Paul of Dune spoilers

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Postby SandChigger » 17 Oct 2008 20:38

Trang, I started to download the clip(?!), but at over 100 MB, it'll have to wait till Monday from the office! :D

There's even less proof for the existence of that concordance than there is for the "Dune 7" outline. (I think Kevin has written somewhere that it's about a thousand pages long. :roll: ) Just more of their Irulan-style myth-making.

I took PoD to bed with me last night and skimmed some more before/after sleep. (I still can't bring myself to sit down and read it from cover to cover. Bleh. Complete shite is right!)


Some things I came across or which occurred to me:

* Has anyone mentioned this: If Dune is Star Wars to Kevin, then the Swordmasters of Ginaz are the Jedi? (At least their male equivalent. The BG represent a female version, obviously.)

* There's an epigraph by a "Jongleur artiste". No such animals ever mentioned by FH.

* Evidently yelling like a woman is the worst thing the Hacks can imagine a man doing: they have Korba do it as well in the final dinner assassination scene.

* From Dune Messiah:

Paul stared down at his own body: hard muscles, slender...a few more scars, but essentially the same despite twelve years as Emperor.

Odd there's NO MENTION WHATSOEVER of the REALLY BIG SCAR he should have there on his chest from being stabbed nearly to death by Fenring, no?

* Dr Ereboam on gholas (p.373):

Our battlefield harvesters take cells from fallen warriors, even intact bodies if they are reparable.

From FH's books it appears more that the BT had to have the whole body to repair and make a ghola from, not just a few cells. (This has been discussed before. Obviously the Hacks don't agree.)

* On the permeability of shields (and falling off cliffs into rivers) (p.411):

Rabban spat forcefully at [Duncan], but the wad of spittle struck [sic] to the inside of his personal shield and went no farther, dripping and sparkling against the invisible barrier.
...
...Rabban fell, dropping into the foamy white torrent below.
Gurney shouted, more in disappointment than concern. The two men stood watching as Rabban flailed helplessly in the sweeping water, narrowly missing one of the wet dark boulders, and was swept tumbling down the cold stream. His shield continued to shimmer, protecting him from rocks, but he could still drown.

I thought we decided a few days back that shields weren't gas-permeable (the Baron keeping his on a low setting, remember?), even if one would function immersed in water. (Or protect you from a fall like that.) If relatively slow-moving spit won't penetrate a shield, why would the rushing waters of a "torrent"? Another failure to really think through the technology. (Surprise, surprise!)

* Observation: they supposedly grafted the three "Young Paul" sections onto their epic Muad'Dib Jihad tale to show how the "Young Paul" became the Paul of Dune and later. I'm not seeing it, myself. Reads to me more like they didn't have enough battle descriptions and intrigue and plods within plods showing how the HERO at the end of Dune becomes the DARK TYRANT of Messiah to fill an entire book.
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Postby trang » 17 Oct 2008 22:53

I ran the video at the second link, didn't have to download it. Is that because your overseas?

And I agree with everything you said from the book. The final assassination scene is one of the most laughable in the whole book. That was what scene 3 or 4 of assassinations in the book??

I know you haven't read the whole thing, but where in any of it is there any indications of the PAUL from DUNE to this dark tyrant in their book, that is supposed to define him??? it isn't there, this book is House Atreides: Paul's early years. They only do lip service to his feelings on the Jihad, his prescient visions, etc.

I'm going to have to go back and count the pages dedicated to his early years, the fennring arc, the emperor arc, the harkonnen arc, the bludd arc, there isn't much left.

I just feel that Dune Messiah explains everything about paul, as does the further story in COD. It might be subtle but it is there and clear as day to me, there was no need for this dam book.

maybe someone else see's something in the book that even remotely does what P&B are talking about, even if its a sliver. I'm not wanting offer them any quarter, just someone else tell me I'm missing some thing.

