Calling out Byron (politely)

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Lundse
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Postby Lundse » 14 Sep 2008 14:49

There seems to have been a few misunderstandings (and downright personal attacks) about this thread and my position.

I am glad to have learned more about Byrons dealings, I have not been here or on DN for long, and I certainly do not read everything - so thanks for the clearing up that has been done.

In short, I do aknowledge that Byron has 'dirty hands' from his involvement with the HLP, and I vehemently disagree with him on most issues.
I also believe that he has a right to his opinions; and that in order to judge him and them, I must be willing to hear him out. I would much rather ask him pointed questions and call him out for it when he does not or cannot answer, than simply call him names. Incidentally, I think that others reading the discussion would also be less likely to be convinced of my points if I stated them as indisputable facts, along with a few swear-words.

When learning Byron had posted here, I hoped that I could get answers I would not get at DN. The prevalent belief here that he would never do anything but regurgitate the 'party line' might very well be true - but I am willing to be proven wrong, just as I am willing to listen to his arguments and reasons for his beliefs (if he has them, and choses to share them at some point).

I think that his refusal to answer me, when I ask politely, has a thousand-fold more thunderous silence, than his refusal to argue his points against someone who is deliberately insulting him (I would do the latter too).


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Postby TheDukester » 14 Sep 2008 14:59

Wow, speaking of misunderstandings ... :roll:

No one here has a magical ability that makes Byron actually appear and post at Jacurutu. He has not posted since June and isn't likely to come back anytime soon, given the universal derision that PoD is receiving here (not to mention the mass-bannings of Jacurutu members at DN).

If you want to have a discussion with him, you'll have to do it at DN. Or send him a PM over there or something ... but bringing up the subject over and over and over again at this site is a complete waste of time.

If you want to talk with him, then go talk with him. No one here is stopping you.
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Postby chanilover » 14 Sep 2008 15:21

Lundse - I don't know what to say about Byron, but I wouldn't spend too much time worrying about it. He posts here now and again, you'll probably find him in the Beer Thread.
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Postby Lundse » 14 Sep 2008 16:53

TheDukester wrote:Wow, speaking of misunderstandings ... :roll:

No one here has a magical ability that makes Byron actually appear and post at Jacurutu. He has not posted since June and isn't likely to come back anytime soon, given the universal derision that PoD is receiving here (not to mention the mass-bannings of Jacurutu members at DN).

If you want to have a discussion with him, you'll have to do it at DN. Or send him a PM over there or something ... but bringing up the subject over and over and over again at this site is a complete waste of time.

If you want to talk with him, then go talk with him. No one here is stopping you.


1 - If others insult him in a thread where I try to discuss with him, I would not be surprised if he left. I was asking him personal questions in the initial post above, shouting matches would not be conducive to getting answers.
2 - I would love for others to be able to discuss matters, too. I then had to defend a simple call for civility, again and again - don't blame me if this has run-on.
3 - The idea of sending him a private message is great. Maybe one just alerting him to the thread, so his answers would be public and he would know I was serious about welcoming the discussion? Oh wait, I already did that shortly after first post...

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Postby Mandy » 14 Sep 2008 17:36

He came here with a defensive attitude. It's true that he was personally attacked, but that was only after he used information from other places to ban people at DN. Then he started doing the same thing with posts made here. He shouldn't be surprised by the disrespect.

If he honestly wanted to discuss Dune, he should have made an anonymous account.

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Postby Mr. Teg » 14 Sep 2008 19:58

Jez, you're style of presenting arguments is on the same level as KJA's prose...like a high school student.

Obviously, someone with an agenda.
(No, that's not an insult, it's a statement.)
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Postby Freakzilla » 14 Sep 2008 20:35

I suspect he's been told not to post here.
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Postby A Thing of Eternity » 14 Sep 2008 22:03

Freakzilla wrote:I suspect he's been told not to post here.


I hadn't thought of that. Very likely true though.
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Postby GamePlayer » 14 Sep 2008 22:13

He may not post, but he regularly visits. I saw his name listed in the "registered users online" list just the other day.
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Postby A Thing of Eternity » 14 Sep 2008 22:16

He's read a few of my PMs too, hasn't answered them though. Can't say I blame him since the first PM was me giving him shit for supporting the Hacks putting Serena and Normacle into PoD... DAMN YOU CHIGGER! :lol:
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Postby Rakis » 14 Sep 2008 22:53

Lundse wrote:
Rakis wrote:
Mr. Teg wrote:
Lundse wrote:Hey, he has censored me too.

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But if he tries to engage in a discussion, I will try my damnedst not to let it deteriorate. If nothing else, then out of respect for the discussion.

I think it is admirable that he comes here to discuss matters, especially if they include the things he cannot discuss 'back home' for his employer.

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In fact, if that is his intention, it disproves the 'pussy' theory of why he deletes valid discussions at dunenovels.com


He never came here to discuss matters.
(Again you're way behind current events)[/img]


BEST POST IN THIS THREAD :)


So you believe a call for civil discussion should be subjected to ridicule, sprinkled with lies (I have linked to on-topic posts by Byron here)?


Nothing personnal with you...

But i'm WAY pass civil discussion with Byron...He's hypocrite,that's no lie...
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Re: Calling out Byron (politely)

Postby Bijaz » 15 Sep 2008 05:10

Lundse wrote:I only just noticed that Byron (hi Byron) have been posting here - and saw the previous 'call out'-topic.

And I was a bit disheartened....

First of all, I think it is pretty damn brave to come here. For any KJA&BH fan/defender. Period.
Going to a site where we identify as 'cast out' either because we intensely dislike the current 'Dune fandom' and/or the site he is running - or because we have actually been banned by him is commendable.

Of course, he must accept that we have rather 'sharp' views on the prequels and what his employer is allowing to be called official. And that we routinely ridicule and insult those people. This is our culture, just as dunenovels' culture is to disallow any discussion on the HLP.


However, when engaged in discussion there is simply no point in dragging all this up. Calling KJA or BH a bad name whilst discussing his books with a fan is not constructive - no matter how horrible a person you believe they are (and I do, trust me).

Now, we can either welcome Byron here, and discuss things in a civil manner with him. Or we can make it clear that he is not welcome (and lump in with the others we routinely lambast).


I for one will try the former. So Byron, if I ever, here or anywhere else, step over the line, please let me know through either PM system - or publically if you believe a public apology is in order.Note that this does not extend to my characterisation of discussions. If I believe someone is strawmanning my arguments, avoiding my points or sidestepping the issue, I will call them out on it.


In closing, I have a few questions for Byron:

Are my assumptions correct that you: Work for the HLP? Exclusively on the dunenovels.com website? Know some people on the board on a more than strictly business sense?

Also, I would like your thoughts on your involvement on those boards, and here.
What principles do you try to adhere to regarding both posting and moderating, and are there things you 'could not possibly comment on' qua your employment?
Especially with regards to this board (though I would love to hear details about differences on this) - would you, per your contract with your employer, be able to agree on a point which could be deemed critical of the new novels (eg. an inconsistency or thematic misunderstanding). Or would you have to keep quiet/back out of such a discussion?


Lundse

-

Keep it civil. But don't compromise.


Honestly, who talks like this?
(You're either a fanboy or Kim's socketpocket)

Get a room if want to cybersuck Byron...

Keep it drivel.

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Postby Lundse » 15 Sep 2008 07:01

Mr. Teg wrote:Jez, you're style of presenting arguments is on the same level as KJA's prose...like a high school student.

Obviously, someone with an agenda.
(No, that's not an insult, it's a statement.)


Acutally, my style is that of a university graduate trying to be forthcoming and accurate.
I am sorry if you do not want to participate in the discussion and maybe try to argue for your accusations, or just tell us why you prefer insults to arguments.

I have no clue what agenda you are suspecting me of having - I have clearly stated what I am trying to say and do here, and if you believe what I am doing and saying here is accomplishing something else than making a bid for civility and open discussion, then let us know how you arrive at that conclusion.

You could also just keep insulting me, of course.

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Re: Calling out Byron (politely)

Postby Lundse » 15 Sep 2008 07:12

Bijaz wrote:Honestly, who talks like this?
(You're either a fanboy or Kim's socketpocket)

Get a room if want to cybersuck Byron...

Keep it drivel.


I do, apparently. My style of English is a bit weird, because most of the high-level educational material I read (and real literature, like Dune, BTW) is in English, while most anything else I read is in Danish (my first language). So I aim for a higher tone in English than I am properly capable of pulling of (I have, unfortunately, no daily experience talking English).


That said - I don't think anyone is really confused about what I am saying.

I am calling for civility and open discussion - even with those I (and most of us) disagree with.


Is wanting to be open to discussion really so disgusting and horrible that you guys have to insult me for it? I think we (OH'er, or whatever you want to call us) have the moral high ground, and I would like for the archived discussions on the matter to reflect this.


