Calling out Byron (politely)

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Lundse
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Calling out Byron (politely)

Postby Lundse » 12 Sep 2008 08:36

I only just noticed that Byron (hi Byron) have been posting here - and saw the previous 'call out'-topic.

And I was a bit disheartened....

First of all, I think it is pretty damn brave to come here. For any KJA&BH fan/defender. Period.
Going to a site where we identify as 'cast out' either because we intensely dislike the current 'Dune fandom' and/or the site he is running - or because we have actually been banned by him is commendable.

Of course, he must accept that we have rather 'sharp' views on the prequels and what his employer is allowing to be called official. And that we routinely ridicule and insult those people. This is our culture, just as dunenovels' culture is to disallow any discussion on the HLP.


However, when engaged in discussion there is simply no point in dragging all this up. Calling KJA or BH a bad name whilst discussing his books with a fan is not constructive - no matter how horrible a person you believe they are (and I do, trust me).

Now, we can either welcome Byron here, and discuss things in a civil manner with him. Or we can make it clear that he is not welcome (and lump in with the others we routinely lambast).


I for one will try the former. So Byron, if I ever, here or anywhere else, step over the line, please let me know through either PM system - or publically if you believe a public apology is in order.
Note that this does not extend to my characterisation of discussions. If I believe someone is strawmanning my arguments, avoiding my points or sidestepping the issue, I will call them out on it.


In closing, I have a few questions for Byron:

Are my assumptions correct that you: Work for the HLP? Exclusively on the dunenovels.com website? Know some people on the board on a more than strictly business sense?

Also, I would like your thoughts on your involvement on those boards, and here.
What principles do you try to adhere to regarding both posting and moderating, and are there things you 'could not possibly comment on' qua your employment?
Especially with regards to this board (though I would love to hear details about differences on this) - would you, per your contract with your employer, be able to agree on a point which could be deemed critical of the new novels (eg. an inconsistency or thematic misunderstanding). Or would you have to keep quiet/back out of such a discussion?


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Postby Serkanner » 12 Sep 2008 08:56

As long as he keeps banning people from the "official" dune shite forum for no other reason then a utter dislike of anything related to the atrocity that has become dune I see no reason to remain "polite" to Byron here.

He feeds his family from banning people from that site and stating how great those novels are.

How pathetic can you become. If it was up to me, which it isn't, he would just get his ass kicked from here for the sole reason I find him an moron without any decent sense of what literature is.

may I quote:

"
I'm reading an ARC copy of Paul of Dune, and I think it's the best thing Brian and KJA have written. Amazing!"

I will not even bother looking for that other ridiculous statement of "getting their prose into high gear".

Why on Earth would you like to have a civilized conversation with yet another HLP crony who feeds from Frank's masterpiece.

Furthermore: there is nothing brave about being stupid.
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Postby Lundse » 12 Sep 2008 09:09

Serkanner wrote:As long as he keeps banning people from the "official" dune shite forum for no other reason then a utter dislike of anything related to the atrocity that has become dune I see no reason to remain "polite" to Byron here.

He feeds his family from banning people from that site and stating how great those novels are.


I agree with you that there is a problem re. his job. This is why I asked him whether he can in fact talk openly with regards to the novels...
I happen to agree with you that the money he takes from the HLP is indeed quite dirty, but I do not know if other members here work for Microsoft, Sony or other enemies of the people - so I am not going to judge him solely on that basis. Nor am I going to call him out to discuss why he should quit (or work as a sleeper agent for us ;-) ) - I don't think that discussion will go anywhere.


Serkanner wrote:How pathetic can you become. If it was up to me, which it isn't, he would just get his ass kicked from here for the sole reason I find him an moron without any decent sense of what literature is.


See below (second to last).


Serkanner wrote:may I quote:

"I'm reading an ARC copy of Paul of Dune, and I think it's the best thing Brian and KJA have written. Amazing!"

I will not even bother looking for that other ridiculous statement of "getting their prose into high gear".


Agreed, that is part of his loathsome job as an online publicist for the HLP. I do not believe I necessarily have to hate the person behind it.


Serkanner wrote:Why on Earth would you like to have a civilized conversation with yet another HLP crony who feeds from Frank's masterpiece.


