Why the K&B books are not consistent with the originals.

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Postby GamePlayer » 03 Jul 2008 10:12

Lundse wrote:Dune's triumph is that it is a very cool, melodramatic space opera with a believable universe and ditto characters, and at the same time it is great literature and 'philosophy'.

K&B's failure is that they are strip mining the respect surrounding the originals for 'credibility' in order to make pulp books about action scenes and hyper-extra-reversed-evil-double-[insert cool stuff from original here].
This makes them failures as writers, and as decent human beings, IMHO.


Wow! I think I'm in love :) :wink: :lol:

Excellent post. I couldn't agree more.

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Postby Secher Nbiw » 03 Jul 2008 10:27

loremaster wrote: I do not often defend the prequels, but here i have to. Frank sold us:

a man fusing with a worm to become a worm/man hybrid,
little pug-nosed grey skinned aliens
who genetically engineer dogs for chairs.
Trees which grow into homes according to the whim of the owner.
women being made into tanks to clone humans.
etc etc


I don't think that is fair. You can pull everything into the realm of ridicule, with incredible ease, deconstructing it to an insanely simplistic level.

Rosa Parks can end up being just "some rebellious teen who sat on a bus".

A worm hybrid might sound silly if you take just the very basic idea. When you strip away everything around it to make it into as concise a summary of the physical as possible, you end up with some guy who became half-man half-worm.

But Frank never paints that simplistic image. Leto is a man who sacrificed his body and soul to save humanity from itself.

But you are right about the excecution.

Norma Cenva never becomes anything other than a superficial deus ex machina. She is just ridicilously powerful in the setting of Dune. Nobody ever displayed the ability to reshape his or her body by force of will, nobody lived as long as she did, nobody was able to pick something up and dump it in another universe.

The Bene Gesserit all of a sudden being able to turn invisible and whatnot, it's thrown at us when nothing in the originals ever supports those abilities. the Sisterhood's abilities all seem very real, because everybody can mimic those abilities with proper training. Only Other Memory is something truly fantastical and that, Frank plucked from Jungian theories on how we as a species work subconciously and Eastern Philosophy.

You can't really transforms the witches of Rossak into anything other than fireball hurling telepaths who use telekinesis to get what they want.

With Frank Herbert's originals you have to take everything out of context to make them into something that sounds silly, with Pinky and the Brain, you have to construct something eleborate around something to make it into something more than the lame minimum.

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Postby loremaster » 03 Jul 2008 12:41

Secher Nbiw wrote:
loremaster wrote: I do not often defend the prequels, but here i have to. Frank sold us:

a man fusing with a worm to become a worm/man hybrid,
little pug-nosed grey skinned aliens
who genetically engineer dogs for chairs.
Trees which grow into homes according to the whim of the owner.
women being made into tanks to clone humans.
etc etc


I don't think that is fair. You can pull everything into the realm of ridicule, with incredible ease, deconstructing it to an insanely simplistic level.

Rosa Parks can end up being just "some rebellious teen who sat on a bus".

A worm hybrid might sound silly if you take just the very basic idea. When you strip away everything around it to make it into as concise a summary of the physical as possible, you end up with some guy who became half-man half-worm.

But Frank never paints that simplistic image. Leto is a man who sacrificed his body and soul to save humanity from itself.

But you are right about the excecution.

Norma Cenva never becomes anything other than a superficial deus ex machina. She is just ridicilously powerful in the setting of Dune. Nobody ever displayed the ability to reshape his or her body by force of will, nobody lived as long as she did, nobody was able to pick something up and dump it in another universe.

The Bene Gesserit all of a sudden being able to turn invisible and whatnot, it's thrown at us when nothing in the originals ever supports those abilities. the Sisterhood's abilities all seem very real, because everybody can mimic those abilities with proper training. Only Other Memory is something truly fantastical and that, Frank plucked from Jungian theories on how we as a species work subconciously and Eastern Philosophy.

You can't really transforms the witches of Rossak into anything other than fireball hurling telepaths who use telekinesis to get what they want.