I do not know who this Kim person is - someone who posted here, on DN? I am certainly a gushing fanboy when it comes to Leonard Cohen, Neal Stephenson, Neil Gaiman and Frank Herbert - quilty as charged.
I don't think anyone who took 15 seconds to check out the links I have given above you suspect me of having any love for KJA&BH, though.

It would be quite a mole job, though, posting on Dune for a couple of years, attacking the prequels in order to seem legit when asking people not to personally attack each other when there is a chance of inter-forum-debate...
What was it you thought my agenda was again? And how is wanting Byron to answer my questions 'cybersucking'? Is it because I asked politely? Because I think it was brave to come here? Because I showed willingness to stick to a certain standard of discussion, which you will not?

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Postby Lundse » 15 Sep 2008 07:17

Rakis wrote:
Lundse wrote:
Rakis wrote:BEST POST IN THIS THREAD :)


So you believe a call for civil discussion should be subjected to ridicule, sprinkled with lies (I have linked to on-topic posts by Byron here)?


Nothing personnal with you...

But i'm WAY pass civil discussion with Byron...He's hypocrite,that's no lie...


Whatever you think about Byron, or civil discussions with him - how does that translate to a post ridiculing me being good?
The post you refer to was insulting to me, personally. Supporting that sort of thing is 'something personal with me'...

You may have written him off entirely, what you are supporting above is writing me off too (and lying about me, too, aparrently) - for wanting to remain open to discussion...

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Postby Freakzilla » 15 Sep 2008 08:26

A Thing of Eternity wrote:He's read a few of my PMs too, hasn't answered them though. Can't say I blame him since the first PM was me giving him shit for supporting the Hacks putting Serena and Normacle into PoD... DAMN YOU CHIGGER! :lol:


:lol:
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Re: Calling out Byron (politely)

Postby Lundse » 15 Sep 2008 08:31

< snipped weird quote of my own previous post - probably my fault somehow >
Last edited by Lundse on 15 Sep 2008 10:13, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Calling out Byron (politely)

Postby Tyrant » 15 Sep 2008 09:09

Lundse wrote:
Lundse wrote:
Bijaz wrote:Honestly, who talks like this?
(You're either a fanboy or Kim's socketpocket)

Get a room if want to cybersuck Byron...

Keep it drivel.


I do, apparently. My style of English is a bit weird, because most of the high-level educational material I read (and real literature, like Dune, BTW) is in English, while most anything else I read is in Danish (my first language). So I aim for a higher tone in English than I am properly capable of pulling of (I have, unfortunately, no daily experience talking English).


That said - I don't think anyone is really confused about what I am saying.

I am calling for civility and open discussion - even with those I (and most of us) disagree with.


Is wanting to be open to discussion really so disgusting and horrible that you guys have to insult me for it? I think we (OH'er, or whatever you want to call us) have the moral high ground, and I would like for the archived discussions on the matter to reflect this.


I do not know who this Kim person is - someone who posted here, on DN? I am certainly a gushing fanboy when it comes to Leonard Cohen, Neal Stephenson, Neil Gaiman and Frank Herbert - quilty as charged.
I don't think anyone who took 15 seconds to check out the links I have given above, or my first post here (http://www.jacurutu.com/viewtopic.php?p=14668), would suspect me of having any love for KJA&BH, though.

It would be quite a mole job, though, posting on Dune for a couple of years, attacking the prequels in order to seem legit when asking people not to personally attack each other when there is a chance of inter-forum-debate...
Wait, what was it you thought my agenda was again?

And how is wanting Byron to answer my questions 'cybersucking'? Is it because I asked politely? Because I think it was brave to come here? Because I showed willingness to stick to a certain standard of discussion, which you will not?



good lord...please stop posting..im about to poke my eyes out with a very dull spoon
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Postby Freakzilla » 15 Sep 2008 09:21

I don't know what all the personal insulting is about, but I have nothing but respect for the posts I've seen Lundse make at DN, he definately has kept the faith, and I wish it would stop.

Lundse,

I hate it but I don't think you'll get any response with any real content from Byron here. Like others have said, he hasn't posted here in months and I don't think he would go against the HLP's official party propaganda anyway.
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Postby Serkanner » 15 Sep 2008 09:30

Kim = Kim Herbert as in Brian's daughter.