Because if I do not allow others to constructively criticise my ideas and thoughts, then they are nothing but dogma. I have strong beliefs about FH's books, themes and political/philosophical thoughts - but that only puts a strong ethical demand on me to actually be willing to discuss them. Byron has another view, I should hear him out - even if he cannot convince me, I will still learn to be clearer about my views, and maybe about why he has his.

(Caveat: if his views are predicated on his paycheck only, there is really no discussion to be had. I am just not willing to jump to that conclusion).
(PS: this reasoning is also what allows me to be fairly confident re. my views - I have tried discussing these matters and never seen anyone lucidly argue against my basic readings of FH).


Serkanner wrote:Furthermore: there is nothing brave about being stupid.


This is circular - I do not believe it was stupid to come here. And if it turns out it was in vain, only because we as a community kept spitting bile at him, then I still don't think it was really stupid.

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Postby Seraphan » 12 Sep 2008 09:27

The thing about freedom of speech in this place is that every single person is responsible for their own words, if you see this place as being devided by factions rather than equal or semi-equal opinions, then you're seing it all wrong.
Simon likes the books that KJA and BH are writting and yet i dont call him a prequelite or whatever. If he likes them he is free to express it like he as; if someone responds to him with insults he can either respond to it with arguments or ignore it, deleting a post doesnt mean it was never there.
Calling the author poopy heads doesnt get an argument anywhere, true, but it doesnt make the authors burst into tears and overweigh feelings of guilt either. If you feel angry about what they are doing with these novels and call them fuckers then you're simply letting it out, you're free to do so.
If Byron showed up and talked about, for example, cinema, that doesnt stop me from talking to him about it; if he shows up and says that Paul of Dune is one their greatest works then i'm gonna fucking say otherwise; whether he ignores it or not is completly up to him.
So to make this long statement short, if you see something in these forums that you dont like then avert your eyes. Both Jacurutu and T(A)U are great and well managed Forums and it's big enough for all of us.

Edited: So basically you're giving him the benefit of the doubt.
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Postby Lundse » 12 Sep 2008 09:50

Seraphan wrote:The thing about freedom of speech in this place is that every single person is responsible for their own words, if you see this place as being devided by factions rather than equal or semi-equal opinions, then you're seing it all wrong.
Simon likes the books that KJA and BH are writting and yet i dont call him a prequelite or whatever. If he likes them he is free to express it like he as; if someone responds to him with insults he can either respond to it with arguments or ignore it, deleting a post doesnt mean it was never there.
Calling the author poopy heads doesnt get an argument anywhere, true, but it doesnt make the authors burst into tears and overweigh feelings of guilt either. If you feel angry about what they are doing with these novels and call them fuckers then you're simply letting it out, you're free to do so.
If Byron showed up and talked about, for example, cinema, that doesnt stop me from talking to him about it; if he shows up and says that Paul of Dune is one their greatest works then i'm gonna fucking say otherwise; whether he ignores it or not is completly up to him.
So to make this long statement short, if you see something in these forums that you dont like then avert your eyes. Both Jacurutu and T(A)U are great and well managed Forums and it's big enough for all of us.


I agree with all of the above. Of course one should judge each persons individual statements, and I will certainly state my opinion if someone brings up Paul of Dune (I will also continue to judge people based on how they are able to respond to constructive argumentation against their views).

Your last paragraph sort of implies (not saying you meant it to) that I should simply look away if I don't like how Byron is being addressed here.
That is true up to a point. Or rather, what is also true is that I should let me feelings on the matter the known, and that it would be a fine thing if we could (as we obviously can) discuss how we interact here. I think we should be more civil and to the point, while allowing people to rant and rave when they get worked up (Sandchigger's review and the demotivators come to mind).
I am just asking people if it would not be more fair and civil to put the rants on hold when actually discussing and arguing back and forth...

Seraphan wrote:Edited: So basically you're giving him the benefit of the doubt.


I am treating anyone who wishes to argue his pints lucidly as civil as I can, while sticking to my guns until I am proven wrong.
I have my opinions about the job Byron has taken, his convictions about literature and Dune, and his way of arguing his points.
I chose not to bring them up unless directly relevant to the discussion at hand.

So yeah, I am assuming we can engage in a constructive discussion together. Which we have done with some amount of success in the past. I am certainly not throwing away the chance by insulting him.