With Frank Herbert's originals you have to take everything out of context to make them into something that sounds silly, with Pinky and the Brain, you have to construct something eleborate around something to make it into something more than the lame minimum.


I dont disagree with anything you've said. I think maybe my point about "silliness" hasnt come across well. OR people are possibly being just a little bit pedantic. My point is clear enough.

The fusing of leto with sandtrout is no more biologically feasible than the fusing of 7 worms into one conservation-of-mass-defying super worm.

But like we say, execution.

Phaedrus - I disagree, fusing with worms is a silly preschool idea, you see similar ideas reiterated time and time again in power rangers-esque childrens programmes. So are chairdogs. Are you really telling me the idea of a fur recliner sofa with a wagging tail on one arm and a canine head on another arent silly? (yes yes i know that isnt what it was, but i can bet over a substantial number of readers have imagined this at some point or another)

Referring to my earlier question (and possibly starting a topic on its own) - do you think that, given the P+tB outline and forced to write to it, Frank could have conjured something more profound and spectacular. Even if he was using the same recipe?

I'm sure of it. Thats why i think it is possible quite a few of the ideas may have been in the notes.
The HLP hasnt released Frank's notes yet, Brian hasn't got the handwriting quite right!

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Postby Phaedrus » 03 Jul 2008 14:30

loremaster wrote:Phaedrus - I disagree, fusing with worms is a silly preschool idea, you see similar ideas reiterated time and time again in power rangers-esque childrens programmes. So are chairdogs. Are you really telling me the idea of a fur recliner sofa with a wagging tail on one arm and a canine head on another arent silly? (yes yes i know that isnt what it was, but i can bet over a substantial number of readers have imagined this at some point or another)


I don't think either idea is silly. The way Frank Herbert explained the ideas, at least, isn't silly at all.

A girl developing psychic powers, becoming prescient, then going ethereal and sticking around as an omnipotent goddess for thousands of years, that's pretty silly.

Referring to my earlier question (and possibly starting a topic on its own) - do you think that, given the P+tB outline and forced to write to it, Frank could have conjured something more profound and spectacular. Even if he was using the same recipe?

I'm sure of it. Thats why i think it is possible quite a few of the ideas may have been in the notes.


Of course he could have. He was a better writer. That's like asking if Van Gogh could draw a better picture than a 4-year old with crayons.

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Postby Freakzilla » 03 Jul 2008 14:47

I don't think Leto II's transformation is that far out. The way I see it, he was never "fused" with the sandtrout, they just covered him and their cilia dug into his body. He still had something left of his human form when the sandtrout seperated from him:

They turned and looked into the cave shadows at Leto.
Leto could not even imagine what they saw. The sandtrout skin was gone, he knew.
There would be some kind of surface pocked with cilia holes from the departed
skin. As for the rest, he could only look back at the two figures from a
universe furrowed by sorrow. Through the vision flames he saw Siona as a female
demon. The demon name came unbidden to his minds and he spoke it aloud,
amplified by the cave and much louder than he had expected:
"Hanmya!"
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Postby SandChigger » 03 Jul 2008 21:36

Hmm...even I'm feeling a bit bristly at the use of "preschool". :wink:

Sure, there are elements in FH's Duniverse that are impossible or highly improbable ("silly") in real world terms.

The P&B (Proctologer & Braindead?) books introduce elements that are impossible and highly improbable in both real world AND Duniverse terms. :roll:
"Let the dead give water to the dead. As for me, it's NO MORE FUCKING TEARS!"

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Turns out there is a perfect answer to all objections...

Postby Lundse » 04 Jul 2008 17:04

From the board admin Byron, of Dunenovels.com, when asked why they changed Paul's birthplace. The answer can of course be applied to any question regarding inconsistencies.

boardadmin wrote:And one of Frank's prime themes is to question what you know ...or think you know.



I motion that we retire Jacurutu and all head to Dunenovels, certainly there is no longer any doubt that Briand and Kevin are the legitimate literary heirs of Frank Herbert and we should all be grateful to be under the direct control of the genius quoted above.

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Postby Omphalos » 04 Jul 2008 19:07

I am so tired of hte crap from over there.

