The notes... (yeah, right)

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The notes... (yeah, right)

Postby Lundse » 17 Sep 2008 12:17

I came across something on the whole 'Jessica being forced on the duke' vs. 'the duke sending buyers for her'.
It seems the nitwits have defended this one rather vigorously:

Hack #1 and Brian 'I piss on my father's grave' Herbert wrote:The Leto/Jessica meeting scene in HOUSE HARKONNEN was actually written by Frank Herbert himself and found in his notes. The events shown in HOUSE HARKONNEN are consistent with the original notes.


Far be it for me to assume these two are necessarily telling the truth, but this is one of the few times they actually refer to the notes.
This leads me to believe that they actually exist - I would not be surprised to find that FH toyed with the idea of fleshing out Jessica and Leto's first meeting, or that Leto was reluctant to take a concubine (something which is still very possible from a reading of Dune alone).

It also raises the question of why they do not defend more stuff in this way...


I think it is pretty safe to assume that if they had a scene or a specific note on eg. Omnius (to take a completely non-sensical example), they would make a similar defence based on the notes.

So, anything else they have specifically pointed to? It might mean that those bits have some small speck of Frank Herbert's ideas in them - mangled beyond belief, of course.

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Postby Freakzilla » 17 Sep 2008 12:24

There are notes and then there is the "Dune 7 Outline". It's the outline I don't believe in.
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Postby Ghost » 17 Sep 2008 12:33

According their source, the Dune 7 outline was found in a CD inside the box :lol: :wink:

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Postby Freakzilla » 17 Sep 2008 13:00

Ghost wrote:According their source, the Dune 7 outline was found in a CD inside the box :lol: :wink:


I believe it was on two 3-1/2" floppy discs, or so they say.
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Re: The notes... (yeah, right)

Postby Tleilax Master B » 17 Sep 2008 13:21

Lundse wrote:I came across something on the whole 'Jessica being forced on the duke' vs. 'the duke sending buyers for her'.
It seems the nitwits have defended this one rather vigorously:

Hack #1 and Brian 'I piss on my father's grave' Herbert wrote:The Leto/Jessica meeting scene in HOUSE HARKONNEN was actually written by Frank Herbert himself and found in his notes. The events shown in HOUSE HARKONNEN are consistent with the original notes.


Far be it for me to assume these two are necessarily telling the truth, but this is one of the few times they actually refer to the notes.
This leads me to believe that they actually exist - I would not be surprised to find that FH toyed with the idea of fleshing out Jessica and Leto's first meeting, or that Leto was reluctant to take a concubine (something which is still very possible from a reading of Dune alone).

It also raises the question of why they do not defend more stuff in this way...


I think it is pretty safe to assume that if they had a scene or a specific note on eg. Omnius (to take a completely non-sensical example), they would make a similar defence based on the notes.

So, anything else they have specifically pointed to? It might mean that those bits have some small speck of Frank Herbert's ideas in them - mangled beyond belief, of course.


Well, the Jessica/Leto thing has already been explained, much to many of our dissatisfaction. As it turns out, that alternate scene was written in Frank's notes, according to Brian. It was a scene written for the David Lynch movie. Brian says it himself (can't remember exactly where, but I think it may have been on the interview at the end of the Hunters audiobook--I'll find out). The decision was made to not include it in the movie, but Frank had written up a draft of the scene....

Amazing how "its in the notes" can mean so much or so little......
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Re: The notes... (yeah, right)

Postby Lundse » 17 Sep 2008 13:31

Tleilax Master B wrote:Well, the Jessica/Leto thing has already been explained, much to many of our dissatisfaction. As it turns out, that alternate scene was written in Frank's notes, according to Brian. It was a scene written for the David Lynch movie. Brian says it himself (can't remember exactly where, but I think it may have been on the interview at the end of the Hunters audiobook--I'll find out). The decision was made to not include it in the movie, but Frank had written up a draft of the scene....

Amazing how "its in the notes" can mean so much or so little......


And far you can stretch it...

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Postby A Thing of Eternity » 17 Sep 2008 13:41

The Dune 7 Notes... I'm not sure that I don't believe they exist. I do find it interesting though that they have expressly stated that The Notes were 2.5 pages long - but when Omphalos saw them at a book store the other day they said that The Notes were 35 pages exactly.

