Calling out Byron (politely)

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Lundse
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Postby Lundse » 15 Sep 2008 10:48

SandChigger wrote:Some of us wanted and hoped that Byron would engage in open and honest discussion of the new novels and situation that has spawned them. (Teg can avow that EVEN NOW I still waver on the question of Byron and his motivations and all.) But it's too obvious that that sort of thing is never going to happen.

As someone pointed out above, he could have used any user name in the world here but chose to use "Spice Grandson". (Just as he initially used an inappropriate one over on Dead 'Keen.) What identity does he have other than as a member of the HLP?


Maybe he already has an anonymous account here... :shock:

Let the fingerpointing begin...

I suspect Orald :D

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TheDukester
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Postby TheDukester » 15 Sep 2008 10:53

Lundse wrote:I suspect Orald :D

Okay, now that was funny! :)
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Postby Secher_Nbiw » 15 Sep 2008 11:04

Lundse wrote:Maybe he already has an anonymous account here... :shock:

Let the fingerpointing begin...

I suspect Orald :D


Hehe, yeah that is quite funny!
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A Thing of Eternity
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Postby A Thing of Eternity » 15 Sep 2008 11:50

Holy shit, calm down children.

I fully get why many people would be a bit pissed off at someone trying to take the high road with Byron (that's all Lundse is trying to do), and definitly can see why they would be a bit pissed that Lundse posted that he thought the extreme Byron bashing here was too much after the way Byron has treated a lot of the people here. As for the second, after everyone explained some history about this Lundse admitted that he could see why everyone had gone off on Byron like that, and as for the first - grow up. Anyone who's read Lundse's previous interactions with both Byron and other preeks and makes comments like "must be KJA's sockpuppet", of calling him a preek fanboy is making an ass out of themselves.

That said, Lundse you may as well give it up, there is a zero chance that Byron will come here for intelligent Dune conversation. Byron refuses to engage in anything other than shifty "point dodging" discussion anywhere, and he certainly won't do anything more here. He's made his bed and strapped himself in - it's done and over.

TheDukester wrote:
Lundse wrote:I suspect Orald :D

Okay, now that was funny! :)


Indeed. :lol:
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Lundse
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Postby Lundse » 15 Sep 2008 15:27

A Thing of Eternity wrote:That said, Lundse you may as well give it up, there is a zero chance that Byron will come here for intelligent Dune conversation. Byron refuses to engage in anything other than shifty "point dodging" discussion anywhere, and he certainly won't do anything more here. He's made his bed and strapped himself in - it's done and over.


True, true. And 'point dodging' is the best description I have seen of his... argumentative style. But hey, there is no such things as one style being better than another, right? It's all a matter of taste anyway. Every reading of a book is equally valid from someones point of view. :roll:

A Thing of Eternity wrote:
TheDukester wrote:
Lundse wrote:I suspect Orald :D

Okay, now that was funny! :)

Indeed. :lol:


It was the suspicious family resemblance between his avatar and Frank himself... That's what aroused my suspicion... :D
Last edited by Lundse on 15 Sep 2008 15:47, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Lundse » 15 Sep 2008 15:49

Baraka Bryan wrote:
Lundse wrote:True, true. And 'point dodging' is the best description I have seen of his... argumentative style. But hey, there is no such things as one style being better than another, right? It's all a matter of taste anyway.



sorry but no. an "argumentative style" that depends on avoiding the question to win the argument is no longer an "argumentative" style, it's a failure to communicate.

unfortunately for relativists, not everything is relative...


Sorry if it was unclear. I tried adding a bit more sarcasm with an edit...

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Postby Rakis » 15 Sep 2008 22:42

Lundse wrote:
Rakis wrote:
Lundse wrote:
Rakis wrote:BEST POST IN THIS THREAD :)


So you believe a call for civil discussion should be subjected to ridicule, sprinkled with lies (I have linked to on-topic posts by Byron here)?


Nothing personnal with you...

But i'm WAY pass civil discussion with Byron...He's hypocrite,that's no lie...


Whatever you think about Byron, or civil discussions with him - how does that translate to a post ridiculing me being good?
The post you refer to was insulting to me, personally. Supporting that sort of thing is 'something personal with me'...

You may have written him off entirely, what you are supporting above is writing me off too (and lying about me, too, aparrently) - for wanting to remain open to discussion...


Lundse, as i said, this was not directed at you,but i can understand why you would think it was, and i apologize for it...

Indeed there has been some situations with Byron. I understand what you mean and what you are trying to do. And I also sympatize with others, like Teg, who like me, are beyond any call to Byron...

I can appreciate your motives and explainations. And i think you could be right about Orald...
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Postby Lundse » 16 Sep 2008 02:54

Rakis wrote:Lundse, as i said, this was not directed at you,but i can understand why you would think it was, and i apologize for it...

Indeed there has been some situations with Byron. I understand what you mean and what you are trying to do. And I also sympatize with others, like Teg, who like me, are beyond any call to Byron...

I can appreciate your motives and explainations. And i think you could be right about Orald...


Thanks for clearing that up - I am really pleased that such misunderstandings can be straightened out. I fully expect to be hated, ignored and abused at DN - I would sorry to lose the opportunity to come here and bitch about it :-)

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Just a wee bit of his-story....

Postby SandChigger » 16 Sep 2008 07:56

Maybe everyone needs to be reminded again that Lundse and I joined DN about the same time, right after it started up, after fighting TAZ (The Almighty Zeus) for a while over on Wikipedia? There's absolutely no question of Lundse being a sockpuppet or secret supporter of the New Crap.

Lundse unfortunately went in with guns blazing back then. And was summarily banned and deleted. (Although TAZ kept mentioning him and referring to him for a LONG time. :lol: )
"Let the dead give water to the dead. As for me, it's NO MORE FUCKING TEARS!"

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Re: Just a wee bit of his-story....

Postby Lundse » 16 Sep 2008 08:36

SandChigger wrote:Lundse unfortunately went in with guns blazing back then. And was summarily banned and deleted. (Although TAZ kept mentioning him and referring to him for a LONG time. :lol: )


I still log in using an anonymizing service :-)

Dunno if Byron knows (my new login name is "lundse2", it does not take a brainsurgeon) - I suspect he is accepting it as long as he does not have to deal with it.

TAZ has been really quiet lately, though. I miss stuff like this:

Lundse wrote:The Bene Gesserit "forgetting" that the Tleilaxu are religious fanatics. Even if they changed their opinion it is weird how in later books they do not realize "we were wrong" but that they think "we just discovered something entirely new and unthought-of".


TAZ wrote:That is just pretentiousness on the part of the BG... which is very common amongst them. Plus, they probably don't want to admit it... But the main point is history is 1) written by the victors, 2) bits and pieces get lost and 3) things change - sometimes.


Things change - sometimes :-)

This is on par with Byron's "And one of Frank's prime themes is to question what you know ...or think you know."

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Postby TheDukester » 16 Sep 2008 10:43

What does that even mean?!? :lol: :? :roll: :lol:

Christsakes, between that one and Byron's legendary "Frank always said things aren't as they seem" bullshit, it's a wonder that a preek ever loses an argument ...
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Postby GamePlayer » 16 Sep 2008 12:39

It's nice to know the wall of ignorance is still a time honored troll strategy across the internet :) :wink:
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And now I am the one who has to vent... :-)

Postby Lundse » 16 Sep 2008 16:12

...if I did not understand the wish to abuse Byron before, I certainly do now. Instead, I will show this little example and let it speak for itself.

Lets just say that if part of his job-description is to deflect criticism without confronting it, he is doing a marvelous job!

---

boardadmin wrote:
lundse2 wrote:
boardadmin wrote:How old is the Jihad by the time of Alia's reign? And the Baron's? Would they remember what the Jihad was about and how and whom it was fought by. That's not very realistic.

Pretty damn old.

Exactly. And what happens to history as time passes?


Depends. Some things are forgotten. Things like the near-annihilation of mankind is not; not without good reason.


boardadmin wrote:
lundse2 wrote:Luckily, they have the O.C bible, which was written just after the Jihad. That might have given a mention of a reason or two behind the jihad and the prohibits which _everyone is still following_.

Quotes please.


On what? Are you denying the OC bible exists at the time of Dune? That it was written shortly after the jihad? That it contained religious commandments and information on the Jihad?

Just let me know on which of these points you would like a quote.

Or are you speculating that the religious manual written to help mankind come together after the great upheaval that the Jihad was, does not mention in any way the reason behind the Jihad? That somewhere among its multitude of pages on why 'man may not be replaced' and the like, there is no single mention of Omnius?


boardadmin wrote:
lundse2 wrote:Also, Alia has this Other Memory going for her...

Quotes please.


Are you frigging kidding me?!? Do you want a quote for Alia having Other Memory?


boardadmin wrote:
lundse2 wrote:Very odd that she has contemporary memories of people being killed and enslaved by an AI gone rogue, but still believes that 'you could never distrust a machine'. (I feel like reminding, at this point, that whatever other modalities she had toward this machine, she believes that it would not make sense to distrust it.

Alia is an abomination. The Baron is using her as a manipulative tool. You're going to trust these two?


For the love of god, I just (as a courtesy) included a note that her desire for the machine is another thing from her knowledge about it. And I have told< you this before, many times. Do you not agree that wanting an icecream and believing it is strawberry-flavoured are two different things?
Alia was a 'compliant' machine. The reason for that desire is that 'you could never distrust a machine'. We agree that her desire is twisted, morally corrupt and heavily influenced by the baron. But there is no single reason, from a reading of any of Frank work, to believe that she is mistaken that a machine, once aquired, would be compliant and trustworthy.

