Born on Kaitain? Putting this particular dog down for good

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orald
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Postby orald » 22 Apr 2008 20:16

Yea, Chig, I thought of mentioning that too but I'll be damned if I play devil's advocate. :P

Mandy, they had Paul kidnapped, or more precisely an unsuccessful kidnap attempt by Piter. It ended up with Mohiam(?) going Kianno on his ass.
Turns out dear Piter in DUNE is actually a ghola(or clone?) of this Piter.
I think she had already given birth and was lying exhausted when Piter came and took Paul(lol, no guards? no BG watching the KH all of a sudden?)
At least that's what I remember from one read 10 years ago. :?

They probably couldn't think of way to make their stupid drama on the heavily guarded Atreides home planet, so they made them go to Kaitain somehow(maybe Mohiam wanted to deliver Jessica's baby because it was so important etc? I don't remember).
In memory of Perach, who suffered and died needlessly.

I wish I could have been with you that one last time.

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Postby GamePlayer » 22 Apr 2008 21:31

SandChigger wrote:Um...this is in the Prequels/Sequels forum...d'uh. ;)


[in Benicio Del Toro voice]
"Now why'd you have to go and do that? I was trying to make a point"

:) :lol:

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Postby SandChigger » 22 Apr 2008 22:32

:D

SORRY!
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Postby chanilover » 23 Apr 2008 01:53

In the Prequels he was born on Kaitain as everyone was there for the wedding of Shaddam to Anirul, I think. Mohiam, of course, is Jessica's mother, so she was protecting the Atreides bloodline and her grandchild, for whom she had knitted a lovely romper suit. It was at this time that she bumped into Piter, who she discovered peering through a keyhole in Irulan's door and jerking off. Disgusted, she hit Piter around the head so hard with her handbag that he swallowed his tongue and choked to death.

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Postby SandChigger » 23 Apr 2008 02:25

I really do think you should rewrite the prequels. Your versions are so much more enjoyable. :D
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Postby Serkanner » 23 Apr 2008 04:14

Nekhrun wrote:
Serkanner wrote:Let us not forget that Brian Herbert mentions in his biography "Dreamer of Dune" that Frank had named his boat Caladan after the planet where Paul Atreides was born. ( not raised but born ).

That's a great one! Is that an exact quote?


This is the exact quote:

"One of the expense outlays involved a forty-four-foot sailboat, which Dad named 'Caladan,' after the planet in the Dune universe where Paul Muad'Dib was born."

Dreamer of Dune, first paperback edition, page 296, Tor books

Playing the Devil's advocate: ... Brian writes Paul Muad'Dib and not Paul Atreides. I wouldn't be surprised to see an actual explanation for this by stationg Paul Atreides was born on Katain and Paul Muad'Dib on Caladan.

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Postby Freakzilla » 23 Apr 2008 06:28

One could argue that Paul-Muad'dib was born on Arrakis.

A beginning is the time for taking the most delicate care that the balances are
correct. This every sister of the Bene Gesserit knows. To begin your study of
the life of Muad'Dib, then, take care that you first place him in his time: born
in the 57th year of the Padishah Emperor, Shaddam IV. And take the most special
care that you locate Muad'Dib in his place: the planet Arrakis. Do not be
deceived by the fact that he was born on Caladan and lived his first fifteen
years there. Arrakis, the planet known as Dune, is forever his place.

-from "Manual of Muad'Dib" by the Princess Irulan
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Postby orald » 23 Apr 2008 16:29

Well, maybe re-born.

At least we know above all certainty that Leto II was born on Earth in a yurt, and was probably mongolian or something of the kind.
God Leto in his journals wrote:This morning I was born in a yurt at the edge of a horse-plain in a land of a planet which no longer exists.

:lol:
In memory of Perach, who suffered and died needlessly.



I wish I could have been with you that one last time.

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Postby Omphalos » 23 Apr 2008 23:09

bryanvdk wrote:i really am baffled at how they can imagine justifying their having Paul born on Kaitain, it just doesn't make sense.

i mean all other inconsistencies aside as far as the macro-vision of the series, that's just downright stupidity, did KJA not read the fucking books?


I think that they fucked up. It was a goof.

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Postby orald » 24 Apr 2008 00:28

I don't think it was a goof, I think they deliberately ignored it.

Paul was born on Kaitain so he could be a part of a big drama with Piter etc even in his nappies. They just plainly disregarded the Duniverse and thought "Oh were can we smuggle someone to almost kidnap Paul? We know- Kaitain!". Since it's got lots of other factions on it(being that the Landsraad's HQ is there(?), even if it's never mentioned it's a central place and looks reasoable for the HQ, so I won't berate them that).

Another stupid thing is that Leto is dumbstruck and enraged in Dune after the hunter-seeker incident, saying to himself in dismay "they tried to take the life of my son".
Clearly, this is the first ever attempt ever to come close to succeeding, and the whole Kaitian BS goes against it as well.
In memory of Perach, who suffered and died needlessly.



I wish I could have been with you that one last time.

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Postby Tleilax Master B » 25 Apr 2008 10:49

Yup, I think I have to agree with Orald (damn, what happened to my personal standards? :wink: ). They just blatantly went against the canon. It can't be a goof, they are complete idiots, but they aren't that clueless. They changed it on purpose.

My feeling is that there was always a deliberate and concerted plan to use the unpublished notes and outline as a bullshit reason to justify anything they changed. They would always fall back on "That was in Frank's notes" and pretty much gave them (in their minds) free reign to change whatever the fuck they wanted to. That's why its so important that we trash them incessantly to insure they don't succeed :wink:
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Postby loremaster » 25 Apr 2008 10:53

I think they possibly hoped that it would make good sensationalism.