Also, they have said that The Notes were detailed and in depth, then again they've said that The Notes only contain "clues" and "hints" - and I don't think they've ever out and said that The Notes called for the Enemy to be machines (they did say something about there being mention of a story arc from way back at the BJ though, anyone have the quote?).

What I find perplexing is that they have The Notes, and they have said they will never be shown to the public. Of all the things I've ever heard them say this is the one I believe. So what I find strange about that is that, since no one will ever see the notes they really could say anything is in them and never get called on it. But they don't. They have never (to my knowledge) said that FH specifically wrote in The Notes that the Enemy was AI, they could have easily said this, but they haven't. They've said things that seem to say that FH was "hinting" at AI in The Notes. Same goes for Norma and the uber-KH plots - they've never to my knowledge actually said that those were in the notes. They could have. But they didn't. They seem to be following some kind of personal (if twisted) honour on this subject, refusing to out and truly lie about what FH's intentions were, and the fact that they refuse to simply state that those plots were expressly put forth by FH in The Notes (which would be by far easier for them than the beating around the bush they do now) really is the closest thing to proof that those plots are not in the notes. Period.

Also, Byron also steadfastly refuses to out and say things like that too. He hides behind the farce of an excuse "I only saw the notes briefly, about ten years ago and haven't seen them since". Bull. Shit. No fucking way a Dune fan could just glance at those notes, not even a modest fan. No fucking way that after years of defending his uncle and KJA against our accusations that he wouldn't want to at least check for himself whether we were right. Bull. Shit. If there are notes, he's seen em, and remembers them. He knows that the notes don't expressly say the enemy was AI, he knows they don't have the UKH he knows they don't have normacle.
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Postby Tleilax Master B » 17 Sep 2008 14:11

A Thing of Eternity wrote:The Dune 7 Notes... I'm not sure that I don't believe they exist. I do find it interesting though that they have expressly stated that The Notes were 2.5 pages long - but when Omphalos saw them at a book store the other day they said that The Notes were 35 pages exactly.

For the sake of clarity though, I am certainly not defending these cocks, the Outline was 2.5 pages, the notes 35.

Also, they have said that The Notes were detailed and in depth, then again they've said that The Notes only contain "clues" and "hints" - and I don't think they've ever out and said that The Notes called for the Enemy to be machines (they did say something about there being mention of a story arc from way back at the BJ though, anyone have the quote?).

If I'm not mistaken, I think they say that the notes indicate that Marty and Daniel have some connection with the BJ--but not 100% positive-its hard to keep up with all their bullshit...

What I find perplexing is that they have The Notes, and they have said they will never be shown to the public. Of all the things I've ever heard them say this is the one I believe. So what I find strange about that is that, since no one will ever see the notes they really could say anything is in them and never get called on it. But they don't. They have never (to my knowledge) said that FH specifically wrote in The Notes that the Enemy was AI, they could have easily said this, but they haven't. They've said things that seem to say that FH was "hinting" at AI in The Notes. Same goes for Norma and the uber-KH plots - they've never to my knowledge actually said that those were in the notes. They could have. But they didn't. They seem to be following some kind of personal (if twisted) honour on this subject, refusing to out and truly lie about what FH's intentions were, and the fact that they refuse to simply state that those plots were expressly put forth by FH in The Notes (which would be by far easier for them than the beating around the bush they do now) really is the closest thing to proof that those plots are not in the notes. Period.

I have a theory on all that. I think that Brian hasn't personally ruled out making some $$$$ on those notes eventually. Right now they don't want to add any fuel to our fire, because they know we would go through it with a fine-toothed comb and expose them. But perhaps years from now, when the money from these books dwindles, Brian might need a few extra bucks and may want to reveal them afterall........for some cold hard $$$$.

Also, Byron also steadfastly refuses to out and say things like that too. He hides behind the farce of an excuse "I only saw the notes briefly, about ten years ago and haven't seen them since". Bull. Shit. No fucking way a Dune fan could just glance at those notes, not even a modest fan. No fucking way that after years of defending his uncle and KJA against our accusations that he wouldn't want to at least check for himself whether we were right. Bull. Shit. If there are notes, he's seen em, and remembers them. He knows that the notes don't expressly say the enemy was AI, he knows they don't have the UKH he knows they don't have normacle.