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Postby Mr. Teg » 12 Sep 2008 09:51

Calling out "politely"...

You're little behind on current events the last 2 years.
(For example, Byron regularly bans members because of opinions posted on other forums.)

We're not arbitrarily calling 'em fuckers, etc.
Byron is known as a pussy for a reason(s).

Oh, wait...here's a quote from a past thread;
Byron wrote:I would venture to say that Mr. Teg is a small section of toilet paper that I used to wipe my bum on and discard into a port-a-pottie where it sits atop other fecal material only to fester amongst the mound of shite-eating flies that buzz around him (it?) before another large turd comes flying downward on top of him. ~~ Who was it that said this again?
Last edited by Mr. Teg on 12 Sep 2008 10:01, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Lundse » 12 Sep 2008 09:56

Mr. Teg wrote:Calling out "politely"...

You're little behind on current events the last 2 years.
We're not arbitrarily calling 'em fuckers, etc.
Byron is known as a pussy for a reason(s).


Hey, he has censored me too.

But if he tries to engage in a discussion, I will try my damnedst not to let it deteriorate. If nothing else, then out of respect for the discussion.

I think it is admirable that he comes here to discuss matters, especially if they include the things he cannot discuss 'back home' for his employer. In fact, if that is his intention, it disproves the 'pussy' theory of why he deletes valid discussions at dunenovels.com

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Postby Mr. Teg » 12 Sep 2008 10:08

Lundse wrote:Hey, he has censored me too.

Image

But if he tries to engage in a discussion, I will try my damnedst not to let it deteriorate. If nothing else, then out of respect for the discussion.

I think it is admirable that he comes here to discuss matters, especially if they include the things he cannot discuss 'back home' for his employer.

Image

In fact, if that is his intention, it disproves the 'pussy' theory of why he deletes valid discussions at dunenovels.com


He never came here to discuss matters.
(Again you're way behind current events)[/img]
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Postby Seraphan » 12 Sep 2008 10:26

I respect your point of view, i'm simply against the "politicaly correct" aproach to matters and defend the "state your piece of mind and be honest" aproach. Discution of each person's view of things is the purpose of these Forums and if someone's out for a flame war, kick his ass out.
I know you're not playing devil's advocate but byron has done a lot to gain this kind of hostility from others, his cynicism is a matter of fact and many of the people that hate his guts like Omphalos, SandChigger for example, have dealt with him for far longer than i have. They can state their reasons better than me.

Edit: If you worked in a mental house, would you listen and consider everything those "i'm napoleon bonapart" loonies say? That's what i mean by ignoring, it's what I've done regarding every single thing arnoldo said back at DN.
Last edited by Seraphan on 12 Sep 2008 10:32, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Lundse » 12 Sep 2008 10:31

<snip>
Last edited by Lundse on 12 Sep 2008 11:11, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Lundse » 12 Sep 2008 10:36

Seraphan wrote:I respect your point of view, i'm simply against the "politicaly correct" aproach to matters and defend the "state your piece of mind and be honest" aproach. Discution of each person's view of things is the purpose of these Forums and if someone's out for a flame war, kick his ass out.
I know you're not playing devil's advocate but byron has done a lot to gain this kind of hostility from others, his cynicism is a matter of fact and many of the people that hate his guts like Omphalos, SandChigger for example, have dealt with him for far longer than i have. They can state their reasons better than me.
Edit: If you worked in a mental house, would you listen and consider everything those "i'm napoleon bonapart" loonies say? That's what i mean by ignoring, it's what I've done regarding every single thing arnoldo said back at DN.


I think we agree, then. I have tried being polite with Byron in the past (over a ban-warning) and that worked out. I have tried arguing with him and he ended up ignoring me (as I see it, when he was 'cornered') - but the discussion remained civil.
For the record, I am not going for political correctness. I just have no interest in flame wars and would like to enable discussions.

That said, I would like to hear what has people so riled up about him (beyond working for the HLP and, as a lot of people see it, censoring good posts in doing so).


Regarding mental houses, then I get your point. And I do have a a tendency to 'keep trying' (with eg. Arnoldo) far beyond that person's ability to respond properly.
Byron has not been uncivil, and I am willing to give him a go at arguing his case here, where he might be more free to give his own two cents than at his employers' place...

