Arafel and the impossible 'return of the Jihad'.

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Lundse
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Arafel and the impossible 'return of the Jihad'.

Postby Lundse » 02 Jul 2008 16:56

Now, I know that B&K have more or less come out and said that Leto II was just a big baddie who did not understand that heroes, blind trust and concentrating power are all very nifty things (especially when done with explosions, super-duper-spice and evil clones).

But - for those of us who are not willing to dismiss what Frank himself wrote rather specifically, I submit that the entire 'return of the Jihad/Skynet/Matrix overlords' plot is explicitly against the following:

"Do not fear the lxians [...] They can make the machines, but they no longer can make arafel. I know. I was there."


In other words - humanity will not, because of his actions, be overrun and threatened by extinction from a machine threat.


As I see it, the remaining two books are then about the enhanced face dancers, who have become something close to godlike (Marty and Daniel) - they pose a different threat because they can evolve along with the infinite universe.
This means they can 'overtake' humans, who also have the ability to adapt 'organically', which is why a humanity tied to machine-thinking will be heading for a dead end.
Incidently, this shows us that in a way, Leto II's struggle was really a escalation of the Jihad, he was trying to make sure humanity was thrust beyond the reach of any mechanical enemy (and any prescient one).

Duncan dumping all knowledge of their whereabouts is the necessary new beginning which puts them 100% out of reach of M&D - there is nothing tying them to the old empire, nor the scattered.

Whew...

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Postby SandChigger » 02 Jul 2008 19:10

Have to agree with Baraka Bryan on this one.
"Let the dead give water to the dead. As for me, it's NO MORE FUCKING TEARS!"

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Postby Mr. Teg » 02 Jul 2008 21:12

I think page 42 GEoD is very interesting...

That lasgun is no more than a machine. But all machines fail or are superceded...

Moneo returned to a point below Leto, holding the disabled lasgun casually in his right hand. "There is talk on Parella and the planets of Dan about another jihad against such things as this."

Moneo lifted the lasgun and smiled, signaling that he knew the paradox in such empty dreams....

Jihads create armies (plural). The Butlerian Jihad tried to rid our universe of machines which simulate the mind of man. The Butlerians left armies in their wake and the Ixians still make questionable devices...


The whole page is talking about technology and how technology affects society, classic Frank Herbert, not a Terminator War which is entirely different (Us vs Them).

I really don't see any gray area after reading this page.

You could remove Dune from the title and make the robots giant ants and nothing would fundamentally have changed except the sales figures.
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Postby SandChigger » 02 Jul 2008 22:30

Sarcasm will get you...somewhere. :twisted:
"Let the dead give water to the dead. As for me, it's NO MORE FUCKING TEARS!"

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Postby HoosierDaddy » 02 Jul 2008 22:50

From GEOD (highlights mine):

Anteac's voice was frigidly controlled. "Will Ix make a mechanical brain?"
"A brain`? Of course not!"
Luyseyal appeared to relax, but Anteac remained unmoving. She was not satisfied
with the Oracle.
Why is it that foolishness repeats itself with such monotonous precision? Leto
wondered. His memories offered up countless scenes to match this one-caverns,
priests and priestesses caught up in holy ecstasy, portentous voices delivering
dangerous prophecies through the smoke of holy narcotics.
He glanced down at the iridescent vial on the ledge beside Moneo. What was the
current value of that thing`? Enormous. It was the essence. Concentrated wealth
concentrated.
"You have already paid the Oracle," he said. "It amuses me to give you full
value."
How alert the women became!
"Hear me!" he said. "What you fear is not what you fear."
Leto liked the sound of that. Sufficiently portentous for any Oracle. Anteac and
Luyseyal stared up at him, dutiful supplicants. Behind them, an acolyte cleared
her throat.
That one will be identified and reprimanded later, Leto thought.
Anteac had now had sufficient time to ruminate on Leto's words. She said: "An
obscure truth is not the truth."
"But I have directed your attention correctly," Leto said.
"Are you telling us not to fear the machine?" Luyseyal asked.
"You have the power of reason.," he said. "Why come begging to me?"
"But we do not have your powers," Anteac said.
"You complain then that you do not sense the gossamer waves of Time. You do not
sense my continuum. And you fear a mere machine!"
"Then you will not answer us," Anteac said.
"Do not make the mistake of thinking me ignorant about your Sisterhood's ways,"
he said. "You are alive. Your senses are exquisitely tuned. I do not stop this,
nor should you."
"But the lxians play with automation!" Anteac protested.
"Discrete pieces, finite bits linked one to another," he agreed. "Once set in
motion, what is to stop it?"
Luyseyal discarded all pretense of Bene Gesserit self-control, a fine comment on
her recognition of Leto's powers. Her voice almost screeched: "Do you know what
the lxians boast? That their machine will predict your actions!"
"Why should I fear that? The closer they come to me, the
more they must be my allies. They cannot conquer me, but I can conquer them."
Anteac made to speak but stopped when Luyseyal touched her arm.
"Are you already allied with Ix?" Luyseyal asked. "We hear that you conferred
overlong with their new Ambassador, this Hwi Noree."
"I have no allies," he said. "Only servants, students and enemies."
"And you do not fear the lxians' machine?" Anteac insisted.
"Is automation synonymous with conscious intelligence?" he asked.
Anteac's eyes went wide and filmy as she withdrew into her memories. Leto found
himself caught by fascination with what she must be encountering there within
her own internal mob.
We share some of those memories, he thought.
Leto felt then the seductive attraction of community with Reverend Mothers. It
would be so familiar, so supportive. . . and so deadly. Anteac was trying to
lure him once more.
She spoke: "The machine cannot anticipate every problem of importance to humans.
It is the difference between serial bits and an unbroken continuum. We have the
one; machines are confined to the other."
"You still have the power of reason," he said.