Thanks,
Trang
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Postby SandChigger » 18 Oct 2008 01:08

(Re the video: Nah. I wanted to download it and have a copy, possibly for transcription or extracting sound clips from later. ;) )
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Postby Frybread » 18 Oct 2008 14:01

trang wrote:I ran the video at the second link, didn't have to download it. Is that because your overseas?

And I agree with everything you said from the book. The final assassination scene is one of the most laughable in the whole book. That was what scene 3 or 4 of assassinations in the book??

I know you haven't read the whole thing, but where in any of it is there any indications of the PAUL from DUNE to this dark tyrant in their book, that is supposed to define him??? it isn't there, this book is House Atreides: Paul's early years. They only do lip service to his feelings on the Jihad, his prescient visions, etc.

I'm going to have to go back and count the pages dedicated to his early years, the fennring arc, the emperor arc, the harkonnen arc, the bludd arc, there isn't much left.

I just feel that Dune Messiah explains everything about paul, as does the further story in COD. It might be subtle but it is there and clear as day to me, there was no need for this dam book.

maybe someone else see's something in the book that even remotely does what P&B are talking about, even if its a sliver. I'm not wanting offer them any quarter, just someone else tell me I'm missing some thing.

Thanks,
Trang


I agree with your assessment. PoD, unfortunately, has too many arcs going and, IMO, does not focus enough on the Jihad years it was advertised to do.

Overall, I'd say the book is unsurprisingly disappointing.

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Postby SandChigger » 18 Oct 2008 17:00

I reread the audience chamber attack and judgement and execution of Bludd passages.

You know how your body's sensory/perceptual systems are geared to accustom you to unpleasant sensations over time? Like, how you gradually get used to a bad smell and stop noticing it after a while?

Well that completely breaks down with this book. The smell never goes away. In fact, the more you read, the worse it gets! :evil:

I mean, the crowd yelling, "Bad Bludd! Bad Bludd!"...WTF is that? I can't recall having read anything more childish or stupid in a book supposedly written for adults in my life.

Anyway, about Paul's truthsense: it seems to be something honored in principle (it gets mentioned) but not in use. Let's see....

* When one of the "Priests of Dur" accused of trying to defile Leto's shrine protests his innocence ("I was on religious sabbatical!"), there's no mention of Paul's truthsense at all, whether he knows the man is telling the truth or lying.

* There's mention of the BG on Wallach IX offering to send truthsayers to help in finding the culprits in some plot or other, but Paul rejects the offer because he can rely on his own truthsense CORRECTION: Sorry, got this bit wrong. They didn't even bother to bring up his truthsense. The reason he gives is that he trusts "witches" less than would-be assassins. :roll:

* Bludd in his "trial" specifically mentions that Paul will know whether he is telling the truth or not. But at the end Paul tells Korba to keep investigating and looking for other conspirators, to confirm whether Bludd is telling the truth or not.

On the hunter-seekers that Bludd used in the assassination attempt: they're described as "bootleg" version of Ixian machines. That's almost as bad as that "buffet line" at the Fremen pool party. And Bludd describes himself as having been caught with his "hand in the cookie jar". :roll:

And as has been mentioned already, Paul's prescience also seems to be on the blink throughout the book. I guess it gets better again by Messiah.

"Unsurprisingly disappointing." Nice one, Frybread! ;)
Last edited by SandChigger on 18 Oct 2008 20:01, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Frybread » 18 Oct 2008 17:07

I don't know who I hate more as a writer. KJA for being a hack or BH for being willing to ruin his father's work for a payday.

And "unsurprisingly disappointing" is my euphemism for "I expected it to be a piece of shit and I was right!"

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Postby trang » 18 Oct 2008 21:37

Chig I know exactly what you mean about the sense think, I had this sick feeling in my stomach the whole time I read the book. I thought it was mostly related to the sadistic blood and gor, I guess I was right. It just leaves you with a bad taste in your mouth.

I also knew I wasnt wrong about paul, its like he is sensory blind or something the whole book. Like you said it magically gets better in messiah.

Havent had time to do the page count, at work starting 4 day 12 hour normal run, will bring it to work tomorrow and run thru it again.