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Postby Mr. Teg » 12 Sep 2008 10:43

Cute...

1) You're ignoring the above quote from Byron which disproves your stance.

2) You're ignoring that Byron has publically admitted he hunts down dissenters on other forums (then bans 'em).

3) To ignores those points while still tyring to argue otherwise suggests to me there's an agenda.
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Postby Mr. Teg » 12 Sep 2008 10:45

Lundse wrote:Byron has not been uncivil, and I am willing to give him a go at arguing his case here, where he might be more free to give his own two cents than at his employers' place...


:roll:
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Postby Lundse » 12 Sep 2008 10:53

Mr. Teg wrote:
Lundse wrote:Hey, he has censored me too.

<snip>

But if he tries to engage in a discussion, I will try my damnedst not to let it deteriorate. If nothing else, then out of respect for the discussion.

I think it is admirable that he comes here to discuss matters, especially if they include the things he cannot discuss 'back home' for his employer.

<snip>

In fact, if that is his intention, it disproves the 'pussy' theory of why he deletes valid discussions at dunenovels.com


He never came here to discuss matters.
(Again you're way behind current events)[/img]


In these posts, he seems to be trying. I am not saying I agree with what he is saying, and much of it is just small comment - but he is discussing Dune and FH here.

http://www.jacurutu.com/viewtopic.php?p=9945&highlight=#9945
http://www.jacurutu.com/viewtopic.php?p=9766&highlight=#9766
http://www.jacurutu.com/viewtopic.php?t=356&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
http://www.jacurutu.com/viewtopic.php?p=9696&highlight=#9696
http://www.jacurutu.com/viewtopic.php?p=9553&highlight=#9553


Whether he is willing to discuss the views on which we primarily disgree (consistency, canonicity, themes), is another matter entirely (especially since his employer has an interest in the matter, too).
I certainly won't stand in the way of that discussion - as long as I welcome and enable it, the burden of proof is on the opposition. Byron (and others) are welcome to try and convince me otherwise - if they are unwilling to do so lucidly and civilly, then I don't have to respect their views, while their case against mine is nothing but dogma.


BTW, what recent events is it I am behind on?


Now: about your insults.
I am trying to discuss how we should deal with those we disagree with. I did not call you out specifically, nor did I in any way insult you. I don't know you, but if your dislike of Byron is based on more than previous flame wars with him, I think we see pretty much eye to eye on the KJA&BH books. Why start insulting me?
I try to tell you where I come from, that I understand why you dislike him and to let you know I feel some measure of that disgruntlement myself. You reply with an insult.
I respect someone for trying to argue his points, in a hostile environment. You reply with an insult.

Now, you can believe whatever you want about me. It is a matter of public record (as long as it does not get deleted :D ) that I and Byron disagree strongly - your insinuations that I am somehow sucking up to him look rather silly in that light.

I want to have a discussion with the guy over our disagreements. I don't feel the need to put him down because of them.
If that makes me worthy of insults in your opinion, then let the smileys rip. Again, I think it is rather disheartening that avowed lovers of the same great piece of literature stoop to such things...

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Postby TheDukester » 12 Sep 2008 11:10

I don't get the big concern here. Let's quickly review:

1. The guy hasn't posted anything here since June, although he is free to do so at any time. Because, unlike the areas of the web where he gets to play tyrant, he is not banned and/or censored here.

2. Actually, part of that bears repeating: He is free to post here at any time.

3. He has lost all credibility. It's one thing to cash checks based on your family's destruction of FH's legacy; I think we all realized that, at the end of the day, the HLP is not doing any of this for free.

It's altogether different, however, for a reasonably intelligent man to become such a blatant shill for what is such an obviously terrible, awful, horrible book. "Best thing they've ever written," indeed. It's shit. And Byron knows it's shit. But he has crossed the line into blatant boosterism with his blind adulation of both KJA and this latest piece-of-shit "novel." And, by doing so, he has lost all respect around here.

4. And now the latest development ... which is really just more "third verse, same as the first verse." A Facebook page has been started that claims to be "official," although it is really just a gigantic advertisement for a highly unofficial project. And anyone who points that out just has his comments deleted.