"Share!" Luyseyal said. It was a command to Anteac and it revealed with sharp
abruptness who really dominated this pair-the younger over the older.
Exquisite, Leto thought.
"Intelligence adapts," Anteac said.
Parsimonious with her words, too, Leto thought, hiding his amusement.
"Intelligence creates," Leto said. "That means you must deal with responses
never before imagined. You must confront the new."
"Such as the possibility of the Ixian Machine," Anteac said. It was not a
question.
"Isn't it interesting," Leto asked, "that being a superb Reverend Mother is not
enough?"


P&tB bringing back thinking machines to the Duniverse sequels is one of the cheapest rip-offs in sci-fi history IMO. The easy, unoriginal way out. The HLP, by publishing these sequels, spit on Frank Herbert's name, and all that he created.

What these poor excuses for writers couldn't do is to come up with anything original. Which makes me strongly believe that the FH "notes" were either a complete lie, or were so vague that they were worthless.

Marty and Daniel were not machines. They were clearly evolved face dancers. And I will forever hate BH/KA for publishing anything with the title of Dune on it. Those two stupid fucking idiots, along with the entire HLP, publishing this utter crap with the old man's name on it.

BH must have hated his father. There is no other explanation for what he has done.

:endrant

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Postby A Thing of Eternity » 02 Jul 2008 22:53

I don't know if I would have worded it that nicely... :wink:
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Postby Lundse » 03 Jul 2008 02:55

I see your points that another machine threat could conceivably return - while the Ixian 'Arafel' has been averted. Two points remain, though:

1. This still means that any all all support drawn from GEoD regarding Frank thinking in terms of directly life threatening machines is gone. Any mention of machines in in Frank's writing become irrelevant regarding Omnious et al (who names these guys, Omnius? Makes me think of General Grevious).
It also suggest K&B did not read and understand (at least) GEoD and that by the end of this book, Frank himself was 'done with' that idea.

2. Thematically, it makes no fucking sense. The machine-death has been averted, but wait, here is another machine! Not that K&B or their fans seem to be aware that books can have themes, messages and thoughtful reflections.


Also, though it is not evident within only the Arafel quote, the Golden Path is a way to scatter humanity so no mechanistic/deterministic threat can get to them. The danger averted is not only Ixian devices, but (through Siona genes) prescience and concentration around one location and power structure.
As shown later, the only danger is a new human jump ahead, a new kind of concentration of human based power; the new face dancers.

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Postby Freakzilla » 03 Jul 2008 08:05

I think Pinky & The Brian are not deep enough or do not have the desire to understand even the most basic themes, much less the deeper meanings.

"Special effects are free in books!"

