What idea from the Prequels had that Frank feel?

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Davaro
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What idea from the Prequels had that Frank feel?

Postby Davaro » 14 May 2008 11:36

What idea from the Prequels had that feeling of something Frank might have written? Of course I am talking about the idea itself, not how it was presented by the Gruesome Twosome.

Only two come to my mind and the second is questionable.

1. That the Honored Matre was the produce of Fish Speakers, wild Reverend Mothers and Tleilaxu females. The later of which is the reason why the HM's Other Memories were blocked to the BG. This was the only moment in all of the new books that made me pause while reading, the only Eureka! moment when the puzzle pieces from HoD and CH:D seemed to fall into place. Of course how it was presented and the fact that the Enemy turned out to be Robots in Space kind of made the idea pointless to their story. But if we ignore what they wrote, which I am sure we all try to do, and think about the story how we think Frank would have written it makes the unwritten story much more interesting. If we assume that the Enemy was Face Dancers, which seems obvious to anyone that read the books, the conflict between the two takes on different dimensions. If we take the fact that the Weapon that the HM stole from the enemy instead of just killing everyone cause them to become brain dead and combine the fact that FD are mules we can come to the conclusion that the FD were using the brain dead female bodies to create Tanks so they can reproduce. This would only have inflamed the HM unconscious genetic memories of their times as tanks.

2. Water Worms. Now I haven't read through Hunters yet only checked the summary on wikipedia, but if we dismiss the idea of Ultra-Spice as it should be (Spice is already the ultimate substance, how can you make it better, does it fly?), the idea of Water Worms has some merit. Now at the end of CH:D we have only one source of spice that which is being produced with the new spice cycle on Chapterhouse. This scenario could create a new hydraulic empire, a turning inward, with the elimination of Rakis and the Tleilaxu source. Now the BG did send out No-Ships in order to start the spice cycle on other planets but I always got the feel from Odrade (I think) that these attempts were in vain. The major issue in establishing the spice cycle seems to be water. Now if a sandtrout/worm could be developed that was resistant to water then the spice cycle could be established on any world. This would mean that it can no longer be controlled, no more monopolies, no more inward turning of humanity. I don't know I am still torn on this idea.

Oh yeah! Who could forget......?

3. The Normacle was the ultimate being who sat around for 20,000 years doing nothing and then swooped in to save the day and made all the previous books pointless :roll:

So are there any other ideas that had that Frank feel in the Prequels? If yes what were they and why? And please counter and embellish my ideas above.

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Postby Omphalos » 14 May 2008 11:49

That the Honored Matre was the produce of Fish Speakers, wild Reverend Mothers and Tleilaxu females.


Most around here seem to like the idea that recovered tanks were part of the HM's ancestry, but I think its pretty stoopid. Fish Speakers and BG RM's are enough. The only reason that they were added were so the HM would have a "good" reason to be so pissed off. Well, it was the drugs that they took that did that. Having ancestors be tanked by the BT really would not motivate an individual to such hate. And that also suggests that a tank has some sort of memory of what happened to it, and can pass that memory on. First of all (or am I on second? I dunno.) tanks seem to be non-sentient blobs of flesh to me. Next, HM have no OM, so that rage would not be passed on to progeny. Sorry, but I think that re-evolving tanks back to women and then making them part of the HM was pretty stupid.

As for the water-worm thingie, Hmmm. Lets just say that I disagree. I dont think Frank was thinking of water worms at all.

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Postby Nekhrun » 14 May 2008 12:28

Didn't Odrade in Chapterhouse all but confirm that HMs were of Reverend Mother and Fish Speaker background when she was being questioned by Dama? Not only that she figures it out earlier in the book as evidenced here:
Murbella's clues said Fish Speakers and Reverend Mothers in
extremis formed the Honored Matres.

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Postby Davaro » 14 May 2008 12:52

Good point Omphalos, I can definitely see the HM anger as a byproduct of the adrenaline substitute and the fact that the tanks are brain dead would prevent them from developing memories. Thinking about it I don't see how you could rehabilitate a tank, unless they create a ghola from the flesh that makes up the tank. But then we come to the issue of when a Tleilaxu female is converted, do they wait until puberty which would allow them to develop some type of Ego, or not.