Like the deus ex machina cliches they seem keen on.

I suppose it could have made good drama, had it been written properly. in the era of DM + CoD it could have been well woven into the plot, a la "another schism in the atreides ranks".

Well, maybe anyway. I think its possible Frank could have written it into a believable plotline.

I think they thought that people would accept it coming from them the same way they would from Frank. Which of course we haven't.
The HLP hasnt released Frank's notes yet, Brian hasn't got the handwriting quite right!

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Postby orald » 25 Apr 2008 10:57

TMB wrote:Yup, I think I have to agree with Orald (damn, what happened to my personal standards? :wink: )

Soon the whole world shall tremble before my might and have no choice but to agree with me...or bend over! :evil:
Last edited by orald on 25 Apr 2008 11:11, edited 1 time in total.
In memory of Perach, who suffered and died needlessly.



I wish I could have been with you that one last time.

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Postby Freakzilla » 25 Apr 2008 11:01

orald wrote:
TMB wrote:Yup, I think I have to agree with Orald (damn, what happened to my personal standards? :wink: )

Soon the whole world shall tremble before my my might and have no choice but to agree with me...or bend over! :evil:


I don't respond well to ultimatums. :(
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Postby Tleilax Master B » 25 Apr 2008 11:06

orald wrote:
TMB wrote:Yup, I think I have to agree with Orald (damn, what happened to my personal standards? :wink: )

Soon the whole world shall tremble before my my might and have no choice but to agree with me...or bend over! :evil:


I won't tremble before "your your" might :roll: One should be careful when dealing with a vile Master :evil:
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Postby Freakzilla » 25 Apr 2008 11:43

bryanvdk wrote:
Tleilax Master B wrote:My feeling is that there was always a deliberate and concerted plan to use the unpublished notes and outline as a bullshit reason to justify anything they changed. They would always fall back on "That was in Frank's notes" and pretty much gave them (in their minds) free reign to change whatever the fuck they wanted to. That's why its so important that we trash them incessantly to insure they don't succeed :wink:



wouldn't be surprising if Frank had the idea of Paul being born on Kaitain at some point and wrote it down, but FFS he scrapped the idea and had Paul born on Caladan. anyone getting anwhere on that boulder idea :twisted:


That's probably exactly what happened.
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Postby Omphalos » 25 Apr 2008 12:02

Freakzilla wrote:
bryanvdk wrote:
Tleilax Master B wrote:My feeling is that there was always a deliberate and concerted plan to use the unpublished notes and outline as a bullshit reason to justify anything they changed. They would always fall back on "That was in Frank's notes" and pretty much gave them (in their minds) free reign to change whatever the fuck they wanted to. That's why its so important that we trash them incessantly to insure they don't succeed :wink:



wouldn't be surprising if Frank had the idea of Paul being born on Kaitain at some point and wrote it down, but FFS he scrapped the idea and had Paul born on Caladan. anyone getting anwhere on that boulder idea :twisted:


That's probably exactly what happened.


i wouldnt be surpirsed if one of those two wrote it, not even remembering that FH had said anything about it, then it got past that crack team of "proofers and PhD's" and never got caught.

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Progress report

Postby SandChigger » 25 Apr 2008 12:10

:x Rock....fall...uuuuung...rock...falllllll!!!! :x

Nothing yet. :cry:
"Let the dead give water to the dead. As for me, it's NO MORE FUCKING TEARS!"

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Postby orald » 25 Apr 2008 12:18

Use the Force, Chig! :)
In memory of Perach, who suffered and died needlessly.



I wish I could have been with you that one last time.

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Postby SandChigger » 25 Apr 2008 12:30

I'm starting to think at this point I'd have more luck with a fart-induced tremblor. :D


(And with that malodorous bit I'm off to the futon! Nighty nighty all!)
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Postby Lundse » 02 Jul 2008 14:51

SandChigger wrote:They either created it themselves out of whole cloth or misunderstood something in the Notes. :roll:


Actually, I don't think they 'misunderstood' the notes as much as they probably just used whatever was in there. Like that scene Frank write for the movie, which thought would make a nice addition to the book (which is another continuity, but K&B like to place it loose with stuff like continuity).

This raises an interesting question: can we, from their inane books, get some understanding of what Frank might have been thinking about including?

All we have to do is sort out all the stuff which is there for their own convenience (is something going on around the birth on Kaitan which they felt had to happen there?) and all the shit that is too inane for it to be based on anything by Frank himself (a somewhat harder task)?

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Postby Serkanner » 02 Jul 2008 15:27

You are not actually asking me to read them again are you?
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Postby SandChigger » 02 Jul 2008 19:09

Without knowing what the original FH note/material said, it's going to be really hard to do.

Think about the "HMs from disgruntled Tleilaxu tank women" bit in Sadworms. A lot of us thought that had a real FH feel about it. (I'm not so sure anymore.) But it's entirely possible that FH just had a stray thought one day while mulling over the possibilities and jotted down something like

HMs from former Tleilaxu tanks?

And that's what they found in his stuff and vroom vroom vroom away they went.

(The fact that they provide no explanation at all about how or why the Other Memory block was there—or how Murbella just pigging out on spice could break through the blockage—makes the above scenario seem fairly plausible to me.)
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Postby Freakzilla » 02 Jul 2008 19:35

That's how a "2-1/2 page roadmap of clues" turns into "complete and detailed outline".
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Postby SandChigger » 02 Jul 2008 19:42

Hiking and Scouting for Boys?
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