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Postby GamePlayer » 04 Jul 2008 19:59

"That's the beauty of debate; if you debate correctly, you're never wrong."

That's why I left DN. I'm not going to waste my time running vicious circles with that convention of genetic defectives. The HLP's got a nice little pyramid scheme running in the dead author exploitation market and they even got a salesman running the show that believes his own bullshit. As long as there's a place where people can learn about the scam, a place with a dissenting opinion and the facts to back it up, that's all we can do to combat the mediocrity.

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Postby SandChigger » 04 Jul 2008 20:40

Here, HERE! ;)
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Postby Apjak » 05 Jul 2008 01:18

Speaking of genetic defectives, perhaps with a guided breeding program given 90 generations...

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Postby Seraphan » 05 Jul 2008 08:39

GamePlayer wrote:"That's the beauty of debate; if you debate correctly, you're never wrong."

That's why I left DN. I'm not going to waste my time running vicious circles with that convention of genetic defectives. The HLP's got a nice little pyramid scheme running in the dead author exploitation market and they even got a salesman running the show that believes his own bullshit. As long as there's a place where people can learn about the scam, a place with a dissenting opinion and the facts to back it up, that's all we can do to combat the mediocrity.


Amen, same reason i left that place. It's also so claustrofobic in those forums, it's like you cant talk bad about the authors because they're newborns and you cant make noise because their still asleep. It's so...so...politicly correct in there it makes me chafe, i prefer it here where fans have the freedom to say that the new novels are shit in its purest form and that beating a dead horse actually makes money :beat dead horse: (refering to the authors repeting themselves in the novels). Hail Jacurutu!
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Postby GamePlayer » 05 Jul 2008 10:38

That is an unfortunate by-product of our current society. Almost everyone, and the HLP in particular, is so shielded and unchallenged socially by political correctness that they act like a child when criticized. Gawd forbid fans should actually raise their voice in protest or (oh dear me) curse at the authors to voice extreme dissatisfaction, because we might upset or offend the poor, poor authors. :roll:

But that's the society we're creating, where it's damned near illegal to upset or offend anyone. If they are yelled at or fiercely berated, they all get defensive and can't cope, like it's the end of the world because someone yelled at them! They then invent terms like "talifan" to assuage the fears of their delicate little minds.

KJA: Well, no one would yell at me or curse at me if they weren't a terrorist, right? Right? Oh woe is me to be the target of these hateful, unpatriotic, un-American fans who luckily are the minority. Yes, that's how I'll justify myself. I'm a victim! FEEL SORRY FOR ME!

:laughing:

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Postby Lundse » 05 Jul 2008 10:47

GamePlayer wrote:Gawd forbid fans should actually raise their voice in protest or (oh dear me) curse at the authors to voice extreme dissatisfaction, because we might upset or offend the poor, poor authors. :roll:


Amen.

Another 'trick' I have noticed is to isolate each instance of critique: well, it is only the birthplace of one person, 3 weeks of his life, how much can that matter? Clearly you are being hysterical!

And when the next item of critique comes up, that too is below the threshold - as if books were not accumulations of details...

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Postby GamePlayer » 05 Jul 2008 11:00

By now, I'm sure KJA and the HLP have refined their anti-criticism defense to a sickeningly, self-deluded fine point. Based on just the few quotes I've read of KJA/BH interviews, they have mastered the art of the politician's "non-answer" when confronted with an upsetting question.

But like I said before, in many ways we've ourselves to blame. I've read few widely published, non-internet criticism's of the HLP and KJA's "work" in peer review. Everyone is too damned concerned about remaining low profile, not upsetting anyone, remaining fearful of frivolous litigation or critics colluding for mutual financial gain. In such a climate, the worst hacks in all our industries (from literature, to film, to music) can go virtually unhindered. Just 20-30 years ago a hack like KJA would have been thrown into the street on his ass and chewed up by a proper system of checks and balances. In today's society of celebrated mediocrity, even a talentless "writer" such as himself can shill his bullshit for publication and even receive "awards" for his "work".

I weep for the future :)

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Postby orald » 05 Jul 2008 11:33

GamePlayer wrote:I weep for the future :)

That's a wierd way of weeping. :?