And correct me if I am wrong but I always thought that HM had Other Memories they were just blocked somehow. Is there any indication in the books on why or what is inhibiting those memories?

And to reply Nekhrun I do remember that quote and it could be that they are descendants of RMs and Fish Speakers and their OM is blocked for another reason or that Tleilaxu Females were hidden ancestors and that is the reason. Granted there is no evidence for the later interpretation. Both your replies have helped me look at the issue in a different perspective.

And for the water worms I think I might be stretching a bit, I just like the idea that Spice would no longer be a rare substance but is instead ubiquitous.

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Postby A Thing of Eternity » 14 May 2008 13:07

Now if a sandtrout/worm could be developed that was resistant to water then the spice cycle could be established on any world.

The sandtrout love water. A world with water is exactly what you need to start the spice cycle, that's why early (CoD) attempts to transplant worms failed, they were put into desert conditions. I haven't read Sadworms yet, so I don't know what the explanation is for why waterworms would be better than sandworms, can't think of one myself.
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Postby Freakzilla » 14 May 2008 13:18

Omphalos wrote:Next, HM have no OM, so that rage would not be passed on to progeny.


Everyone has Other Memory. However, if they aren't conscious there's nothing to remember.
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Postby Davaro » 14 May 2008 13:23

A Thing of Eternity wrote:
Now if a sandtrout/worm could be developed that was resistant to water then the spice cycle could be established on any world.

The sandtrout love water. A world with water is exactly what you need to start the spice cycle, that's why early (CoD) attempts to transplant worms failed, they were put into desert conditions. I haven't read Sadworms yet, so I don't know what the explanation is for why waterworms would be better than sandworms, can't think of one myself.


Sandtrout do love water, but you need more than sandtrout to start the spice cycle, otherwise the Corrino experiments with the sandtrout on Salusa Secundus would have succeeded. I don't think I expressed myself as well as I could have in my first post. What I meant was that water was needed along with sandtrout, spice and other to start the cycle. But the amount of water, too much or too little, could prevent the creation of the cycle.

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Postby Omphalos » 14 May 2008 13:35

Freakzilla wrote:
Omphalos wrote:Next, HM have no OM, so that rage would not be passed on to progeny.


Everyone has Other Memory. However, if they aren't conscious there's nothing to remember.


I agree with Freak here. I always misspeak though, and say "no OM" instead of what I really mean, which is "no access to OM."

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Postby Freakzilla » 14 May 2008 13:41

Davaro wrote:
A Thing of Eternity wrote:
Now if a sandtrout/worm could be developed that was resistant to water then the spice cycle could be established on any world.

The sandtrout love water. A world with water is exactly what you need to start the spice cycle, that's why early (CoD) attempts to transplant worms failed, they were put into desert conditions. I haven't read Sadworms yet, so I don't know what the explanation is for why waterworms would be better than sandworms, can't think of one myself.


Sandtrout do love water, but you need more than sandtrout to start the spice cycle, otherwise the Corrino experiments with the sandtrout on Salusa Secundus would have succeeded.


There's no water on Salusa Secundus, it's just as harsh, if not harsher, than Arrakis.

I don't think I expressed myself as well as I could have in my first post. What I meant was that water was needed along with sandtrout, spice and other to start the cycle. But the amount of water, too much or too little, could prevent the creation of the cycle.


Don't forget the sand plankton. :wink:
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Postby A Thing of Eternity » 14 May 2008 16:06

Davaro wrote:
A Thing of Eternity wrote:
Now if a sandtrout/worm could be developed that was resistant to water then the spice cycle could be established on any world.

The sandtrout love water. A world with water is exactly what you need to start the spice cycle, that's why early (CoD) attempts to transplant worms failed, they were put into desert conditions. I haven't read Sadworms yet, so I don't know what the explanation is for why waterworms would be better than sandworms, can't think of one myself.