Yawn. More of the same. Any dissenting opinion will be erased. You would have been right at home wearing a brown shirt in 1930s Germany, Byron.

So, again, I'll close with the question I opened with. What's the big concern over Byron? Frankly, he can post here or not post here; whatever. I find it difficult to really care that much.
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Postby Lundse » 12 Sep 2008 11:11

Mr. Teg wrote:
Lundse wrote:Byron has not been uncivil, and I am willing to give him a go at arguing his case here, where he might be more free to give his own two cents than at his employers' place...

:roll:


I accede to your point. The man has been uncivil. Not to me, and I do not know with what cause (knowing how quickly you resort to insults, him insulting you does not carry that much weight on its own - was this part of a topic 'in flames' or out of the blue?).
But you are right, he has been insulting. And that weighs heavily against him.
I understand firing back, and I understand frustration stemming from being unable to publically do so at DN, even if I do not believe much good will come of it (though I am no saint myself in these regards).

If he insults me in a topic, I will do roughly what I did in my last response to you - ask why and try to make it clear that it was uncalled for.
If not, I will try to discuss with the man as long as he tries discussing with me.


Mr. Teg wrote:Cute...

1) You're ignoring the above quote from Byron which disproves your stance.


See above.

Mr. Teg wrote:2) You're ignoring that Byron has publically admitted he hunts down dissenters on other forums (then bans 'em).


I am not ignoring it. I did not know it.
This reflects very poorly on him, we certainly agree. If he comes by here, I hope he will answer whether this means judging a persons overall netiquette/behaviour from various sources (which could be acceptable, if done right), or if he uses the technique to shut out dissenters (which is cowardly).

Mr. Teg wrote:3) To ignores those points while still tyring to argue otherwise suggests to me there's an agenda.


That is actually more insulting... However, I will give you the same benefit of doubt that I extend to eg. Byron and assume that you actually believe you are on to something. I hope the following can convince you I am not a sockpuppet, ally or whatever it is you believe:

Me, Dune and wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Lundse/Dune_quotes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Lundse/Zeus69962_Dune_discrepancy_discussion

And the tone I answer this DN member in (which mirrors my current stance on Byron et al, only further down the road of frustration - the guy was, in a word, not too bright):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Zeus69962

Last discussion with Byron, which ended in him ignoring me:
http://www.pagewash.com/nph-index.cgi/0 ... gneg=3d510

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Postby Lundse » 12 Sep 2008 11:20

TheDukester wrote:I don't get the big concern here. Let's quickly review:

1. The guy hasn't posted anything here since June, although he is free to do so at any time. Because, unlike the areas of the web where he gets to play tyrant, he is not banned and/or censored here.

2. Actually, part of that bears repeating: He is free to post here at any time.

3. He has lost all credibility. It's one thing to cash checks based on your family's destruction of FH's legacy; I think we all realized that, at the end of the day, the HLP is not doing any of this for free.

It's altogether different, however, for a reasonably intelligent man to become such a blatant shill for what is such an obviously terrible, awful, horrible book. "Best thing they've ever written," indeed. It's shit. And Byron knows it's shit. But he has crossed the line into blatant boosterism with his blind adulation of both KJA and this latest piece-of-shit "novel." And, by doing so, he has lost all respect around here.

4. And now the latest development ... which is really just more "third verse, same as the first verse." A Facebook page has been started that claims to be "official," although it is really just a gigantic advertisement for a highly unofficial project. And anyone who points that out just has his comments deleted.

Yawn. More of the same. Any dissenting opinion will be erased. You would have been right at home wearing a brown shirt in 1930s Germany, Byron.

So, again, I'll close with the question I opened with. What's the big concern over Byron? Frankly, he can post here or not post here; whatever. I find it difficult to really care that much.


The concern was that a lot of people were ganging up on him, and an entire thread became about putting him down.
Although he is free to post technically, that is not really a great incentive for him, you have to admit.

I would much rather hear his point of view and see if he is, if invited civilly and without censorship, able to defend what he claims to believe about the new books.
If he will not take up that challenge, then I don't have to respect his views.
But if he stays away because the atmosphere here is so hateful, I cannot really blame him and the no discussion really proved anything.

