Born on Kaitain? Putting this particular dog down for good

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Serkanner
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Postby Serkanner » 03 Jul 2008 04:07

I was just wondering. Would you send your teenage kid along with KJA on one of his hikes?
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Postby SandChigger » 03 Jul 2008 04:24

I wouldn't send you, a grown man, out into the wild with him. :lol:
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Postby Serkanner » 03 Jul 2008 05:54

SandChigger wrote:I wouldn't send you, a grown man, out into the wild with him. :lol:


Because I might actually try to let a LARGE boulder fall on him?
"... the mystery of life isn't a problem to solve but a reality to experience."

“There is no escape—we pay for the violence of our ancestors.”

Sandrider: "Keith went to Bobo's for a weekend of drinking, watched some DVDs,
and wrote a Dune Novel."

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Postby inhuien » 03 Jul 2008 05:59

SandChigger wrote:I wouldn't send you, a grown man, out into the wild with him. :lol:

But how about a wild man, to make him groan, and not in a nice way. :twisted: :twisted: :D
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Postby Mr. Teg » 03 Jul 2008 06:35

SandChigger wrote:They either created it themselves out of whole cloth or misunderstood something in the Notes. :roll:


I got the impression from old posts on dumbnovels, etc. that they take the copyright of Frank's works literally.

Otherwords, they own each word, so if they want to interprete their own way that's their right!

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Postby Nekhrun » 03 Jul 2008 08:08

Serkanner wrote:I was just wondering. Would you send your teenage kid along with KJA on one of his hikes?

Fuck no. But I probably wouldn't let him go with half of you guys either. :wink:

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Postby Secher Nbiw » 03 Jul 2008 10:29

Serkanner wrote:I was just wondering. Would you send your teenage kid along with KJA on one of his hikes?


No, he might secretely be a kiddy fiddler... you can never be to paranoid about that in todays society.

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Postby orald » 03 Jul 2008 11:16

Secher Nbiw wrote:
Serkanner wrote:I was just wondering. Would you send your teenage kid along with KJA on one of his hikes?


No, he might secretely be a kiddy fiddler... you can never be to paranoid about that in todays society.

Yea!

Umm, that's bad.
Very.
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Postby Robspierre » 03 Jul 2008 13:12

orald wrote:
Secher Nbiw wrote:
Serkanner wrote:I was just wondering. Would you send your teenage kid along with KJA on one of his hikes?


No, he might secretely be a kiddy fiddler... you can never be to paranoid about that in todays society.

Yea!

Umm, that's bad.
Very.



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Postby orald » 04 Jul 2008 10:15

Lol, he's so adorable! :twisted:
In memory of Perach, who suffered and died needlessly.



I wish I could have been with you that one last time.

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Freakzilla
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Postby Freakzilla » 29 Jul 2008 12:55

I found another quote saying Paul was born on Caladan, here it is as I posted it at DN:

Freakzilla wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:
Hypatia wrote:I'm sure Caladan would probably have experienced an economic boost from tourism, if nothing else! :)

But at least Caladan would have remained under the stewardship of people loyal to the Atreides.


As she turned to go down to the meeting, she saw the letter where she'd left
it on a table by the door: the latest message from their mother. Despite the
special reverence held for Caladan as the place of Paul's birth, the Lady
Jessica had emphasized her refusal to make her planet a stop on the hajj.

~Dune Messiah


What fools Paul's mother and sister were, thinking Paul was born on Caladan.

:lol:
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Postby A Thing of Eternity » 29 Jul 2008 13:53

Let's see them BS their way out of that one. Nice work Freak.

What thread is that in? I may pop over there to have a look.
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Freakzilla
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Postby Freakzilla » 29 Jul 2008 14:01

A Thing of Eternity wrote:Let's see them BS their way out of that one. Nice work Freak.

What thread is that in? I may pop over there to have a look.


It's in Hypatia's "Kaitain post-Muad-dib" topic, or something similar.
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Postby Purge » 29 Jul 2008 14:15

Not that I disagree with the fact that it was ridiculous to try to mess with where Paul was born and all the apologetics that have since ensued, but a place being revered as someone's birth place doesn't necessarily make it their actual birth place.

For instance, the convoluted gymnastics the gospels of the NT go through trying to present Jesus as having been born in Beitlehem of Judah, attempting to connect him to the birth place of David, when everything points to Jesus living and working in the Galilee, being referred to as Jesus of Nazareth, etc.

What most people don't know is that there is a Bethlehem in the Galilee about 10 km north-west of Nazareth (as mentioned in Joshua 19:15). It is far more plausible that if this Jesus was born in a Bethlehem it was the Bethlehem in the Galilee, however it is much more attractive to try to correlate his birth with the more famous Bethlehem.

I am not trying to side-track, and I am not saying that these two instances are exactly the same. There may even be far better examples than the one I have given. But it isn't entirely implausible that a place be revered as something that it actually isn't.

However, I do agree that the entire Kaitain birth was a mistake, and all attempts to justify it after the fact.

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Postby Freakzilla » 29 Jul 2008 14:27

That's true but Paul could have been from any other planet besides Arrakis and fufilled the prophecy.

He was "the voice from the outer world" not "the voice from Kaitain".
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Postby Purge » 29 Jul 2008 14:30

I agree. There was no reason for anyone to write him as being born anywhere but Caladan, which was established as his birth place.

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Freakzilla
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Postby Freakzilla » 29 Jul 2008 14:53

So why do y'all think they did this? Were they just looking to stir up controversy?
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Postby Purge » 29 Jul 2008 15:08

Not sure. Maybe they got carried away with the storyline they were writing and didn't want to scrap it, and so thought they would be able to pass it off with an explanation like the ones they've given. Maybe they wrote it without considering the birth place listed in the original books and either didn't catch it until it came out and they were called on it, or did catch it and chose not to re-write it. Who knows.