Sandtrout do love water, but you need more than sandtrout to start the spice cycle, otherwise the Corrino experiments with the sandtrout on Salusa Secundus would have succeeded. I don't think I expressed myself as well as I could have in my first post. What I meant was that water was needed along with sandtrout, spice and other to start the cycle. But the amount of water, too much or too little, could prevent the creation of the cycle.


IIFC the salusa experiments were in a contained dry area, Freak might be right about the whole planet being dry, but i just remember that patch being desert.
I'm not sure if I'm 100% clear on whether there needs to be spice to start the cycle. In GEoD it starts just fine when Leto falls into a normal river, but in Chapterhouse (I think) they lure a worm into spice enriched water? Someone remember better than me?
Also I don't think too much water would be an issue on most worlds, only on ones that were mainly (who knows what % but I'd guess that earth would work just fine and it's about 70%) water. Too little would be a big issue though.
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Re: What idea from the Prequels had that Frank feel?

Postby orald » 14 May 2008 16:30

Davaro wrote:What idea from the Prequels had that feeling of something Frank might have written?

The big Dune smeared all over the front cover? :wink:

Davaro wrote:1. That the Honored Matre was the produce of Fish Speakers, wild Reverend Mothers and Tleilaxu females.
...
The later of which is the reason why the HM's Other Memories were blocked to the BG.

They were blocked due to some form of hypnosys/conditioning or something IIRC. They find it out after Murbella barely passes the Agony.

Davaro wrote:If we take the fact that the Weapon that the HM stole from the enemy instead of just killing everyone cause them to become brain dead and combine the fact that FD are mules we can come to the conclusion that the FD were using the brain dead female bodies to create Tanks so they can reproduce. This would only have inflamed the HM unconscious genetic memories of their times as tanks.

No, no and no.

1. The HM didn't steal any weapon. The bloodless weapons were theirs. It's only mentioned most of them were captured/destroyed as the HM were taking a beating and forced to run away, and Dama was able to save a few.

2. The bloodless weapon kills everyone in range. You're confusing the AFD's(Advanced FD) bio-weapons which do indeed leave HM(and people in general I assume) brain-dead.

3. As it has been mentioned, unconscience=oblivious. The HM have no problem flipping out on their own, from their drugs and their conditioning and "bad attitude".

I'll grant you I've never of FD's using females as ex-tanks for "reproduction"- that actually makes sense, but I think anyone who'd actually care to think of how FD's would create replacements for themselves, them being infertile, would come up with this.
Leaving people brain-dead for use as ex-tanks seems nice...but I'm not too sure it's actually worth the bother. If they wanted more ex-tanks they'd make more ex-tanks using the ones available to them.
It's just a waste of time and resources to capture brain-dead females.

I think it's more likely to be a psychological weapon, the fact that it doesn't just kill them outright.
When you have someone as proud as the HM, who're fanatic and crazy enough to not fear death, how do you frighten them? You neutralize them.


Davaro wrote:2. Water Worms.

All I've gotta say about this is:
Omphalos wrote:Lets just say that I disagree.

:wink:
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Postby Tleilax Master B » 14 May 2008 17:12

Even if the HM did have BT origins, the whole memory-loss-do-to-tank-time theory is stupid and was unnecessary. We already know that BT can't access OM, as Teg's mom states:

But their masters can breed. We have taken a few of them but the offspring are strange. Few female births and even then we cannot probe their Other Memories

And IMHO the reason they can't access OM is because it is not being passed on from generation to generation like normal humans. There are gaps in it, as evidence by this BG observation:

The Tleilaxu secret must be in their sperm. Our tests prove that their sperm does not carry forward in a straight genetic fashion. Gaps occur. Every Tleilaxu we have examined has hidden his inner self from us. They are naturally immune to an Ixian Probe! Secrecy at the deepest levels, that is their ultimatearmor and their ultimate weapon.