I have a theory on this too. Byron is relatively meaningless in the HLP. He is an aspiring author and they didn't even give him a chance to participate in the rape...uh hemm, I mean writing..... of these books. Instead, they throw him a couple of bones in the form of a few bucks now and then, and assign him to the thankless and menial task of running the "official" forum---which I suspect they periodically step in and force him to ban people and make changes, like when one of the crybabies (AKA Web druid) go crying like a bitch with a skinned knee to one of their book signings.......
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Postby Serkanner » 17 Sep 2008 14:15

To me it very simple. As long as the notes are not verified as genuine and published they don't exist. Anybody can claim to have notes from some important writer ... like the time the diaries of Adolf Hitler were found for example. You need to have a verification whether it is the genuine thing or not, don't you?
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Re: The notes... (yeah, right)

Postby GamePlayer » 17 Sep 2008 14:32

Tleilax Master B wrote:Amazing how "its in the notes" can mean so much or so little......


What's even more amazing is how long they've been able to string readers along with that brand of snake oil.
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Postby A Thing of Eternity » 17 Sep 2008 14:32

Tleilax Master B wrote:
A Thing of Eternity wrote:The Dune 7 Notes... I'm not sure that I don't believe they exist. I do find it interesting though that they have expressly stated that The Notes were 2.5 pages long - but when Omphalos saw them at a book store the other day they said that The Notes were 35 pages exactly.

For the sake of clarity though, I am certainly not defending these cocks, the Outline was 2.5 pages, the notes 35.


Which notes though? When I say The Notes I'm referring to the outline. As far as notes about Dune in general go I think they claim to have far more than 35 pages, boxes and boxes IIRC. Omph will have to maybe clearify this, but it sounds to me like they were saying that the Dune 7 Notes/Outline was 35 pages, which contradicts earlier statements they've made.
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Postby Tleilax Master B » 17 Sep 2008 15:28

A Thing of Eternity wrote:
Tleilax Master B wrote:
A Thing of Eternity wrote:The Dune 7 Notes... I'm not sure that I don't believe they exist. I do find it interesting though that they have expressly stated that The Notes were 2.5 pages long - but when Omphalos saw them at a book store the other day they said that The Notes were 35 pages exactly.

For the sake of clarity though, I am certainly not defending these cocks, the Outline was 2.5 pages, the notes 35.


Which notes though? When I say The Notes I'm referring to the outline. As far as notes about Dune in general go I think they claim to have far more than 35 pages, boxes and boxes IIRC. Omph will have to maybe clearify this, but it sounds to me like they were saying that the Dune 7 Notes/Outline was 35 pages, which contradicts earlier statements they've made.


What I have heard is that the "dune 7" notes were the 2 1/2 page outlline on the floppy disk-the one they show a picture of on the official site :roll: . A box was found with general dune notes, by Frank reportedly, that had the scribblings and notes that Frank did. I do know for certain that the new Leto/jessica scene was allegedly in the "box of notes" and was in fact a draft scene for the movie that never got shot. I know this because I remember being FURIOUS that they had left that little detail out, knowing damn well that its their judgement on what to include and what not to that would make people like me most angry.
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Postby Sole Man » 17 Sep 2008 15:28

Serkanner wrote: ... like the time the diaries of Adolf Hitler were found for example.



I'm reading MEIN KAMPF right now. That really doesn't have anything to do with what you're talking about but I felt like mentioning it.

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Postby Tleilax Master B » 17 Sep 2008 15:29

^^ uh, ok. :?
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Postby Hunchback Jack » 17 Sep 2008 15:37

I think there are two sets of material being discussed here: the "Dune 7" material, and Frank's source material for the original 6 books.

The Leto/Jessica meeting (whether for the movie or a scene in a book) would exist in the latter, which I firmly believe exists. in "The Road to Dune", I recall mention of hundreds (thousands?) of pages of source material (found in Brian's garage/attic/whatever). That's plausible. Not that they used a fraction of it in RtD, but anyhoo ...

Any alternate scenes in these notes would not be canon, IMHO, if they contradict what's in the published books.

The Dune 7 material is more doubtful. From House Atreides:

A scant two weeks after our meeting, I received a telephone call from an estate lawyer who had handled matters involving my mother and father. He informed me that two safety-deposit boxes belonging to Frank Herbert had turned up in a suburb of Seattle, boxes that none of us knew existed. I made an appointment to meet with the bank authorities, and in an increasing air of excitement the safety-deposit boxes were opened. Inside were papers and old-style floppy computer disks that included comprehensive notes from an unpublished DUNE 7 -- the long-awaited sequel to CHAPTERHOUSE: DUNE! Now Kevin and I knew for certain where Frank Herbert had been headed, and we could weave the events of
our prequel into a future grand finale for the series.


