Defense of the New Books

    Abandon all sanity ye who enter here

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Postby SandChigger » 01 Dec 2008 04:43

Hmmm. That's interesting, Lundse.

So we could maybe put together and publish a REAL (not just a purported) "Unofficial/Unapproved Dune Concordance" and the HLP couldn't stop it?

Interesting indeed.


Simon wrote:(I figured it'd allow a discussion which wouldn't end in "That's not my Duniverse!" as is inevitable when I bring some non-FH aspect to the table.)

Actually, dipshit, the point is more correctly that it's not Frank Herbert's Duniverse.
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Postby Lundse » 01 Dec 2008 05:15

SandChigger wrote:Hmmm. That's interesting, Lundse.

So we could maybe put together and publish a REAL (not just a purported) "Unofficial/Unapproved Dune Concordance" and the HLP couldn't stop it?

Interesting indeed.


Don't get me wrong, they would sue!

But if we went to trial with a non-retarded judge and ditto lawyer, we would also win. Copyright holders try to bully end-users to accept more draconian control than the law calls for or even allows - but users are waking up!

We would have to be careful, of course, that the work does not have a similar feel or use, and watch the copy-paste commands, but one is allowed to disseminate knowledge (or, as the music-, film- and book-industry calls it: steal).

Personally, I think we should make a wiki...


SandChigger wrote:
Simon wrote:(I figured it'd allow a discussion which wouldn't end in "That's not my Duniverse!" as is inevitable when I bring some non-FH aspect to the table.)

Actually, dipshit, the point is more correctly that it's not Frank Herbert's Duniverse.


As you know, I agree that it is indeed demonstrable that quite a few aspects of the Abominations are not compatible with Frank's writing. But I have no clue why you need to resort to namecalling.

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Postby loremaster » 01 Dec 2008 07:38

FWIW - I've never had a reason to cross Simon's path and actually quite like having him here.

I've got to say that actually, in many respects, i do agree with him. People here are FAR too quick to reach for name-calling. OR criticise grammar. He isnt submitting a thesis on history of language, he's making a point on the internet.

Lord knows if i was picked up on every english or grammatical error i made on the internet i`d never get anything done.

On the other hand, i have seen Simon try, as best he can, to argue what he thinks/feels time and time again. I cant blame him for getting annoyed and/or giving up.

There also seems to be a zero tolerance policy on this board as regards prequelites - Now dont get me wrong, i disagree with simon and i HATE vehemently what Pinky and the Brian have done to the Duniverse. BUT i'm willing to go as far as to say that (from what i`ve seen of simon, which is by no means everything) he seems to have a sound grasp of many fundamentals. He certainly doesnt seem to be the retard you credit him to be. Based on my understanding, he warrants a "understands a lot, misses certain fundamentals" judgement.

On the other hand, i do expect this post to either a) attract me the same venom simon attracts, following the (seemingly) zero tolerance policy of the board or b) to just get drowned out with more anti-simon raving.

I also think that, as with possibly byron, the more you press every little point about the book discussions, the more simon will argue on principle.

How many of you, without looking back on this thread, can state Simons arguments, and his exact stance on a) The continuation of the series as a whole b)Ominous and Erasmus c)The house books, as opposed to all the others.

Just wondering, as a final thought, what all your blood pressures are?
The HLP hasnt released Frank's notes yet, Brian hasn't got the handwriting quite right!

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Postby Simon » 01 Dec 2008 10:00

Exactly, thanks for summing it up so eloquently Loremaster.

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Postby SandRider » 01 Dec 2008 10:49

loremaster wrote:How many of you, without looking back on this thread, can state Simons arguments, and his exact stance on a) The continuation of the series as a whole b)Ominous and Erasmus c)The house books, as opposed to all the others.


I just woke up and ain't had no coffee nor pain meds, and I'll tell you off the
top of my head Simon accepts the new books as canon - that outrageous
retcons ala Star Wars are just fine with him, because he likes everything.
(standard pretard response as well - if you don't like the new books, don't
read them, don't buy them, nevermind the damage done Frank's legacy)

His primary allegience to the HLP and KJA comes from Merritt "allowing"
him to post his Dune-based comic strip Over There - "Frank's grandson
talked to me ! "


I don't mind the name-calling at all - I came to this board after spending
a few years on civil war & history boards where "civility" was prized above
truth - I've seen good smart people quit when a few clever assholes couched
their insults in "acceptable" terms and those folks couldn't say what they really
felt and weren't clever enough themselves to play those games.

If you defend an undefendable position, and do it poorly, someone's going
to call you a dipshit. Oh well. Sometimes I can't believe I've lived long enough
to see grown men complaining about "cyber-bullying". Simon's not a preteen
girl, nobody's sending text messages in class that his pussy smells funny.

My blood pressure's fine - my spine's all fucked up. Simon and the pretards
aren't the problem - Keith and the HLP are the problem, but they won't come
around to defend themselves - every movement needs a whipping-boy.
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Postby Lundse » 01 Dec 2008 11:43

SandRider wrote:I don't mind the name-calling at all - I came to this board after spending a few years on civil war & history boards where "civility" was prized above truth - I've seen good smart people quit when a few clever assholes couched their insults in "acceptable" terms and those folks couldn't say what they really felt and weren't clever enough themselves to play those games.


Irrelevant. We are not talking about whether you get to state your opinion without couching it in all sorts of vague terms - we are talking about whether it helps anyone that you lash out at person X everytime you get the chance.
The problem is not that Simon is cleverly attacking you and you need to say something back or leave. The problem is that the one fan of the new books who is actualy trying to argue his points is being attacked every time he does so!


SandRider wrote:If you defend an undefendable position, and do it poorly, someone's going to call you a dipshit.


Then that someone is an idiot.

Say you disagree. Take no shit. Argue.

Please do not make us all out to be as vengeful and idiotic that we should need to attack anyone who differs in opinion. That is just plain sad, and should be left for the willingly retarded.


SandRider wrote:Oh well. Sometimes I can't believe I've lived long enough to see grown men complaining about "cyber-bullying". Simon's not a preteen girl, nobody's sending text messages in class that his pussy smells funny.


This is not that kind of bullying at all and noone is saying it is. This is about what kind of _overall tone_ we want at this place, and about how open we are to the idea of open debate (and what the fuck would you be doing at a discussion board if you are not open to that).
It has nothing to do with Simon's feelings - he will be fine. But he will not share his opnions with us (and before you state the childlike 'I do not want his opinions' then keep in mind that some of us do and you should not let your need for shouting get in the way of those of us who want to talk').
Furthermore, if asked by someone entirely new to Dune at DN - Simon will, _in all honesty_ tell them that quite a few OH'ers are completely closed of to any kind of rational dialogue. He will not recommend jacurutu as a place to ask what might be the problem with the new books.
Note that the last one who did, over there, ask about a canon issue, was put to the same treatment you are now giving Simon - I talked to him and he was really nice and interested in hearing my views on the books, and will now read the original six first as per my recommendations.
I wonder what effect this kind of 'I am allowed to call him anything I want because this is the internet and I think he is an idiot'.


SandRider wrote:My blood pressure's fine - my spine's all fucked up. Simon and the pretards aren't the problem - Keith and the HLP are the problem, but they won't come around to defend themselves - every movement needs a whipping-boy.


Any movement which needs a whipping-boy is fucking sad. End of discussion!
Please speak for yourself when spouting such bigoted nonsense.

I would love for Kevin, Brian, Byron and all the other failures to come over here and argue their point.
They won't - and that says more about them than anything you can dream up.
But that Simon does not want to post here says something only about the atmosphere - he is actually willing to debate his points!


Save the hate for the two corpse-raping bastards.
Let's hear all about Byron's moronic exploits as an admin.
By all means, let us poke fun at the preteens who think evil robots are so much cooler than thinking men's SF.
But why do you need to 'have a whipping-boy'? Why throw personal attacks at the person trying to argue his points?

Though I disagree with Simon re. his reading of Dune, and share none of his enthusiasm for pure pulp SF, I prefer his company in a discussion. I think he has kept a very level head through all this and I think quite a few people here are being extremely immature.

Drop the insecurity, you are right and demonstrably so. No reason to lash out.

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Postby Omphalos » 01 Dec 2008 11:46

Lundse wrote:
Simon wrote:
Omphalos wrote:Seeing that should be a treat. I wonder if he as the express written permission of the HLP?


Actually, in a recent ruling re. Rowlings childrens fantasy universe, it was made pretty clear that Simon would probably be allowed to publish such notes!
As long as there is very little verbatim copying and the new work does not sell as the same product which they refer (eg. is an encyclopedia over the Potter-verse and not a re-telling of the story and hence too much like the books themselves)...


I know, and that's the position I have taken all along. But that wont stop the HLP from ruffling its feathers, acting like they are above the law, or its golden boys from toeing the HLP's line.

As for the "civility" debate that is going on now, either you can piece together a cogent argument and support it with facts/text, or you can't. If you can't, then Im of the opinion that there is nothing better to teach you how then a trial by fire. That is how I got my professional education, and it worked out just fine. Those who submit to the education will come out better able to defend their positions, and the entire board gets stronger.

On the other hand, consider this: The fact of the matter is that as long as the debate was allowed on DN, things chugged along just fine. Neither side gained or lost significant numbers over and above the norm for internet fourms, though a few did complain because they felt ganged up on. But then when Kevvie cracked the whip on Byron, things went all to hell then, and a beautiful place was destroyed.

I do not need it spelled out for me any more clearly. Our positions will make the board better. We do our OH thing by arguing for our position, and also by seeking weakness in the countervailing position. That is the two sided nature of debate. One would hope that preeqs would realize that the best thing to do is exactly what Simon is doing: Looking for textual evidence to support his position.

Personally I look forward to him making the ultimate realization that he has been wrong all these years. :P
Last edited by Omphalos on 01 Dec 2008 12:00, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby SandRider » 01 Dec 2008 11:48

Lundse : taken under consideration ....
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Postby Seraphan » 01 Dec 2008 12:36

Personally I look forward to him making the ultimate realization that he has been wrong all these years. Razz


When i came to DN i was actually beleaving in the hacks, i was very naive at that but it was thanks to A Thing of Eternity that i opened my eyes when he placed his review of sandworms. I wasnt lashed at and i came out fine over here.
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Postby GamePlayer » 01 Dec 2008 12:40

Sympathy for Mr. Persecuted? :roll:
Some of you seem to have a very short memory. Simon isn't an angel and he's dished out his share of insults (just look at this thread). I seem to recall him generalizing about everyone here at Jacurutu and dismissing everything we had to say. I also think some of you are being presumptuous. If I were a prequel fan, Simon would not speak for me on this board. I don't care if he's the only one here, he's no champion of the pretards.

As for the name calling, Simon's posts basically charged me as guilty by association despite the fact we never actually crossed paths. Since I'm getting the grief, I might as well enjoy the gravy. Why? Cause fuck him, that's why.

If some want to start over, then do so. Sign the armistice and get back on subject. Otherwise, let's drop the misplaced righteous indignation.
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Postby Frybread » 01 Dec 2008 12:47

Seraphan wrote:
Personally I look forward to him making the ultimate realization that he has been wrong all these years. Razz


When i came to DN i was actually beleaving in the hacks, i was very naive at that but it was thanks to A Thing of Eternity that i opened my eyes when he placed his review of sandworms. I wasnt lashed at and i came out fine over here.


My realization came about on its own.

I had watched Lynch's "Dune" when I was a kid in the mid 1980s, but had never read the books.

Then, when I decided to read the books last year, I started with the Legends series and read all the way through the House series, Frank's six books and then HoD and SoD. At the time, I had thought the Legends series was OK and that the House series was boring but was adequate.

However, it became apparent after I finished SoD that Comb-Over and The Other Guy's books where inferior. And, after more readings, it became apparent that their books were incosistence with FH's vision, IMO.

Normally, I wouldn't care. But Comb-Over's arrogance and his disdain for FH's universe is what has pissed me off and now I HATE any of the new books.