Later,
Trang
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Postby SandChigger » 18 Oct 2008 23:36

This is SUCH BULLSHIT:

Two fuck-ups in PoD on p.343 wrote:His prescient visions were often confusing and rarely literal.

SINCE FUCKING WHEN?!?

His prescient vision is so damned good that later he can function completely without problem with his fucking eyes melted down his face.

Even before he came to Dune he had dream visions that were remarkably detailed and accurate.

"Rarely literal" my hairy trifurcated BT-superjet-enhanced exobiosphere-adapted insectoid ass. :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
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Postby TheDukester » 18 Oct 2008 23:58

The Hiking Hack and His Sidekick wrote:Our "writing" is often confusing and rarely literary.
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Postby inhuien » 19 Oct 2008 05:38

SandChigger wrote:"Rarely literal" my hairy trifurcated BT-superjet-enhanced exobiosphere-adapted insectoid ass. :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

Bravo Sir, again you have outdone yourself :)

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Postby dunaddict » 19 Oct 2008 07:18

SandChigger wrote:This is SUCH BULLSHIT:

Two fuck-ups in PoD on p.343 wrote:His prescient visions were often confusing and rarely literal.

SINCE FUCKING WHEN?!?

His prescient vision is so damned good that later he can function completely without problem with his fucking eyes melted down his face.
Even before he came to Dune he had dream visions that were remarkably detailed and accurate.


This is just dumb with a capital D. It's almost as if they actually try to put as many inconsistencies in their prequels as they can. Bad Brian! Bad Brian!

I think this soundbite from Galaxy Quest is appropriate for these two 'Defilers of Dune': At every turn!!!

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Postby Freakzilla » 19 Oct 2008 09:22

dunaddict wrote:
SandChigger wrote:This is SUCH BULLSHIT:

Two fuck-ups in PoD on p.343 wrote:His prescient visions were often confusing and rarely literal.

SINCE FUCKING WHEN?!?

His prescient vision is so damned good that later he can function completely without problem with his fucking eyes melted down his face.
Even before he came to Dune he had dream visions that were remarkably detailed and accurate.


This is just dumb with a capital D. It's almost as if they actually try to put as many inconsistencies in their prequels as they can. Bad Brian! Bad Brian!

I think this soundbite from Galaxy Quest is appropriate for these two 'Defilers of Dune': At every turn!!!


:shock: Astonishing!

Obviously they didn't read Dune Messiah. Is flying an ornithopter blind literal? Or walking around without bumping into people? This isn't just another detail they missed, it's critical to the whole prescience theme.
Not only did Paul use visions of the future to guide his every movememt, he saw every other possible future as well. So his life wasn't a bore, it was a super mega-bore.
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Postby SandChigger » 19 Oct 2008 10:07

All I know is his life as depicted in this book is a SUPER ULTRA-MEGA-BORE.

:lol:

So much so I've been reading The Praxis this evening.


(I was reading Dune Messiah the other night, but wanted something non-Dune for a change. ;) )
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Postby GamePlayer » 19 Oct 2008 15:22

Wow, that fuck up is almost as bad as Paul's birthplace. Fuck me, Paul's prescient powers were so hyper accurate he could see while physically blind and fight while doing so.

These two have hit an new low.
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Postby Freakzilla » 19 Oct 2008 15:39

I guess it's good enough in their world to have a vague idea of when and where a knife is flying at you from.

:roll:
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Postby SandChigger » 19 Oct 2008 15:49

It will take a thorough reading to determine whether they "explain" it somewhere or not. A bit early for any Dune Tarot nonsense, I should think....
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Postby Seraphan » 19 Oct 2008 18:04

The way these two supposed writters inflict the literary world with cancers is not only criminal against the human mind but also an insult to those great writters that strived through so much to get their great works published.
Blatant inconsistencies mixed with empty meaning and sprinkled with childish prose; it is the only fitting description of this latest horror they've unleashed.
What of the children?! Wont those fuck ups think of the children?!
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Postby SandChigger » 19 Oct 2008 18:42

The language has been causing me to experience a good many more spheencter tweetches than usual, too. I've been trying to mark them with mini PostIts, but here are two from memory:

* The mountains on Jericha described as being "thatched with snow". A house or cottage or hut could appear thatched with snow, but a mountain Mountains don't have roofs.