-Bene Gesserit Analysis, Archives Code: BTXX441WOR


Anyway, my point was that Frank already gave them a reason for the block in OMs, they didn't have to make up a more simplistic reason :roll:
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Postby SandChigger » 14 May 2008 18:38

Um...the big problem with waterworms:

WORMS DON'T PRODUCE SPICE. SPICE BLOWS RESULTING FROM SANDTROUT FARTS PRODUCE SPICE.

Worms also don't reproduce. They grow out of spice-blow shell-shocked sandtrout after they laze around for six years.

To make waterworms you would have to completely redesign the biochemistry of the adult worms, provide them with a respiratory system that could handle water, create a reproductive system (you have to have a way of making new worms...because you have to kill a worm to get at the ultraspice bladder, right? ... Or would cutting them up into sections be enough? The normal worms seem to grow back from segments, right?), and redesign their digestive tract to handle their evidently now carnivorous lifestyle (normal sandworms eat sand plankton, not meat).

Did I forget anything? :roll:

Sorry, but it's complete BS. If Frank Herbert really dreamt this one up, let them PROVE IT.
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Postby The Sons of Idaho » 14 May 2008 18:41

I gotta say, I agree with the HM axlotl tanks being a good idea. I though it did a good job of tying some things together.

It makes sense to me that any OM they might gain access to, would reach a dead-end due to the tank's lack of conscious memory, and the whole 'non-linear sperm thing' of the BT would prevent OM from reaching back further (assuming after being de-tankified, OM could function normally in succesive generations).
BUT... one of the facts of the Duniverse is that 'the flesh remembers'. Memories resonate in the nerves and muscles, not just the conscious mind (which is seen from OM, Ghola memory, Ixian Probes, etc). This could explain the unfocused rage and general 'not right in the head' demeanor of the HM.

The Waterworms of Buzzel though? I thought that was just ridiculous. You could make the argument that it follows FH's themes of monopolies being broken and such, but that was already taken care of in the post-scattering era with a combination of axlotl tank spice and Ixian navigation machines (BH/KJA renig on that though by saying the ixian nav machines were actually inferior substitutes all along).
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Postby SandChigger » 14 May 2008 18:54

I get the tank being unconscious meaning that no OM is stored for that individual...but why does it block the memory of the ancestors before?

Nah, the BT were messing with the female genes as well.
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Postby Freakzilla » 14 May 2008 20:23

SandChigger wrote:I get the tank being unconscious meaning that no OM is stored for that individual...but why does it block the memory of the ancestors before?

Nah, the BT were messing with the female genes as well.


It shouldn't, all the ancesters before they became tanks would be carried forward... except for the tampering.
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Postby Phaedrus » 15 May 2008 03:12

The only thing they've ever written that made me think "Hey, that sounds like something FH would have written" was from Chapter 2 of Hunters of Dune.

Where Duncan compares the net to a body shield.

Which made sense to me because both are supposed to use the Holtzman formulae.

Other than that, I've never had the thought before.
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Postby The Sons of Idaho » 15 May 2008 10:36

Freakzilla wrote:
SandChigger wrote:I get the tank being unconscious meaning that no OM is stored for that individual...but why does it block the memory of the ancestors before?

Nah, the BT were messing with the female genes as well.


It shouldn't, all the ancesters before they became tanks would be carried forward... except for the tampering.


It makes sense because before the tank was liberated, it and its previous generations were part of the Tleilaxu breeding system, so OM wasn't passed on like normal. As pointed out earlier -
The Tleilaxu secret must be in their sperm. Our tests prove that their sperm does not carry forward in a straight genetic fashion. Gaps occur. Every Tleilaxu we have examined has hidden his inner self from us. They are naturally immune to an Ixian Probe! Secrecy at the deepest levels, that is their ultimatearmor and their ultimate weapon.

-Bene Gesserit Analysis, Archives Code: BTXX441WOR


After the tank is set free, i assume successive generations would breed normally, allowing OM to fuction normally. This would mean that OM would reach a dead end at the tank's generation because of no consciousness, and there would be nothing further back because of the Tleilaxu breeding system.
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Postby orald » 15 May 2008 12:34

I'm not sure how much "liberation" is possible here- you're talking about a chunk of brain-dead meat with tubes sticking out of it.
What're you gonna do, remove some tubes, put on some make-up and marry it? :?
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Postby Omphalos » 15 May 2008 13:50

orald wrote:I'm not sure how much "liberation" is possible here- you're talking about a chunk of brain-dead meat with tubes sticking out of it.
What're you gonna do, remove some tubes, put on some make-up and marry it? :?


Why am I having deja vu of my first marriage now? :wink:

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Postby The Sons of Idaho » 15 May 2008 14:02

orald wrote:I'm not sure how much "liberation" is possible here- you're talking about a chunk of brain-dead meat with tubes sticking out of it.
What're you gonna do, remove some tubes, put on some make-up and marry it? :?
Well no... i'm not talking about direct restoration of a tank. But there are things that could be done. Like making a ghola/clone from the tank's cells which could then breed normally.
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Postby orald » 15 May 2008 16:48

Clones, yea, but IDK about a ghola, that'll be one disturbed ghola if it ever got its memories back...though I'm not so sure what those memories would be...not conscious ones, but one hell of a disturbing bad feeling.
That is, if the actual genom wasn't sliced and diced by the BT to begin with.

And like I've said before, I can't imagine the BT or FD kidnapping fresh bodies to "tankify", they'll rather use their own tanks to grow new ones.
That would mean there's likely to be no real OM left(unless you wanna try and get memories from the original female in the distant past from whom that specific tank got the flesh sample, but that's stretching it a bit I think.

BTW, in a previous post or two I called tanks "ex-tanks", this was meant as axoltl tanks, hence ax-tanks, but my mind was glitching and it turned that way. I didn't mean "ex-tanks" as in "past tanks", i.e liberated ones or something like that.
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Postby Spice Grandson » 15 May 2008 16:51

orald wrote:I'm not sure how much "liberation" is possible here- you're talking about a chunk of brain-dead meat with tubes sticking out of it.
What're you gonna do, remove some tubes, put on some make-up and marry it? :?


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Postby orald » 15 May 2008 16:57

Marry, I have terrible news. They...they ate our slig love-child! :cry:
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Postby SandChigger » 15 May 2008 17:55

Let's back up a minute, shall we? There's something about Murbella breaking through the memory wall that bothers me.

Before she does her walk in the wild with her Keebler Spice Wafers:

But Murbella demanded to know about the other half of her existence, to discover what lay behind the black wall that blocked all Honored Matre paths. Yes, the memories were there, but muddled and disorganized, and they seemed to reach a dead end after only a handful of centuries, as if she had sprung from nowhere.

Were the whores descended from lost and corrupted Reverend Mothers, isolated out in the Scattering, as had been postulated? Had they formed their society with surviving Fish Speakers from the God Emperor's private guard, creating a bureaucracy based on violence and sexual domination?

Then later

Now that Murbella had broken through the black wall in her Other Memories, she understood exactly what the Enemy was and what the Honored Matres had done to provoke them. She knew more about the nature of the Outside Enemy than Odrade, Taraza, or any previous Bene Gesserit leader had ever guessed.

She had lived those lives.

In particular she saw herself as a harsh, ambitious, and successful commander, driving her squadron of ships outward, ever outward. Lenise.

Um...you see the problem here, right?

This Lenise character is an Honored Matre. A woman who lived AFTER the supposed liberation of the Tleilaxu tanks. Why would OM of her have been blocked? She was born and lived (and reproduced, obviously) after any blanking of memory from the tanking could have been in effect. Unless the HMs genetic structure was permanently whacked.

But if their genetic structure is fooked, a few spice wafers and Murbella strainin' like she's got a turd crossways isn't going to break through that, knowharramean?

Too bad they didn't find the piece of paper or file with what Frank had in mind for this (if anything). Or Frank didn't discuss this point over Wheaties with his nappy-headed Literary Heir Apparent. :roll:
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