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Postby Omphalos » 29 Jul 2008 15:09

I still think it was a mistake. I'd put money on the fact that they only thought Paul's birth place was addressed only in that one quote from page 1, and didnt know of any of these other quotes we have dug up. Maybe they were trying to stir up controversy, but by not knowing of the other quotes as proof of birth on Caladan, it was part mistake too. And a stupid one at that.

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Postby TheDukester » 29 Jul 2008 15:32

Freakzilla wrote:So why do y'all think they did this? Were they just looking to stir up controversy?

Mistake, pure and simple.

It's a direct result of handing off the Dune legacy to a clown who freely admits he writes just as fast as his fat little digits can press the keys, and who thinks that dictating while getting lost in the woods is actually a good idea.

The error would then be compounded by having a "writing partner" — who I firmly believe writes not a single word ... but I digress — who is essentially a spineless jellyfish and a yes-man. And it's not like anyone at the HLP would be of any use in fact-checking: they sold their souls many years ago and couldn't care less what's actually between the covers; they are concerned only with their frequent trips to the bank.

Or here's the short answer: the Hiking Hack and his Wind-Up Toy blew it, big-time.
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Postby A Thing of Eternity » 29 Jul 2008 17:59

Omphalos wrote:I still think it was a mistake. I'd put money on the fact that they only thought Paul's birth place was addressed only in that one quote from page 1, and didnt know of any of these other quotes we have dug up. Maybe they were trying to stir up controversy, but by not knowing of the other quotes as proof of birth on Caladan, it was part mistake too. And a stupid one at that.


I'll put my money with Omph's. The change was probably deliberate, them thinking that they had a decent excuse for that one passage stating Paul was born on Caladan - but I'm almost 100% sure they wouldn't have found the others and probably had no idea that they were contradicting more than that one passage.
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Postby SandChigger » 29 Jul 2008 19:27

Ah...listen to the sound of multiple small feet tapping and a small throat being cleared repeatedly.

Freakzilla wrote:I found another quote saying Paul was born on Caladan

Ahem:

http://www.jacurutu.com/viewtopic.php?p=7357#7357 :twisted:

Granted, this is an old, cold thread. :P

I vote for the stupidity/Dune-ignorance explanation. They thought their story with Paul born on Kaitain was interesting enough to contradict the first lines of Dune itself. Maybe they thought people wouldn't notice or care, who knows. They didn't respect the readership enough to include an explanation when writing the book, or to fix it for the paperback version; they just put up that silly naming ceremony bullshit on the website FAQ. ("FAQ YOU!" they're saying, no?) Obviously that "Concordance" that Brian supposedly worked a year on (and references in the biblios to Dreamer of Dune, the shit) isn't worth shit, because a real concordance would have listed all the occurrences of "Caladan". There should also be entries under Paul for "birth" and "birthworld".

I forget how many pages they've claimed the "Concordance" is—a thousand and some, maybe?—but it doesn't sound like very much. (For six books, I mean.) Especially when it's hard to know exactly what "page" means...when we're dealing with the Hacks Twain. Is that single- or double-spaced, letter size? Or like the really detailed outline for "Dune 7" contained on two-and-a-half pages? :roll:

It also might be that this is another outcome of who they are and how they do things.

Brian is a technophobe. Sure, he has a Mac PowerBook (or maybe MacBook now?), but how much and how well does he actually USE it? I wonder if he has, as most of us do, copies of all the books on his disk, that he can search and check details with? There'd be an interesting question for Byron to relay on.

And Kevin talks about doing research and taking notes and blah blah blah, but when it comes down to the actual writing, he's out in the woods hiking. Who seriously thinks he takes along his Mac laptop and a bunch of paper notes to refer to? Nah, Kevin's all about the CREATIVITY and THE ARTISTIC MOMENT. He's winging it, babbling away. And he doesn't even see what he has "written" until it gets mailed back to him by the typist. It'd be great if he went back and double-checked all the details in previous books and his notes...but who thinks he really does? This is the guy who says it doesn't matter if a writer can't keep a character's eye color straight from one book to another. And who says he has learned to dictate perfect prose. So who wants to bet he just reads through to check for transcription errors and spelling and grammar mistakes? I mean, how can you improve on perfection?

So where does that leave us? With a Luddite who probably doesn't utilize modern technology that would provide him with an instant "concordance" any time he needs it (You just KNOW he did his by hand, right?) and an egotistical hiker hack who doesn't really write, he narrates.

And THAT's why you end up with Paul born on Kaitain.

:roll:
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Postby Omphalos » 29 Jul 2008 20:13

SandChigger wrote:Ah...listen to the sound of multiple small feet tapping and a small throat being cleared repeatedly.


Lozenge?

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Postby SandChigger » 30 Jul 2008 01:31

Nah, I'm over it.

A nice bowl of vichyssoise and a lovely piece of chicken smothered in a bell pepper relish, followed by an industrial strength cup of espresso seems to have cleared things up nicely. (That's right, Teg, Pas à Pas! 8) )

I'm taking off early today for a "Beer Matsuri" (Festival) back up in the home city, at my favorite little hole-in-the-wall. Annual event, but haven't been able to work it in the last two years. I did my last class Monday, so I've taken tomorrow off...just in case it turns out to be more fun that I expect. ;)

Ah...seems summer is finally here. :D
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Postby Omphalos » 30 Jul 2008 02:10

Ah, the French place that fears the Teg. (I swear I was waiting for him to slip his dick into that cup of iced coffee). :P