In today's society? So all the cheap movies/books/music from the 70's-80's(i.e "20-30 years ago") have never existed?

Society has always been(and will be?) flooded by mostly shit, since most people are shit. Simple as that.


Oh, and regarding PC, don't let 'em faggot niggers and kikes tell ya what to say, ya hear? :evil:
In memory of Perach, who suffered and died needlessly.

I wish I could have been with you that one last time.

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Postby GamePlayer » 05 Jul 2008 12:38

Degree dear orald, degree. An inevitable amount of chaff will always be in our crops, but that's no excuse. Times have been different. There was a time in our society when being a man was someone who was polite, well dressed in a suit/hat and opened the door for his ladies. Nowadays anyone well dressed or polite is considered gay and being a man is determined by how much of a neandertal act is performed to convince all one's fellow apes that one isn't homosexual.

Our current society is obsessed with breeding mediocrity and twas not always so. It's not a glorification of the past or the "good ol' days" remembered fondly through rose-colored glasses. I wouldn't surrender the freedoms of today for the comfortable cradle of our history. But not all present is progress and we've much to learn from our past.

Ya feel me, my nigga? :)

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Postby orald » 05 Jul 2008 12:59

Opening the door for ladies? Ain't that just a subtle way to let them know we have the power to move them in/out of places, a show of patriarchial dominance? :x

Who's with me? LiquidBlue? :wink:

A real way to pay respect is to whack them to show we know and appriciate their streangth.
Read Terry Goodkind. Mord Sith FTW, lol. :lol:
In memory of Perach, who suffered and died needlessly.



I wish I could have been with you that one last time.

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Postby loremaster » 05 Jul 2008 14:08

Isnt it fremen (and im sure a longstanding philosophical point who say) we should reward strength (excellence) rather than supporting weakness (mediocrity)?.
The HLP hasnt released Frank's notes yet, Brian hasn't got the handwriting quite right!

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Postby Phaedrus » 05 Jul 2008 14:10

The basic rule is this: Never support weakness; always support strength.

-The Bene Gesserit Coda
You aren't thinking or really existing unless you're willing to risk even your own sanity in the judgment of your existence.

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Postby orald » 05 Jul 2008 14:30

Phaedrus wrote:The basic rule is this: Never support weakness; always support strength.

-The Bene Gesserit Coda


Oh yea?

Spend energies on those who make you strong. Energy spent on weaklings drags
you to doom. (HM rule) Bene Gesserit Commentary: Who judges?
-The Dortujla Record
In memory of Perach, who suffered and died needlessly.



I wish I could have been with you that one last time.

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Postby Seraphan » 05 Jul 2008 14:58

Now that's what i call a "touché with class"
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Postby GamePlayer » 05 Jul 2008 15:47

orald wrote:Opening the door for ladies? Ain't that just a subtle way to let them know we have the power to move them in/out of places, a show of patriarchial dominance? :x [/size] :lol:


It's your worst nightmare :)

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Postby orald » 06 Jul 2008 09:59

GamePlayer wrote:It's your worst nightmare :)

Uh...? :?
In memory of Perach, who suffered and died needlessly.



I wish I could have been with you that one last time.

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Postby Seraphan » 06 Jul 2008 11:59

By the way i dont know if this inconsistancy has been pointed but, well since i'm here. In the original novels Ix is said to be on the rims of the empirium, kinda like just outside the border so to speak (i think it is said in Dune Messiah), where they make technological advances away from official eyes, like the Tleilaxu. BUT in the prequels it's a planet that's INSIDE the Impirium and it is ruled by a House, i can hardly say this is simply a detail since its changing the Duniverse that was estabilshed. How can the authors say their introducing new readers into the Duniverse when they are actually changing things with newcomers get confused all the time, that is what really ticked me off about the new novels.
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"The beginning of knowledge is the discovery of something we do not understand." - Frank Herbert
“This tutoring is dialectical. Literature makes us better noticers of life; we get to practice on life itself; which in turn makes us better readers of detail in literature; which in turn makes us better readers of life. And so on and on.” - James Wood