I do appreciate your explanation, though, and agree with your points. I still would like to have a civil discussion with him, though. If nothing else, then because I would love to see someone properly address this one, and he ignored it at his place of employment:

-

"The human-computer replaced the mechanical devices destroyed by the Butlerian Jihad. Thou shalt not make a machine in the likeness of a human mind! But Alia longed now for a compliant machine. They could not have suffered from Idaho's limitations. You could never distrust a machine."

* 1. Alia has memories from the time of the Jihad and knows details regarding Omnius et al.
* 2. She is wishing for a machine to give her advice on the level of a mentat's capabilities.
* 3. She characterises such a machine as 'compliant' and trustworthy.
* 4. A machine with capabilities re. political advice on the level of, or beyond, a mentat is a powerful artificial intelligence.
* 5. Omnius was a powerful artificial intelligence.
* 6. Omnius enslaved and tried to kill mankind.
* 7. Omnius was an AI which was not compliant or trustworthy, to a catstrophic degree (from 5 and 6).
* 8. Alia knows that a powerful AI can be untrustworthy and non-'compliant' the level of genocide or human extinction (from 1 and 7).
* 9. Alia believes a powerful AI would be trustworthy and 'compliant' (from 3 and 4).
* 10. Alia both believes, and does not believe, that a powerful artificial intelligence is 'compliant' and trustworthy (from 8 and 9) - Quod Est Absurdum.

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Postby TheDukester » 12 Sep 2008 11:33

Byron's most recent effort here:

http://www.jacurutu.com/viewtopic.php?p ... ght=#12530

A bizarre, in-your-face, out-of-nowhere, unasked-for rant about how cool the Two Dune-Rapers are and how many useless industry awards they've been nominated for.

If that is going to be his level of contribution around here, then I don't miss him at all.

I'm still baffled by your level of concern about this whole subject. Post something over at his little fiefdom if you want to have a "discussion" with him.

Just prepare for it to be deleted, of course. :roll:
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Postby A Thing of Eternity » 12 Sep 2008 11:49

I'm going to have to agree with Lundse on this so far, I personally would rather be able to argue with Byron than have him ignore us and us fling insults at someone who isn't listening. I get much more satisfaction out of me taking the high road and arguing well and him derailing subjects, resorting to insults and generally humiliating himself on topics he clearly doesn't understand at all (Dominos Vs Byron FTL debate) - way more satisfaction that I get from the times I just insult him. Nothing can ever quite match the fun I have debating with him and watching him scramble to derail the topic because he knows he'll loose.

And Teg, don't worry about Lundse, he hates new Dune as much or more than any of us. He just hasn't had enough time with Byron yet to form any real opinions, let him have that time and I'm sure he'll come to the same conclusions you (and I) have. I've always said one of the more idiotic things a person can do is base their opinion of a person on someone else's opinion of that person. Let Lundse form his own for his own reasons.

EDIT: And yes, Byron is a worthless yesman in my opinion, but I prefer to watch him proove that rather than just say it.
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Postby Frybread » 12 Sep 2008 11:56

Lundse, the problem is Byron has banned just about everyone who disagrees with his opinion of the new Dune books, even posters who have been polite.

It doesn't matter if you refrain from using personal attacks or foul language, if you express displeasure with PoD or any of the prequels or sequels he bans you. That is why, IMO, he does not deserve respect.

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Postby GamePlayer » 12 Sep 2008 12:02

These topics serve no purpose. The choices in this matter have been made. Byron has made his bed and now he has to sleep in it.

As for our website here, I say let the denizens of Dumbnovels spy, scry, surf and monitor Jacurutu if they wish; it is they who must wade through our shit like many our members here have had to do reading KJA/BH novels. If they believe that monitoring the internet somehow does something for them other than feed their paranoia, then welcome them with open arms. It gives me comfort to know these deluded souls are upset, head-shaking, finger-wagging "fans" forced to read our topics insulting the KJA/BH novels over and over again. I say damn them to such an existence and leave the way open to Jacurutu. If they were smart, they wouldn't be inflicting negativity upon themselves by visiting a website they claim to vehemently oppose. But I never credited the HLP and it's sychophants with an abundance of brains.
"They can chew you up, but they gotta spit you out."

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A Thing of Eternity
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Postby A Thing of Eternity » 12 Sep 2008 12:32

GamePlayer wrote:These topics serve no purpose. The choices in this matter have been made.