From this it's unclear whether the "papers" included the Dune 7 material, or whether it was just the disks that did. Regardless, the Dune 7 material is described as "comprehensive notes".

This flatly contradicts the account Brian gives in the Hunters audiobook interview, in that he says the "outline" contained just "hints and clues", and was 2 or 3 pages long. Not "comprehensive".

Similarly, the "35 pages" cannot refer to the outline, nor to the original source material. It's possible that the Dune 7 material contained both notes and and outline, but then it's odd that Brian didn't mention the notes in the Hunters interview.

Personally, I believe the 2-3 page outline probably exists, and that it included just a bunch of plot ideas in no particular order. I think KJA/BH probably ignored as much of that outline as they used.

Finally, it's worth noting that in the case of Omnius, they have admitted that he is completely their own invention, and that they shoehorned him into Dune 7.

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Postby Tleilax Master B » 17 Sep 2008 15:56

^^ Yup, and same thing for Erasmus. They admit that they made him up and wanted him to have a Mengele-type personality.

Reading the above, one might deduce there was:

-Boxes and boxes of original Frank Dune series notes
-A floppy disk with the Dune 7 outline (about 2.5 pages)
-35 pages of paper notes dealing specifically with "dune 7"

Who the fuck knows. I want to see all of that shit. Every last stinking page. There is no telling what they have drawn out of these "notes" and used that are similar to the jessica/leto movie scene. For all we know Frank wrote "Marty and Daniel are robots" then scribbled out to the side "that idea is fucking stupid, scratch it"---then the Hacks twain said "but marty and daniel are robots--its says it in the notes!!!" :roll:
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Postby A Thing of Eternity » 17 Sep 2008 16:06

Obviously there is Dune material and Dune 7 material, but I'm not so sure about this breakdown Masta B.

Tleilax Master B wrote:-Boxes and boxes of original Frank Dune series notes
-A floppy disk with the Dune 7 outline (about 2.5 pages)
-35 pages of paper notes dealing specifically with "dune 7"


I feel pretty confident that we've caught them in a lie here, I don't think they meant what you have about (again, maybe Omph can add context to that 35 pages comment). The reason I feel sure about this is that I don't think they'd make a disinction between "notes" and "outlines", I would, but they wouldn't. This is the first we've ever heard about there being more than 2.5 pages of Dune 7 material, why wouldn't they have said they had more earlier when they were in the hot seat about it?

And I agree with you totally about the kinds of wild interpretations they probably made, which is exactly why they don't want to release the notes. IF THEY HAD FOLLOWED THE NOTES THEY WOULD RELEASE THEM TO PROOVE IT. Plain and simple.
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Postby Hunchback Jack » 17 Sep 2008 16:40

A Thing of Eternity wrote:I feel pretty confident that we've caught them in a lie here, I don't think they meant what you have about (again, maybe Omph can add context to that 35 pages comment). The reason I feel sure about this is that I don't think they'd make a disinction between "notes" and "outlines", I would, but they wouldn't. This is the first we've ever heard about there being more than 2.5 pages of Dune 7 material, why wouldn't they have said they had more earlier when they were in the hot seat about it?


I tend to agree. Particularly when grilled about it during the Hunters audiobook interview. Scott Brick pressed them on the issue, and Brian only talked about a 2.5 page outline. If there were "35 pages" of other Dune 7 notes that they drew on, you'd think they would have said as much.

Relevant part of the interview here.

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Postby Nekhrun » 17 Sep 2008 17:29

[quote="A Thing of Eternity"]Which notes though? When I say The Notes I'm referring to the outline. As far as notes about Dune in general go I think they claim to have far more than 35 pages, boxes and boxes IIRC. Omph will have to maybe clearify this, but it sounds to me like they were saying that the Dune 7 Notes/Outline was 35 pages, which contradicts earlier statements they've made.[ /quote]

When I hear notes I think of everything but the outline. This is part of the problem. They're using notes for books he's already written and adding in Frank's material that he purposely left out. The ultimate slap in the face. They're telling Frank that he didn't know what was best for Dune.