I still can't believe they actually said that.
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Postby A Thing of Eternity » 03 Jul 2008 11:16

Those are the words they used?! I knew they said something about special effects, but that's really funny.
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Postby Freakzilla » 03 Jul 2008 11:24

It was something like that, that's not a direct quote.
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Postby Freakzilla » 03 Jul 2008 11:27

K: My aim with this series is to tell a long, epic story that fits on the shelf between DUNE and STAR WARS (both of which I've practiced quite a lot) — the series has politics and consequences and subtle schemes . . . as well as colorful planets, exotic alien races, glorious space battles. I like to leverage the fact that I have an unlimited special effects budget.


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Re: Arafel and the impossible 'return of the Jihad'.

Postby Tleilax Master B » 03 Jul 2008 11:51

bryanvdk wrote:
Lundse wrote:
"Do not fear the lxians [...] They can make the machines, but they no longer can make arafel. I know. I was there."



edit: quoted properly (wtf is with me messing that up lately?!?!)

not that i'd defend the hacks and what they've written, but that quote doesn't actually preclude what they've written as a possible return of thinking machines. Leto II states that the ixians cannot make arafel, but that doesn't mean it couldn't be a returning threat from outside the old empire as they suggest.

that being said, we all know M&D were advanced face dancers, not a machine threat and sure as hell not something out of star wars wannabe land


I agree. Quite frankly, I can't stand the idea of the Return of Thinking Machines and seriously doubt there was ever an intention by Frank to do that. SFDs present a whole new challenge, and one that requires a different kind of thinking by the reader IMHO. They don't NEED to be hell bent on destroying all humans or any other such nonsense.

Quite frankly, I think one can make the argument that facedancers ARE a type of human, and that fits just fine with Leto's GP.
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Postby orald » 03 Jul 2008 12:06

Lol, he's even lamer than I thought.

the series has politics and consequences[ :roll: ] and subtle schemes . . . as well as colorful planets, exotic alien races(uhh...? :? ), glorious space battles.


TMB wrote:Quite frankly, I think one can make the argument that facedancers ARE a type of human, and that fits just fine with Leto's GP.

Being a "colony" of personas(sp? too tired to check a dictionary) they're quite close to RM's, or even to understanding Leto somewhat.

We might've even found out they had worthy goals(of course, with Frank it's "the road to hell is paved with good intentions" :P ) if FH had lived to write Dune 7.

They might not have been such "enemies" at all.
In memory of Perach, who suffered and died needlessly.

I wish I could have been with you that one last time.

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Postby orald » 03 Jul 2008 12:42

I was serious- I mean, sure, they might be the antagonists and all, but they might be "good" antagonists. They might very well be trying to guide mankind like the BG or God Leto, but ignoring God Leto's lesson that all control over mankind is bad for its servival.
In memory of Perach, who suffered and died needlessly.



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Postby Tleilax Master B » 03 Jul 2008 13:47

orald wrote:I was serious- I mean, sure, they might be the antagonists and all, but they might be "good" antagonists. They might very well be trying to guide mankind like the BG or God Leto, but ignoring God Leto's lesson that all control over mankind is bad for its servival.


My impressions were that they were neutral. That they were face dancers free of Master's controls and had become independent. And then, perhaps in a quest for knowledge, had absorbed so many personas of different types (mentats, RMs, Masters, etc.) that they had this incredible wealth of experiences. Perhaps this just stimulated more thirst for knowledge, thus the reason they had "picked out a planet" to test and observe Duncan and the gang. They still clearly had a special sort of respect for Masters (as indicated by the comment that they don't like stomping them down). I've said all along, I don't think they are benevolent or malicious, or necessarily have any overly amibitious interest in the human race in general. Certainly having the abilities of a mentat, a reverend mother (and presumably absorbed all of their OMs), a Bene Tleilax, etc. makes you inherently powerful; but their motivations could be nothing more than knowledge and self-improvement.
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Postby HoosierDaddy » 03 Jul 2008 13:58

orald wrote:I was serious- I mean, sure, they might be the antagonists and all, but they might be "good" antagonists. They might very well be trying to guide mankind like the BG or God Leto, but ignoring God Leto's lesson that all control over mankind is bad for its servival.


The whole situation revolves around power IMO. If the BG/HM/Guild knew that the SFD's were running the show in the scattering, there would be a battle for that power base, no matter how well they were doing.

I've always thought that FH's SFD's also controlled Ixian no-ships. The SFD's would be quite powerless unless they also controlled human transport in the scattering. And how did Duncan sense Marty and Daniel's "net"? Inside an Ixian no-ship **from the scattering** (Teg's idea from HOD).

:smoke: