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Problem solved

Postby Simon » 26 Sep 2008 16:46

Here's the review from DN, problem solved.

Simon wrote:So finished Paul of Dune this morning, and of course I enjoyed it. This is no surprise really, I have enjoyed every addition to DUNE.

I really liked that Paul of Dune tied up some loose ends and was as brief as need be. I thought the books were going to be laid out like so: Paul of Dune and Jessica of Dune would feature the post DUNE jihad and Irulan of Dune was going to feature the War of Assassins plot line. So I was expecting everything that happened in PoD to occur over the course of the three volumes, I was really surprised, though pleased. (I'm curious to see what is going to be in the other two books.)

I was put off by the duel stories thing at first (I'm not a fan of reading multiple books at once, I prefer to give my full attention to one volume at a time) but once I saw the juxtaposing between Young Paul and Emperor Paul and realized that the core of this story was the examination of Paul's coming to terms with his need to employ duality, I found it easier to deal with.

Just to name a few things I was interested to see: We have a glimpse of the "twisting" process, we discover that House Tantor (Xavier Harkonnen's adoptive House) was the renegade family which burned Salusa, we see the BT KH, and what became of Feyd's daughter.

In the end, while not at all FH, this is the closest they have come to his classic style. If you aren't a fan of the other BH/KJA works then you will probably feel about the same on this one (though perhaps pleasantly surprised that they did address a number of OH continuity concerns, that's right, Duncan first blooded his sword on Grumman! :lol:) as for fellow fans of NuDune, you'll really enjoy this one.

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Postby Nekhrun » 26 Sep 2008 16:48

DELETE THIS SHIT!

Just kidding. I couldn't disagree more with it unless I actually read the whole review. :wink:

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Postby Serkanner » 26 Sep 2008 16:50

I miss a piece ... the part where it is stated the review was deleted from this site.
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Postby Simon » 26 Sep 2008 16:53

to Serk: Why not go and look at the thread dedicated to that topic professor.

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Postby SandChigger » 26 Sep 2008 17:34

Topic where? Still haven't learned to post links after all this time? :roll:

[Edit: Ah, found it here, in the wrong thread. :roll:]

Simon on the DN BBS wrote:
On a funny side note, this review was deleted over at Jacurutu.
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Why not go over there and issue a proper retraction?

As for your review, well, I don't know if you'll ever make anything with your art, but you've a definite future as an HLP shill.
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Postby SimonH » 26 Sep 2008 19:27

Simon wrote:to Serk: Why not go and look at the thread dedicated to that topic professor.


so why does it still say that your review was deleted over here?

Byron is the only person who deletes posts because of the opinion in the post.

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Postby GamePlayer » 26 Sep 2008 20:15

Wow, I guess Dumbnovels really is slow, if this stuff has to be posted here :)
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Postby TheDukester » 26 Sep 2008 20:51

How's that retraction coming? :roll: :roll:
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Postby SandChigger » 26 Sep 2008 21:09

NOT, evidently.

It's pretty fucking ridiculous to see BYRON MERRITT posting anywhere on the Net about HONESTY and PERSONAL INTEGRITY.

Byron, calling you a PUSSY doesn't even begin to do it justice. Kinda insults the pussies of the world, in fact....
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Postby Serkanner » 27 Sep 2008 05:59

Simon wrote:to Serk: Why not go and look at the thread dedicated to that topic professor.


Link please.
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Postby Sole Man » 27 Sep 2008 10:37

Simon? I thought you were dead...

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Re: Problem solved

Postby Tyrant » 27 Sep 2008 10:38

Simon wrote:Here's the review from DN, problem solved.

Simon wrote:So finished Paul of Dune this morning, and of course I enjoyed it. This is no surprise really, I have enjoyed every addition to DUNE.

I really liked that Paul of Dune tied up some loose ends and was as brief as need be. I thought the books were going to be laid out like so: Paul of Dune and Jessica of Dune would feature the post DUNE jihad and Irulan of Dune was going to feature the War of Assassins plot line. So I was expecting everything that happened in PoD to occur over the course of the three volumes, I was really surprised, though pleased. (I'm curious to see what is going to be in the other two books.)

I was put off by the duel stories thing at first (I'm not a fan of reading multiple books at once, I prefer to give my full attention to one volume at a time) but once I saw the juxtaposing between Young Paul and Emperor Paul and realized that the core of this story was the examination of Paul's coming to terms with his need to employ duality, I found it easier to deal with.

Just to name a few things I was interested to see: We have a glimpse of the "twisting" process, we discover that House Tantor (Xavier Harkonnen's adoptive House) was the renegade family which burned Salusa, we see the BT KH, and what became of Feyd's daughter.

In the end, while not at all FH, this is the closest they have come to his classic style. If you aren't a fan of the other BH/KJA works then you will probably feel about the same on this one (though perhaps pleasantly surprised that they did address a number of OH continuity concerns, that's right, Duncan first blooded his sword on Grumman! :lol:) as for fellow fans of NuDune, you'll really enjoy this one.


loose ends?...like what..maybe kja/bh loose ends ....but are you talking about any REAL loose ends...cause frank herbert didnt leave any ...which is why he never wrote this book
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Postby Ampoliros » 27 Sep 2008 11:42

Moved here from the review thread.

I'd love to have you respond to some questions. I'll try as hard as I can to be diplomatic. You remember Franks definition of diplomacy right?

Simon wrote:
So (I) finished Paul of Dune this morning, and of course I enjoyed it. This is no surprise really, I have enjoyed every addition to DUNE.

I really liked that Paul of Dune tied up some loose ends and was as brief as need be.

First question, Which loose ends? Brief?

Simon wrote:I thought the books were going to be laid out like so: Paul of Dune and Jessica of Dune would feature the post DUNE jihad and Irulan of Dune was going to feature the War of Assassins plot line. So I was expecting everything that happened in PoD to occur over the course of the three volumes, I was really surprised, though pleased. (I'm curious to see what is going to be in the other two books.)



A comment, this leaves me wondering what they intend to have in those 500-page books? More Assassination attempts? (I moved the rest of this to the post after so as not to interrupt the flow)

I was put off by the duel stories thing at first (I'm not a fan of reading multiple books at once, I prefer to give my full attention to one volume at a time) but once I saw the juxtaposing between Young Paul and Emperor Paul and realized that the core of this story was the examination of Paul's coming to terms with his need to employ duality, I found it easier to deal with.



Paul dealing with duality? He's prescient, something this book seems to want to forget. He has to deal with infinity. Bene Gesseritt and Mentat training alone would have taught him to deal with more than just simple duality. I don't remember any part of the Old Paul sections that asked him to deal with duality. I skimmed the young Paul sections as I can basically ignore them completely as having no basis at all for existing.

Just to name a few things I was interested to see: We have a glimpse of the "twisting" process, we discover that House Tantor (Xavier Harkonnen's adoptive House) was the renegade family which burned Salusa, we see the BT KH, and what became of Feyd's daughter.



To answer this I'd say "Wrong. Don't care, didn't happen. Wrong. Very Wrong. Marie Fenring is just about the most blasphemous part of this book. Just because she carries the bloodline does not make here a KH. One, she's female. Two, she's six. Three, Bene Gesseritt training, while good, does not make you an unstoppable killing machine. Four, being trained by daddy dearest to be a good assassin doesn't mean jack compared to being an Kwisatz Haderach. Marie is not a Reverend Mother, it is insulting to claim that she is almost as wise as Alia. They insinuate that Marie is both invisible to prescience and possibly is pre-born. They just didn't have the guts to go all the way and say it outright. I'm putting money that a Marie Ghola shows up in the next books. Thallo the "I'll show you!" smiling douche "KH" is another story.
Sorry I got into rant mode there. I do that when people belittle my intelligence and try to force feed me bullshit.

In the end, while not at all FH, this is the closest they have come to his classic style.


Ha Ha Good one! I can't believe Byron actually believed that you feel this way. This book is the closest they have come to recreating one of Frank Herbert's bowel movements.

If you aren't a fan of the other BH/KJA works then you will probably feel about the same on this one (though perhaps pleasantly surprised that they did address a number of OH continuity concerns, that's right, Duncan first blooded his sword on Grumman! Laughing) as for fellow fans of NuDune, you'll really enjoy this one.



Addressed our concerns? How, by breaking just about every rule that Frank made in the structure of his universe? By trying to spit in our face, and then failing miserable when the have to admit in the book that historical errors will be made. By claiming that we can't trust Irulan's facts to be accurate, they basically invalidate everything ever written in the Duneiverse including their own writing. Especially their own writing, as supposedly we are learning about young Paul to explain her Biography.

Duncan's sword is first bloodied, but of course we have to have him kick ass before that...er we'll give him another sword! That's exactly the kind of 'clever' bullshit they try to pull which only makes them deserve a bitch slap. Seriously how does that fool anyone? Simon, I'm looking at you. Please defend this if you dare.
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Postby trang » 27 Sep 2008 11:53

I wasnt going to say anything until I finished reading the book, but this review is pretty much trash.