* Paul's (or maybe Duke Leto's?) voice cutting through the air "like an Arctic wind". (On Dune?!)

(There was one passage I saw where they had "on Arrakeen". ??? Typo for either "in Arrakeen" or "on Arrakis", I guess.)
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Postby TheDukester » 19 Oct 2008 18:49

SandChigger wrote:(There was one passage I saw where they had "on Arrakeen". ??? Typo for either "in Arrakeen" or "on Arrakis", I guess.)

It's odd that the editor didn't catch th-

Oh, wait ... what am I saying? This entire series is produced with "perfect prose" while out communing with the squirrels. Silly me.
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Postby Lisan Al-Gaib » 19 Oct 2008 18:59

Two fuck-ups in PoD on p.343 wrote:His prescient visions were often confusing and rarely literal.



Oh FUCK!

I would like to know the arnoldo and Byron explanation for that...Oh sorry, I forget the boredom over there...
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Postby SimonH » 19 Oct 2008 19:07

I think it is time for another FAQ entry :D

what a fuck up - or is it fuck ups... What a joke these prequels have become.

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Postby Omphalos » 19 Oct 2008 19:24

SimonH wrote:I think it is time for another FAQ entry :D

what a fuck up - or is it fuck ups... What a joke these prequels have become.


Or maybe another e-mail interview for KJA? Id kind of like to hear his anger-tinged reason for saying that. :lol:

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Postby Ampoliros » 20 Oct 2008 01:18

can't we start an inconsistency "debate" page on wiki? I mean, its pretty definite that we can use Dune itself to disprove most of their universe.

I admittedly don't know much about Wiki, so maybe this is already there.

But yeah, I think Kevvy just digs up his rejected scripts, changes the character names around, throws in a few references to Dune, Prescience, worms, etc. and phones it in.
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Postby SandChigger » 20 Oct 2008 01:30

There used to be a page like that, called "Discrepancies between Dune novels", listing

(1) inconsistencies between and within Frank's works (changing description of Navigators, Face Dancer or Master Scytale, Farok's magic arms)

(2) inconsistencies between the originals and new books (take your pick)

(3) inconsistencies between various new books (House Ecaz first led by Prad Vidal [Sassoon?] in Dumb: House Atrocious and later by Armand [Hammer?] Ecaz. Note that in Pile of Dung Prad is the rebel leader captured in a fog tree and beheaded by Duke Leto and Gurney Man)

Since no one has yet published a book or other citable source on this stuff, it can all be shot down as Original Research.

I saved a version of the page on one of my user pages:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:SandC ... crepancies

That's after it had been fairly severely savaged by the Wiki Powers of PC. It looked like it was headed for deletion (it was), so I decided it was time to save what was left for posterity. ;)
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Postby SandChigger » 20 Oct 2008 03:59

Egeneto de en tais hémerais...

And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Emperor Muad'Dib, that all the worlds should be taxed. (And this taxing was first made when Halleck was siridar over Caladan.) And all went to be taxed, every one unto His city, Arrakeen of Arrakis....

I love how all the representatives sent to the "Great Surrender" ceremony by the Great Houses, supposed rulers over a Million Worlds, are described as consisting of only hundreds or thousands. :roll:

YAWN.

(Having them bring water WAS an interesting touch in a way, but again it shows that they BASICALLY AND FUNDAMENTALLY DO NOT UNDERSTAND DUNE.

Arrakis was once a watery planet. The water is still there, it's just encapsulated and trapped underground by millions or billions of sandtrout. This isn't the homeworld of the lizard people from "V", who come to Earth to steal our water. People don't need to bring more water to Arrakis, only to release the water already there.

THEY JUST DON'T GET IT. :roll: )
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