. So we have a lot of fun. We riff off each other, like a musical performance."


https://www.sfsite.com/07a/sabh203.htm
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Re: Mentats of Dune

Postby lotek » 07 Oct 2014 14:17

Yeah I remember that riffing off each other thing.
It grossed me out then, it grosses me out now.
Spice is the worm's gonads.

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Re: Mentats of Dune

Postby Sardaukar Capt » 07 Oct 2014 22:26

Freakzilla wrote:There was an interview called "Sand in My Shoes", I think, where Brian says in plain English that Erasmus was Kevin's creation:

Herbert continued, "I usually write the first draft of the Erasmus character. Kevin came up with a character -- a Thinking Machine who was researching what it was like to be human -- and I said let's add (the Nazi medical researcher) Dr Mengele to him and make him really dark and strange. Then Kevin laughed and said, 'Boy Brian, I don't know if I can write that, you'd better do it!' He wasn't saying that couldn't write it -- it was just a little dig that only my twisted mind could write that character. So we have a lot of fun. We riff off each other, like a musical performance."


https://www.sfsite.com/07a/sabh203.htm


Keith invented Data and BoBo turned him into Lore. What a pair of literary visionaries.
The name Atreides was also consciously chosen. It is the family name of Agamemnon. Says Herbert, "I wanted a sense of monumental aristocracy, but with tragedy hanging over them--and in our culture, Agamemnon personifies that."
Frank Herbert by Tim O'Reilly
http://tim.oreilly.com/herbert/

Ghanima said. "We Atreides go back to Agamemnon..."
Distracted, Irulan asked: "Who's Agamemnon?"

Children of Dune by Frank Herbert

WTF? A BG forgets the Titans?! :)

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Re: Mentats of Dune

Postby D Pope » 07 Oct 2014 23:55

Ya read enough of kieths interviews and he'll surprise you with his ability to
contradict himself. Topics great and small, whatever lie he feels fits the moment.
Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
-Omphalos

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lotek
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Re: Mentats of Dune

Postby lotek » 08 Oct 2014 06:26

Considering he appoints himself master of universes, I think we can be safe in assuming he doesn't feel the need to be consistent.
Spice is the worm's gonads.


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