I am 150 pages into POD (I got it at Borders for $8.00, was 40 percent off and had reward bucks) and wanted to read it so I could give it the lashing it deserves. So far I am not disapointed, it is as bad as I expected, actually worse.

Little to do with FH's dune or storyline. This book in the first part is nothing more than constant reiterations of they're storylines from there dune books.

They (being pinky and the brain) must have a deathly fetish about Paul and his birthplace. COUNT THIS, NO LESS THAN 4 TIMES IN 150 pages do they make statements about his birthplace!!

The cop out of using Irulan to explain awayt their story arcs is weak and an in insult.

The morons turn the fremen into bloodlust destroyers of everything and anything, this is really the biggest insult.

They have this incredible need to setup their chracters then kill them, and do it in a gory fashion.

I dont have everything memorized from the originals, but the story they have spun so far is just getting ridiculas. Im not sure about the fenring storyline but Im pretty sure its bogus crap.

The Tleilaxu storyline seems to be pretty much crap as well, but have to read further.

House vernius and IX, If memory serves.

I dont even remember the Maudru thing, but seems to be crap as well.

It goes on and on, and Im only a 1/4 the way thru. Will finish it today and have to look back and just blast away.

The writing is third person descriptive for the most part with limited dialogue which makes everything feel disconnected and foriegn.

I just have an ill feeling in my gut as I read it.

Maybe this will be the crowing destructive stroke that drives everyone back to the originals, and we can all just forget they ever wrote anything.

GodEmperor give me strength!!
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Postby Freakzilla » 27 Sep 2008 11:58

Did they really say that Marie Fenring is a KH?

There's just so much wrong with that...
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Postby SandChigger » 27 Sep 2008 12:02

They have to kill off most of their own characters because otherwise they might have problems explaining why they don't show up in the latter (real) Dune books.

Of course, it's hard to explain why such well-known elements as Omnius and Erasmus and the Muadru are never mentioned EVEN ONCE by FH, but that's just a hater question anyone, so who cares? :roll:
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Postby TheDukester » 27 Sep 2008 14:05

Simon, be sure to actually hit "submit" when you post your retraction over at that other place.
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Postby Ampoliros » 27 Sep 2008 15:59

Oh man, dude you owe me a bottle of asprin while I attempt to explain this paradox of logic. A bottle of premium whiskey will do.

Marie is trained as a BG by her mother. She uses the "BG INVISIBILTYZOMG" to watch her parents have sex. Fenring teaches her to be a spy and assassin.

She's four to six years old in this. Yet she's described as being possibly as wise as Alia. Its hinted that she's pre-born, but that's 'denied' by Fenring. Alia's scorpions are no threat to her, she plays with them. Marie claims "they won't sting me", suggesting again RM powers. Its also hinted that Paul never saw her in his visions, suggesting she's either prescient or invisible to prescience. Since there are no references to female Guild navigators that I'm aware of, this is hard to deny against all possibility, but I imagine the BG would have long ago infiltrated the Guild with a RM navigator if this were the case.

The Fenring assassination attempt (I just realized this one) uses poison that Margot is immune to because of her RM status to disable the guards and other guests. (Margot was a RM yes? I sure fucking hope so. Oh shit, no she wasn't OOPS.) Fenring is apparently 'out' of the area of effect, but Marie is possibly in it. Unless the table is considered a NCB shield or she is a pre-born RM.

They don't have the balls to do the thing which would make Marie explainable, which is just admit she's pre-born. Margot has already apparently given the finger to the sisterhood. INstead, just like a KJA superweapon, she just is.

They never say Marie is a KH. They just imply over and over that she is "special". I think they are making a mental failure in bridging Marie as the adopted daughter of Fenring, a failed KH, and the bloodline of the KH.

!) Marie is Feyd-Rautha (piece of the bloodline) and Margot's (Random Element with favorable genes) daughter.

2)The desired result of this bloodline is a KH, which is a MALE Bene Gesseritt.

3)Fenring is a failed KH, (Genetic Eunich, his genes cannot be passed along.

Apparently they seem to be thinking that somehow the Bene Gesseritt have created a female KH from two fathers, one of which is a eunuch.

IMHO Logic suggests that Marie is a candidate not only to become a Reverend Mother, but a Mentat as well. She is also a carrier of the KH bloodline with a possible KH as the result of a successful breeding. I think they are mixing up a female carrier of the KH bloodline with a product of the bloodline. Marie is nothing special. Its Marie's son who would be a threat. That would be an interesting story to follow, unfortunately they were forced to kill her off in the most retarded assassination attempt ever.

Fenring breaks down and cries when Alia kills Marie like a real father would. You know, the kind who doesn't endanger a six-year old girl in a bwilliant scheme. I really, really wanted them to homage Scooby Doo with Fenring saying "I would have gotten away with it if it wasn't for that meddling kid!" (Alia)

The reason for Fenring's plot is an amazing failure of Dune Universe Theory. He knows he might not be able to usurp Paul even if he kills him, but by killing him, he knows that someone will take his place and fill the vacuum, ending the Jihad.

I can't express in words how fucking huge a failure to understand the reasoning of Paul Muad'dib's character this is.
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Postby SandChigger » 27 Sep 2008 17:51

Did you catch the subtle change, though, in the crypts below Paul's citadel?

(Paul-Muad'Dib Atreides and Hasimir Fenring starring in...The Cask of Amuadriguano!)

Paul tells Fenring that he has always felt close to him, because the two of them are "failed KHs"...failed from the perspective of the Bene Gesserit which created them, he clarifies. Fenring was a failure because he didn't have the full KH mojo; Paul himself was a failure because he escaped their control.

Later in the scene when Fenring says something that sparks Paul's truthsense, there's something about Paul's prescience not working/never having worked around Fenring and speculation that it was conflict between the influences of two failed KHs.

Just like that, presented matter of factly, with no explanation or caveats. Paul is now a failed KH.

Edit: Actually, I need to correct this. Upon rereading, it's obvious that the latter reference is Paul thinking to himself, not a statement by the "narrator".

However, the fact remains that it is decidedly odd for Paul to be lumping himself together with Fenring and thinking of himself as a "failed" KH.

Sorry for any confusion.
Last edited by SandChigger on 28 Sep 2008 17:18, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Freakzilla » 27 Sep 2008 21:22

Yeah, Paul was such a failed KH that the Bene Gesserit organized a conspiracy to force him to donate his seed and still refered to him as the KH 5,000 years later.

IF a male survives the Truthsayer Drug/Water of Life, he is the KH. The BG are the ones that failed in their inability to note the signs in young Paul and take control of the situation.
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Postby Rakis » 27 Sep 2008 23:58

Well...Duncan can only be the one and only Ultimate Uber KH... :roll:

Another one of their twist to outdone FH... :crazy:
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Postby Simon » 28 Sep 2008 00:22

Freakzilla wrote:Did they really say that Marie Fenring is a KH?

There's just so much wrong with that...



No sir. She was extraordinarily gifted, but not KH or Norma style.

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Postby Ampoliros » 28 Sep 2008 01:11

gifted enough to be a threat to Paul Muad'dib. Bullshit.
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Postby Simon » 28 Sep 2008 01:43

Ampoliros wrote: Moved here from the review thread.

I'd love to have you respond to some questions. I'll try as hard as I can to be diplomatic. You remember Franks definition of diplomacy right?

Simon wrote:
So (I) finished Paul of Dune this morning, and of course I enjoyed it. This is no surprise really, I have enjoyed every addition to DUNE.

I really liked that Paul of Dune tied up some loose ends and was as brief as need be.

First question, Which loose ends? Brief?


Just to name a few things I was interested to see: We have a glimpse of the "twisting" process, we discover that House Tantor (Xavier Harkonnen's adoptive House) was the renegade family which burned Salusa, we see the BT KH, and what became of Feyd's daughter.


Loose ends: Just things like what we have above, The BT KH, Marie's fate, the beginnings of the fall of House Vernius.

Nothing that "answers it all!" by any means but interesting (IMO) little dangling threads (Of FH vintage and a few of their own) followed up.

Simon wrote:I thought the books were going to be laid out like so: Paul of Dune and Jessica of Dune would feature the post DUNE jihad and Irulan of Dune was going to feature the War of Assassins plot line. So I was expecting everything that happened in PoD to occur over the course of the three volumes, I was really surprised, though pleased. (I'm curious to see what is going to be in the other two books.)


Brief: Like I say above, I thought the story laid out in PoD would span Paul, Jessica and Irulan of Dune. I liked that the story was short and tight, it worked for me. I happen to agree with many of you where Hunters and sandworms is concerned regarding the need for two volumes.
While I liked the core story, I just felt like there were a few to many red herrings. I felt like PoD got to the meat of it's story with much less fuss then the previous two.

Ampoliros wrote:A comment, this leaves me wondering what they intend to have in those 500-page books? More Assassination attempts? (I moved the rest of this to the post after so as not to interrupt the flow)


I wonder myself, I haven't heard a word outside of things related to the story(s) featured PoD.

I was put off by the duel stories thing at first (I'm not a fan of reading multiple books at once, I prefer to give my full attention to one volume at a time) but once I saw the juxtaposing between Young Paul and Emperor Paul and realized that the core of this story was the examination of Paul's coming to terms with his need to employ duality, I found it easier to deal with.


Ampoliros wrote:Paul dealing with duality? He's prescient, something this book seems to want to forget. He has to deal with infinity. Bene Gesseritt and Mentat training alone would have taught him to deal with more than just simple duality. I don't remember any part of the Old Paul sections that asked him to deal with duality. I skimmed the young Paul sections as I can basically ignore them completely as having no basis at all for existing.


In PoD they show Paul reconciling his desire to rule as his fore fathers had, as "the People's Duke" and the conflicting mandatory need for the ruthlessness of his rule, as dictated by his desire to save humanity. At first he seems resistant to the reality of his vision's requirement. Where as in Dune Messiah (assuming the "expansion" timeline) he is past his resistance, mourning the necessity of his terrible purpose and it's looming climax (mainly the death of Chani).

Interestingly they didn't go into his refusal of becoming a "Man-worm", in CoD he mentions "the path he could not take", though as of PoD he hasn't come to that realization yet (seemingly).

Just to name a few things I was interested to see: We have a glimpse of the "twisting" process, we discover that House Tantor (Xavier Harkonnen's adoptive House) was the renegade family which burned Salusa, we see the BT KH, and what became of Feyd's daughter.


Ampoliros wrote:To answer this I'd say "Wrong. Don't care, didn't happen. Wrong. Very Wrong. Marie Fenring is just about the most blasphemous part of this book. Just because she carries the bloodline does not make here a KH. One, she's female. Two, she's six. Three, Bene Gesseritt training, while good, does not make you an unstoppable killing machine. Four, being trained by daddy dearest to be a good assassin doesn't mean jack compared to being an Kwisatz Haderach. Marie is not a Reverend Mother, it is insulting to claim that she is almost as wise as Alia. They insinuate that Marie is both invisible to prescience and possibly is pre-born. They just didn't have the guts to go all the way and say it outright. I'm putting money that a Marie Ghola shows up in the next books. Thallo the "I'll show you!" smiling douche "KH" is another story.
Sorry I got into rant mode there. I do that when people belittle my intelligence and try to force feed me bullshit.


She isn't a KH. Just "up there" in the gene pool. As for Thallo, I liked his brief appearence, though I Knew you gents would not. That was one of those parts that I thought might kill TMB or Nekhrun.

In the end, while not at all FH, this is the closest they have come to his classic style.


Ampoliros wrote:Ha Ha Good one! I can't believe Byron actually believed that you feel this way. This book is the closest they have come to recreating one of Frank Herbert's bowel movements.


I stress "while not at all FH". :?

If you aren't a fan of the other BH/KJA works then you will probably feel about the same on this one (though perhaps pleasantly surprised that they did address a number of OH continuity concerns, that's right, Duncan first blooded his sword on Grumman! Laughing) as for fellow fans of NuDune, you'll really enjoy this one.


Ampoliros wrote:Addressed our concerns? How, by breaking just about every rule that Frank made in the structure of his universe? By trying to spit in our face, and then failing miserable when the have to admit in the book that historical errors will be made. By claiming that we can't trust Irulan's facts to be accurate, they basically invalidate everything ever written in the Duniverse including their own writing. Especially their own writing, as supposedly we are learning about young Paul to explain her Biography.

Duncan's sword is first bloodied, but of course we have to have him kick ass before that...er we'll give him another sword! That's exactly the kind of 'clever' bullshit they try to pull which only makes them deserve a bitch slap. Seriously how does that fool anyone? Simon, I'm looking at you. Please defend this if you dare.


I wouldn't say they were trying to fool anyone, it just seemed to me like they were addressing what some of you claimed was inaccurate.

For me it was never a story ruining issue, Duncan was ranting drunk when he was going on about blooding his sword on Grumman in Dune, drunk people say weird, often incoherent things. I would have bought that in the expanded timeline he was slurring a bit in DUNE when he was referring to Grumman/s.

I'm sure had Frank written these parts of the story he'd have done it differently, I mean clearly BH and KJA have gone their own way in the Duniverse, for better or worse. So in the end.... (everybody!)..
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Postby SandChigger » 28 Sep 2008 03:03

Ah, yes, the vapid little whimper that leads DOWNward into stagnation.

Be proud: Mediocre is the new chic. :roll:
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