I have asked you before to back this up. Quotes please, as they say. Give me just one hint that Alia is being fooled with regards to her Other Memory. One hint that she is remembering wrong, or her memory is being manipulated. Frank never questioned the precision of Other Memory, only its implications.

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Postby Serkanner » 17 Sep 2008 05:12

Is this the right time to post a "we told you so" message?

:wink:

I read Byron's request for a quote for the existence of Alia's OM. I nearly peed my pants after that. He can not be that ignorant, can he?
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Postby Lundse » 17 Sep 2008 05:19

Serkanner wrote:Is this the right time to post a "we told you so" message?

:wink:


Now would be the time, yes :-)


Serkanner wrote:I read Byron's request for a quote for the existence of Alia's OM. I nearly peed my pants after that. He can not be that ignorant, can he?


Time for my 'I told you so' - polite attempts at conversation did bring a smile, yes? :-)

And, as you state yourself, proof that in order to defend the prequels, one needs to stoop to unfathomable levels of ignorance - we knew that, but I guess I am just a sucker for proofs...

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Postby Serkanner » 17 Sep 2008 05:21

Touché
"... the mystery of life isn't a problem to solve but a reality to experience."

“There is no escape—we pay for the violence of our ancestors.”

Sandrider: "Keith went to Bobo's for a weekend of drinking, watched some DVDs,
and wrote a Dune Novel."

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Postby SandChigger » 17 Sep 2008 08:53

Obviously he wants a direct quote stating and proving that she remembers what you're claiming she should be able to. It's not enough to point out that she has OM. :roll:
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Postby Freakzilla » 17 Sep 2008 09:19

See how he responds to this:

"Let me make it clear," she said. Briefly, she explained how she had
awakened to Reverend Mother awareness before birth, a terrified fetus with the
knowledge of countless lives embedded in her nerve cells -- and all this after
the death of her father.
"I know my father as my mother knew him," she said. "In every last detail of
every experience she shared with him. In a way, I am my mother. I have all her
memories up to the moment when she drank the Water of Life and entered the
trance of transmigration."

~Dune Messiah
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Postby Lundse » 17 Sep 2008 10:59

SandChigger wrote:Obviously he wants a direct quote stating and proving that she remembers what you're claiming she should be able to. It's not enough to point out that she has OM. :roll:


You're probably right. I will have to hold him by the hand as we go from...

1 - Alia has OM
2 - OM goes back to the Jihad
3 - Alia had OM from the Jihad (1 + 2)

And then onto...

4 - People at the time of the Jihad knew a giant fucking robot was trying to murder them.
5 - Alia knew a giant fucking robot was trying to murder mankind (3 + 4)

And so on ad nauseam...


But of course, he will 'get off' underway and simply abandon the discussion.

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Postby TheDukester » 17 Sep 2008 11:11

The Two Douchebags and their spineless yes-man Byron are finding out the hard way that it was a colossal mistake to try to insert their hiked-out prose into the middle of established Dune canon.

It's one thing to write prequels set in the distant past ... it's also possible to invent a story about some alleged "notes" and write a story set in the future ... but it's quite another thing to try to jam your horrible writing into the middle of an established set of events and still make everything line up correctly.

A smart writer who had any respect at all for the source material might be able to pull it off. Sadly, neither Twit 1 or Twit 2 has ever been accused of an abundance of intelligence, and both clearly have some sort of built-in hatred for Frank Herbert and/or the Dune universe.
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Postby Hunchback Jack » 17 Sep 2008 15:09

TheDukester wrote:A smart writer who had any respect at all for the source material might be able to pull it off.


A smart writer wouldn't try. :)

HBJ

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Postby Mandy » 17 Sep 2008 18:27

They just don't care about anything but making as much money off the Dune name as they can.

The HLP will never get another penny from me. I won't even see the movie till it's on HBO.

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Postby A Thing of Eternity » 17 Sep 2008 18:35

Mandy wrote:They just don't care about anything but making as much money off the Dune name as they can.

The HLP will never get another penny from me. I won't even see the movie till it's on HBO.


Shit, I'd forgotten about that. I want to see it in theaters but I'm not giving them another penny either... hmmm. I think what I'll do is pay for a different movie and then just go sit down in the Dune theatre. :D That should do the trick for me.
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Postby Hunchback Jack » 17 Sep 2008 18:44

A Thing of Eternity wrote:Shit, I'd forgotten about that. I want to see it in theaters but I'm not giving them another penny either... hmmm. I think what I'll do is pay for a different movie and then just go sit down in the Dune theatre. :D That should do the trick for me.


Dude, you're a fucking genius! I must remember that trick.

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Postby A Thing of Eternity » 17 Sep 2008 19:03

It just came to me. I mean, I HAVE to see sandworms on the big screen, regardless of the suckitude of the rest of the film, but I can't give the Hacks money... it came to me like a vision. :twisted:
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