I'll agree with that too.
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Postby Seraphan » 12 Sep 2008 13:41

A Thing of Eternity wrote:I'm going to have to agree with Lundse on this so far, I personally would rather be able to argue with Byron than have him ignore us and us fling insults at someone who isn't listening. I get much more satisfaction out of me taking the high road and arguing well and him derailing subjects, resorting to insults and generally humiliating himself on topics he clearly doesn't understand at all (Dominos Vs Byron FTL debate) - way more satisfaction that I get from the times I just insult him. Nothing can ever quite match the fun I have debating with him and watching him scramble to derail the topic because he knows he'll loose.

And Teg, don't worry about Lundse, he hates new Dune as much or more than any of us. He just hasn't had enough time with Byron yet to form any real opinions, let him have that time and I'm sure he'll come to the same conclusions you (and I) have. I've always said one of the more idiotic things a person can do is base their opinion of a person on someone else's opinion of that person. Let Lundse form his own for his own reasons.

EDIT: And yes, Byron is a worthless yesman in my opinion, but I prefer to watch him proove that rather than just say it.


Fuckin' Amen! Me and a few bunch would like to discuss stuff with him but he eventually always shields himself with cynicism and that's how he won the image he has now.
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Postby Serkanner » 12 Sep 2008 13:58

Lundse wrote:
Serkanner wrote:As long as he keeps banning people from the "official" dune shite forum for no other reason then a utter dislike of anything related to the atrocity that has become dune I see no reason to remain "polite" to Byron here.

He feeds his family from banning people from that site and stating how great those novels are.


I agree with you that there is a problem re. his job. This is why I asked him whether he can in fact talk openly with regards to the novels...
I happen to agree with you that the money he takes from the HLP is indeed quite dirty, but I do not know if other members here work for Microsoft, Sony or other enemies of the people - so I am not going to judge him solely on that basis. Nor am I going to call him out to discuss why he should quit (or work as a sleeper agent for us ;-) ) - I don't think that discussion will go anywhere.


Serkanner wrote:How pathetic can you become. If it was up to me, which it isn't, he would just get his ass kicked from here for the sole reason I find him an moron without any decent sense of what literature is.


See below (second to last).


Serkanner wrote:may I quote:

"I'm reading an ARC copy of Paul of Dune, and I think it's the best thing Brian and KJA have written. Amazing!"

I will not even bother looking for that other ridiculous statement of "getting their prose into high gear".


Agreed, that is part of his loathsome job as an online publicist for the HLP. I do not believe I necessarily have to hate the person behind it.


Serkanner wrote:Why on Earth would you like to have a civilized conversation with yet another HLP crony who feeds from Frank's masterpiece.


Because if I do not allow others to constructively criticise my ideas and thoughts, then they are nothing but dogma. I have strong beliefs about FH's books, themes and political/philosophical thoughts - but that only puts a strong ethical demand on me to actually be willing to discuss them. Byron has another view, I should hear him out - even if he cannot convince me, I will still learn to be clearer about my views, and maybe about why he has his.

(Caveat: if his views are predicated on his paycheck only, there is really no discussion to be had. I am just not willing to jump to that conclusion).
(PS: this reasoning is also what allows me to be fairly confident re. my views - I have tried discussing these matters and never seen anyone lucidly argue against my basic readings of FH).


Serkanner wrote:Furthermore: there is nothing brave about being stupid.


This is circular - I do not believe it was stupid to come here. And if it turns out it was in vain, only because we as a community kept spitting bile at him, then I still don't think it was really stupid.



There are quite a few reasons why I despise Byron. No need to repeat them. He is way beyond the point that I am willing to have a discussion about anything with this coward. I do not feel the need to dissect a post sentence by sentence and explain myself. Byron is not worth the effort. If you want to discuss matters with the little fucker, just go to dumbnovels and discuss it there ... see how long you last.
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Re: Calling out Byron (politely)

Postby Simon » 12 Sep 2008 14:42

Lundse wrote:First of all, I think it is pretty damn brave to come here. For any KJA&BH fan/defender. Period.


Thanks, but I feel like Ice-T in that movie where Rugter Hauer hunts him for sport. SandChigger is like Gary Busey in that flick. :shock: :lol: