About Norma and Omnius

[sparafucile]

So, as I lurk throughout multiple dune forums, I keep seeing arguments against sandworms, and that's all well in good, but one I keep seeing is something like, 'If Norma could whisk away Omnius on a whim, why didn't she do this a long time ago?'

I only read sandworms once, so other information regarding norma and her knowledge/abilities I may be lacking, but didn't she say that she didn't know where to find Omnius? That would explain why she didn't do it earlier, because she didn't know where to look.

Of course, the circumstances surrounding it make no sense. She seems to be pretty much omnipotent, and can travel throughout dimensions, and has had 15000 years to explore the cosmos. In all that time, she never caught a hint, a glimmer of Omnius? Okay, the universe is a big place, so if Omnius had left the galaxy, I can understand that she couldn't find him, but only IF she didn't have super powers, and was more like some random human who was flying around the universe checking shit out. Maybe someone who read the BJ trilogy and hunters/sandworms more thoroughly can try to explain a little more clearly the known extents of Norma's powers.

Disclaimer: This is by no means my way of saying the books make sense. Of course a lot of things make no sense and certain elements written are really dumb, but I thought it only fair to give credit where credit is due, and given my current knowledge, I think it's only fair to consider this.

Of course, if BH/KJA's writing says otherwise, please shoot me down

[Tleilax Master B]

I don't recall Norma ever saying she couldn't find Omnius. I think she couldn't find the "Ithaca" because it was popping in and out of different universes, but don't recall her not finding Omnius.

Norma's prescient powers nullified a part of the lasgun-hitting-shield effect without her even fucking doing anything. I don't see how she wouldn't be able to find one stupid AI out in the Scattering (with a gigantic robot army)

[The Sons of Idaho]

Norma's prescient powers nullified a part of the lasgun-hitting-shield effect

Am I forgetting something? I don't remember this happening. It doesn;t even sound like it's supposed to make sense.

[SandChigger]

I remember something, maybe from Grunters though, about her not being able to find the Big O. (I bet that's a feeling Hyppo can relate to. ) I'll have a look for it tomorrow. (Doesn't she detect the tachyon net at one point but decide not to follow it to its source because she's not ready for the final conflict yet?)

But B's right, she's supposed to have this amazing prescience (greater even than Leto's, no?), and I believe she once looked all the way around the universe and saw the back of her head, so you'd think she could find a bunch of machines milling about in space on and around multiple planets and star systems. Especially given that Omnius would have set up his new shop not far from the boundaries of the Old Empire, since that datapacket laser signal couldn't have travelled more than 10000 light years or so.

Norma and Omnius...off together alone in an alternate universe.

You know she's shtoopin' him.

[Omphalos]

Norma's prescient powers nullified a part of the lasgun-hitting-shield effect

Am I forgetting something? I don't remember this happening. It doesn;t even sound like it's supposed to make sense.

I think that there was a shield/lasgun contact before the one that destroyed the city in one of those shitty legends books. I think the subsequent one killed Holtzmann after he had thrown Norma out on her keester, so she was not around to save the day. Bullshit!

[Tleilax Master B]

Norma's prescient powers nullified a part of the lasgun-hitting-shield effect

Am I forgetting something? I don't remember this happening. It doesn;t even sound like it's supposed to make sense.

Oh yeah, its on their "official" FAQ page:

"In THE BUTLERIAN JIHAD, when Holtzman and Norma are testing the las-gun/shield interaction for the first time, only the shield generator explodes. In previous books both las-gun and shield were destroyed. Can you explain this?"

"Norma herself has certain untapped powers of prescient manipulation -- she's not even aware of them yet in THE BUTLERIAN JIHAD. In all other instances, lasgun and shield both explode"

Lamest explanation for a blatant inconsistancy ever!

[SandChigger]

Norma's prescient powers nullified a part of the lasgun-hitting-shield effect

Am I forgetting something? I don't remember this happening. It doesn;t even sound like it's supposed to make sense.

Is this the one they're talking about:

THE TEST TOOK place on a bleak asteroid orbiting far from Poritrin. A team of construction workers excavated a test zone in a flat crater, erected a few recording devices, then placed a shield-generating apparatus in the crumbly dust of the crater floor. Then they departed the asteroid to join with a larger frigate bound for Poritrin.

To observe, Norma and Holtzman sat inside a small military shuttle flown by a reserve Armada pilot. The Savant had expected to rig sophisticated remote-firing laser weapons down in the crater around the target zone. Aware of his budgetary concerns, though, Norma had suggested that it might be sufficient just to fly over the target and shoot at it with an old laser weapon installed in the ship.

As the pilot guided them over the test area, the moody scientist hardly responded to Norma's attempts at conversation. Holtzman watched as they closed in on the target crater. He seemed annoyed, anxious to prove the young woman wrong. Norma peered through the shuttle windows at the pockmarks, mounds of precariously balanced boulders, deep fissures caused by tidal stresses. The place looked as if it had already been destroyed.

"Let's be done with this," Holtzman said. "Pilot, shoot your laser weapon when you are ready."

Norma looked out the window to watch as the shuttle cruised low until the cleared test area was directly below them. "Preparing to fire, Savant."

Casually and offhandedly, Holtzman said, "You'll see that you have imagined excessive—"

The pilot fired a bright beam from the shuttle's laser. The appalling flare of light and energy snatched the words from his mouth. Even in the silence of space, the shockwave seemed louder than a crack of thunder.

The pulse surged upward, and the pilot yanked the shuttle's flight controls. "Hang on!" Powerful engines tore them away; the acceleration nearly pressed Norma into unconsciousness.

Then a hammer struck them from the rear, batting the ship like a toy. The shuttle spun out of control, and the asteroid fragmented into white-hot molten boulders radiating from the center of the blast like the spokes of a wheel.

Aghast, Holtzman turned away from the blazing light while the pilot tried to impose order upon the military spacecraft. The scientist's breaths came in rapid, astonished bursts.

Beside him, even Norma was astounded. She stared at her mentor, her lips moving without producing words. None were necessary. If Holtzman had blithely conducted this experiment inside his lab, he would have vaporized the lab, his residence, part of the city, and possibly even rerouted the Isana River.

Two "chapter" sections before that, Holtzman is about to do a laser test in his lab dome (shooting a slave wearing a shield) when the midget comes rushing in and stops him. Then she goes over his head to Lord Dudd and arranges the asssteroid test.

In the REAL Duniverse, the ship firing the laser (with Holtzman and the Gidget Midget aboard) and the shield generator in the crater would have both been destroyed.

Shock waves in space...how are they transmitted again?

(Note that it's Norma that suggests firing the laser from the shuttle. Guess her prescience missed the fact that the test would destroy the shuttle, too. Good thing she could do that "prescient manipulation" shit, huh? Damn...this is really bad writing!)

[A Thing of Eternity]

I was actually going to call them on the shock wave and noise thing over at DN but decided against it. A big enough explosion would send tonnes of shrapnel and debris flying, could be considered a shockwave. As far as the noise, could be the noise of the debris hitting the ship. It was too weak so I didn't post anything.

[SandChigger]

This is one we need to shoot over Lisan's bow, because I've read somewhere about compression waves from supernovas. I suppose that involves the material ejected in/by the explosion, along with, maybe, light and other radiation? (Not directly related, but it seems there's also something like bow shock generated by the rotation of the stellar arms of the galaxy; lots of new stars along the leading edges.)

Ditto on the noise: none until something hits your ship hull.

[A Thing of Eternity]

Well, the problem is that shockwaves can exist in space. Space is very rarified, but not a complete vacuum. As such shockwaves of a normal amplitude are reduced to almost nothing because they have little to work with. The frequency of the shock wave also causes problems, lower (longer wavelength) frequencies would propagate more easily, short waves/ high frequencies would die out almost immediately. A high enough amplitude would get around both of these, though again, low freq's would have an easier time of it.

[Dune Nerd]

If I understand correctly, stars exploding are going to be sending out more particles at higher energies than anything that is currently understood by humans.

Of course it is silly to think that a small asteroid exploding would be anywhere near as strong as that seeing how it is smaller and made of less energetic particles.

[The Sons of Idaho]

Norma's prescient powers nullified a part of the lasgun-hitting-shield effect

Am I forgetting something? I don't remember this happening. It doesn;t even sound like it's supposed to make sense.

Oh yeah, its on their "official" FAQ page:

"In THE BUTLERIAN JIHAD, when Holtzman and Norma are testing the las-gun/shield interaction for the first time, only the shield generator explodes. In previous books both las-gun and shield were destroyed. Can you explain this?"

"Norma herself has certain untapped powers of prescient manipulation -- she's not even aware of them yet in THE BUTLERIAN JIHAD. In all other instances, lasgun and shield both explode"

Lamest explanation for a blatant inconsistancy ever!

How is that even an explaination?? Prescient powers allowed her to inhibit an explosion?? Do they even know what Prescient means?

Thats like saying Superman's sense of smell is what allows him to stop bullets.