Lundse, I applaud your effort to adhere to civil conversation. I am however afraid you have opened a nasty can of worms "requesting" an open and civil discussion with Byron here after most of us were banned from dumbnovels and most for ridiculous reasons.

I don't understand why you can not see that people respond outraged because of your civility here to a person who has shown no hospitality, honousty and civilty either here or on dumbnovels.

It is rather weird, in my opinion, that you want to "invite" Byron to have Dune related discussions herewhen he has shown a gazillion times on dumbnovels that he isn't interested in decent discussions about Dune at all; neither here nor on dumbnovels.

Byron's behaviour is the sole reason for the people's hostility here and you act as if you don't understand why. That is silly and it makes people angry ( at you ).
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Postby Tyrant » 15 Sep 2008 09:32

post deleted by Tyrant over misunderstanding

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Re: Calling out Byron (politely)

Postby TheDukester » 15 Sep 2008 09:59

Lundse wrote:I am calling for civility and open discussion - even with those I (and most of us) disagree with.

Yes, we get that part ... you've said it more than once.

But why are you calling for it HERE? That's what's beginning to really bother some of us.

Byron's not here, brother, and he is not coming back. How can we have any sort of "discussion" if one-half of the participants aren't available?

You might as well call for a "discussion" with Thomas Jefferson, the Easter Bunny, Stephen King, Amelia Earhart, and Mickey Mantle. Because guess what? They're not here, either!

Seriously, please take your bizarre requests over to DuneNovels (where Byron actually is) or find a new topic to discuss.
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Postby SandChigger » 15 Sep 2008 10:29

Some of us wanted and hoped that Byron would engage in open and honest discussion of the new novels and situation that has spawned them. (Teg can avow that EVEN NOW I still waver on the question of Byron and his motivations and all.) But it's too obvious that that sort of thing is never going to happen.

As someone pointed out above, he could have used any user name in the world here but chose to use "Spice Grandson". (Just as he initially used an inappropriate one over on Dead 'Keen.) What identity does he have other than as a member of the HLP?
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Postby Lundse » 15 Sep 2008 10:44

Tyrant wrote:i have no problem with Lundse's posts...what got on my nerves is how Lundse quoted his own post to repost it again....got on my nerves


Sorry about the repost, that was a mistake (no idea how it happened).


TheDukester wrote:
Lundse wrote:I am calling for civility and open discussion - even with those I (and most of us) disagree with.
Yes, we get that part ... you've said it more than once.


Not everyone gets it. I am responding now to personal attacks against myself, the only way I believe is constructive - explaining and clarifying. I am sorry if this bothers you, and rest assured that my repetitions are not aimed at anyone but the ones who attempt to paint my actions here in another light.


TheDukester wrote:But why are you calling for it HERE? That's what's beginning to really bother some of us.


Because he came. Because he did interact constructively (in some places, I am not saying all!). Because this place is the right forum for asking the kinds of question I asked him.

Because I thought he could talk more freely here. Apparently, he cannot.

That he cannot do so with people who routinely insult him, his uncle and his business associates to his face is one thing....
That he is not able to answer me, even through the PM channels, is truly interesting. I agree that the most likely answer is that he has simply been told not to - or realized himself that it is 'hurting' his goal of diverting all possible critique.


Serkanner wrote:Byron's behaviour is the sole reason for the people's hostility here and you act as if you don't understand why. That is silly and it makes people angry ( at you ).


I sincerely apologize if I ever gave anyone the impression that I did not understand their reasons for disliking, hating, etc. Byron! Period (OK, exclamation mark, so sue me).

I fully understand. And, as I have said, have been quite miffed on occasion myself (after being banned, having my posts deleted without warning, etc.). I have also, in the course of this thread, learned more about Byrons dealings with people than I knew before - and adjusted my already low opinion of his morals further down.

Personally, I will still try to engage him in discussion, should he wish to do so. If other have 'given up on him', either because of his incivility, lack of (proper) responses or because he is so financially involved as to be untrustworthy, that is certainly their prerogative and I am not trying to criticize them!

This does not mean that I like the guy, or agree with him on some point that you do not. It simply means I am open to discussion to an almost obscene degree (the downsides of a classical education...)

Initially, I was trying to 'call him out' to do so. Afterwards, I was explaining myself in response to other's opinions and the subject. And finally, I was responding to personal attacks.
I apologize for neither of these - but I am sorry for any misunderstandings along the way, especially regarding when I was doing what.

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Postby Freakzilla » 15 Sep 2008 10:47

This is a tough crowd, huh? :wink:
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