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Postby Rakis » 17 Sep 2008 22:55

Tleilax Master B wrote:Who the fuck knows. I want to see all of that shit. Every last stinking page. There is no telling what they have drawn out of these "notes" and used that are similar to the jessica/leto movie scene. For all we know Frank wrote "Marty and Daniel are robots" then scribbled out to the side "that idea is fucking stupid, scratch it"---then the Hacks twain said "but marty and daniel are robots--its says it in the notes!!!" :roll:


Yes...they may have taken ideas that Frank would have never taken, but thought about...and it's KJA's style to take something and make it bigger than it should...
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Postby Serkanner » 21 Sep 2008 05:10

dunenovels.com Forum Index » Paul of Dune » Dragon-Con

Just for laughs:

author: batitude

The fact is the outline (which was only 34 pages) has been published in a completed form. As Hunters of DUNE and Sandworms of DUNE.

I have met Brian and Kevin on several occasions(as well as the rest of the Herbert Family) and it has been made VERY clear that they worked directly off FH's outline for the book.

They also used his notes for the creation of the other trilogy's (he was going to do the Butlerian Jihad with Brian before his death).

While Brian and Kevin's style dffers from Frank's the core story is the same he would have produced had he finished the series. I can't really understand the continuing accusations by fanboy's that they somehow made it all up.

I've probably read the original DUNE more times than this entire forum combined and have read each successive book upon it's release and I find no need for the notes to be published.
From a publishing standpoint there was enough challenge to get the complete DUNE books published (They switched publishers after the prequels) It would be virtually impossible to get a book of notes published.

Maybe just maybe if the Peter Berg Film is a HUGE success they might publish the notes as part of a larger DUNE history.

For those looking for more insight into Frank Herbert I would recommend DREAMER of DUNE which is one of the finest Biographies I've ever read.

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Postby SandChigger » 21 Sep 2008 06:01

Someone who has met the "authors" several times (to his credit, at least he doesn't claim to be halfway up their colons like Shawn Speakman/Web Druid does) and who was so awestruck(?) that he swallowed their chum...hook, line and sinker.

Is he maybe connected with one of the publishers?

(Didn't click last night when I first saw that, or a few minutes ago when I was posting on T(A)U, but I'm wondering now. Something familiar about that name.... :?

If he is connected with the publishing industry, it would explain his PoV, no? Of course he's going to support them.)
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Postby Tyrant » 21 Sep 2008 09:07

my favorite part is when he said he has read dune more than the whole forum combined...he doesnt know us very well does he...or dune for that matter
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Postby DuneFishUK » 21 Sep 2008 10:19

Tyrant wrote:my favorite part is when he said he has read dune more than the whole forum combined...he doesnt know us very well does he...or dune for that matter


Post-bannings I wouldn't be surprised if he was nearly correct... :wink:

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Postby Laphtiya » 21 Sep 2008 10:21

Tyrant wrote:my favorite part is when he said he has read dune more than the whole forum combined...he doesnt know us very well does he...or dune for that matter


Complete fabrication! Just read Paul of Dune and you'll know he hasn't even read Dune in any great detail. Or if he has read anything he just skimmed over Chapter House (which seems like thats all they did IMO). He just thinks that all Sci-Fi is the same, and what he doesn't realise is that the reason Dune was so fantastic was because it is completely different from any other Sci-Fi. Dune felt like a complete universe, like lord of the rings where everything was thought of. We had the ecology of Dune which made it seem like a real place. These new Dune books just seem flat and 2d. If they had "comprehensive" notes then, it wouldnt read like a 2d action adventure graphic novel without the pictures.

As for an outline/notes. Where I think it is possible that FH may have had some notes or ideas down on paper. It is clear by reading the sequals, that there was not much down on paper if anything. And the reason they do not wish to share it with us. Is because we would realise that the sequals are 100% there own material. I just wish they would stop lying to themselves and wake up and realise that they are just being pathetic.

I am reading House A at the moment. Now I like it in a sense that it is a entertaining book. But it has no where near the quality and depth of the originals. With Paul of Dune it seems like they are trying to stamp out the original history of Dune thinking that 20 years is enough time for people to have forgotten how good the originals are. Assuming that we wouldnt go back and reread them over and over.

The sad truth of the matter is that we will never get anything good anymore. FH has passed on, they had added a sloppy ending to the story killing off his line of work. And how we have "10'000 years of unexplored history" even THAT statement is wrong because FH himself said that the Spacing Guild was formed 10'000 years into earths current future so really FH left 20'000 years of unexplored history.