[A Thing of Eternity]

Norma's prescient powers nullified a part of the lasgun-hitting-shield effect

Am I forgetting something? I don't remember this happening. It doesn;t even sound like it's supposed to make sense.

Oh yeah, its on their "official" FAQ page:

"In THE BUTLERIAN JIHAD, when Holtzman and Norma are testing the las-gun/shield interaction for the first time, only the shield generator explodes. In previous books both las-gun and shield were destroyed. Can you explain this?"

"Norma herself has certain untapped powers of prescient manipulation -- she's not even aware of them yet in THE BUTLERIAN JIHAD. In all other instances, lasgun and shield both explode"

Lamest explanation for a blatant inconsistancy ever!

How is that even an explaination?? Prescient powers allowed her to inhibit an explosion?? Do they even know what Prescient means?

Thats like saying Superman's sense of smell is what allows him to stop bullets.

Yup, that's about it eh?

[BH]

Thats like saying Superman's sense of smell is what allows him to stop bullets.

Yup, that's about it eh?

I'am so glad that you guys are finally getting it! Even that Telilax Hamster guy seems to be understanding it now. I knew I would like signing up here!

[SandChigger]

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Telelax...read some today!

[orald]

I had such a nice post made, but the power failed and I lost it.

One of the things was...

(shooting a slave wearing a shield)

Talk about kicking the dog.

[Phaedrus]

:shock:



NEW FROM HERBERT LACTOSE PRODUCTS!

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Telelax...read some today!

In an update on the old "evil vs. stupid?" debate, I've decided that while you're definitely not stupid, you're rather evil.

Not that that's a bad thing.

[SandChigger]

I think I may meet a certain person's (initials: B.M.) definition of "ignorant" though!

[Lundse]

I was actually going to call them on the shock wave and noise thing over at DN but decided against it. A big enough explosion would send tonnes of shrapnel and debris flying, could be considered a shockwave.

To nitpick a bit: it would be wrong to call that a shockwave. A shockwave is a kind of wave and a wave propagates in a medium. A wall of shrapnel is... a wall of shrapnell.
But it's on the smaller scale of errors, and can be forgiven as simple ignorance about science matters (which, for a SF writer in the tradition including Frank Herbert, would make it at least a medium-sized error).

[A Thing of Eternity]

I was actually going to call them on the shock wave and noise thing over at DN but decided against it. A big enough explosion would send tonnes of shrapnel and debris flying, could be considered a shockwave.

To nitpick a bit: it would be wrong to call that a shockwave. A shockwave is a kind of wave and a wave propagates in a medium. A wall of shrapnel is... a wall of shrapnell.
But it's on the smaller scale of errors, and can be forgiven as simple ignorance about science matters (which, for a SF writer in the tradition including Frank Herbert, would make it at least a medium-sized error).

I know, I'm being too lenient when I say "could be considered" but I decided not to press the point because that's similar to what they would come up as a BS answer anyway. I shouldn't let them off on stuff like that, but it gets kinda tiring arguing with people who just don't get it.

[Hunchback Jack]

Pardon my ignorance, but can someone post the quote stating that both lasgun and shield generator are destroyed? My impression was that a lasgun bolt intersecting a shield just caused a big (cf. atomic) bang.

If the gun and generator were in immediate proximity to the intersection, well then sure, they'd be toast.

HBJ,
not arguing, just asking for the info.

[Freakzilla]

Jessica focused her mind on lasguns, wondering. The white-hot beams of
disruptive light could cut through any known substance, provided that substance
was not shielded. The fact that feedback from a shield would explode both lasgun
and shield did not bother the Harkonnens. Why? A lasgun-shield explosion was a
dangerous variable, could be more powerful than atomics, could kill only the
gunner and his shielded target.
~Dune

[SandChigger]

can someone post the quote stating that both lasgun and shield generator are destroyed?

One is glad to be of service:

Jessica focused her mind on lasguns, wondering. The white-hot beams of disruptive light could cut through any known substance, provided that substance was not shielded. The fact that feedback from a shield would explode both lasgun and shield did not bother the Harkonnens. Why? A lasgun-shield explosion was a dangerous variable, could be more powerful than atomics, could kill only the gunner and his shielded target.

That last is an interesting bit that often gets overlooked: The lasgun-shield interaction did not always lead to an atomic explosion.

But it did always destroy BOTH lasgun and shield.

(Still no saving Norma and Uncle Tio in the REAL Duniverse. In the KJAlphaverse, anything's possible. )

[SandChigger]

Dammit Freak!

[Freakzilla]

F34R ME!