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Postby Lundse » 01 Dec 2008 13:15

GamePlayer wrote:Sympathy for Mr. Persecuted? :roll:


No. I just want the possibility for debate.


GamePlayer wrote:Some of you seem to have a very short memory. Simon isn't an angel and he's dished out his share of insults (just look at this thread). I seem to recall him generalizing about everyone here at Jacurutu and dismissing everything we had to say.


I never said he was, nothing in my statements or argumentation hinge on him being in any way guiltless in all this. The one assumption my argumentation does need is that he is here to argue his point and willing to do so - he is.
(I know he has said some stupid things. He also happens to be rather good at taking them back - this includes stuff like generalizing.)


GamePlayer wrote:I also think some of you are being presumptuous. If I were a prequel fan, Simon would not speak for me on this board. I don't care if he's the only one here, he's no champion of the pretards.

What is it you think I presume?
I never said he is some kind of spokesman, only that he likes the new books and is willing to debate his claims. The ones that do not argue their point have declared themselves irrelevant (that includes you, Mr. Anderson) - Simon has not.


GamePlayer wrote:As for the name calling, Simon's posts basically charged me as guilty by association despite the fact we never actually crossed paths. Since I'm getting the grief, I might as well enjoy the gravy. Why? Cause fuck him, that's why.


'Fuck him' does not convince me, sorry.
On the other hand, I am not advocating turning the other cheek. If someone gives you grief, by all means respond! I am just asking that noone lurk the threads for someone like Simon to stick his head out and then attack him with something completely irrelevant such as spelling mistakes.


GamePlayer wrote:If some want to start over, then do so. Sign the armistice and get back on subject. Otherwise, let's drop the misplaced righteous indignation.


I am saddened, is what I am. We have the moral upper ground here, and people seem to be pissing it away on childish name-calling games.
I am already 'starting over' and all I am asking is that noone attack the guy I am arguing with. Not to ignore any attacks which come your way, not to stay completely out of the discussion and not to hold back anything pertinent. Just to stop being a dick towards the guy for past transgressions and let him argue politely if he wants to argue politely.

(I am not saying this is not what you were doing all along, I have not checked the threads for that. I am responding because you seem to have misunderstood my interpretation of Simon and the situation.)

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Postby Omphalos » 01 Dec 2008 13:58

"Moral upper ground??" Are you kidding me? We certainly do not have the moral upper ground here. I'd say that its even, if we were not such a potty-mouthed bunch. What we have here is the analytical upper ground. Maybe even teh intellectual upper ground, but no way are we morally superior to that bunch.

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Postby Lundse » 01 Dec 2008 14:14

Omphalos wrote:"Moral upper ground??" Are you kidding me? We certainly do not have the moral upper ground here. I'd say that its even, if we were not such a potty-mouthed bunch. What we have here is the analytical upper ground. Maybe even teh intellectual upper ground, but no way are we morally superior to that bunch.


I was factoring in the crime against literature that the new books are... And discounting the discussions I'd say we do have the moral high ground - we are the ones who respect Frank's memory, while they are placated with a few words about notes and the assurances of that money-grubbing son of his.

And while Byron's bannings, Fantamas' personal attacks and Arnoldo's deliberate obfuscations and strawmanning do count against 'them', then I'd say that you are right if we are evaluating the discussions - we're about even.

But supporting a hack writer defecating on Frank's masterpiece does shift the scales, IMHO.

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Postby GamePlayer » 01 Dec 2008 14:39

Spare me lundse. "He's attacked every time he tries to do so" contradicts everything you just shotgun quoted to me. So don't try to sell spin here. As for Simon, I can see he's being such a good boy; a look at his last 20 posts definitely proves his good behaviour. :roll:

Just because Simon replies on point to some of your posts, doesn't dismiss him from acting like a grade-A asshole to everyone else. If he wants respect, let him earn it. So far he's just a passive-aggressive who doesn't care he's being strung along by SC. Besides, if he worked at it a little, Simon he might learn how to cope with others instead of failing his martyr impersonation every time someone calls him a name or criticizes his spelling.
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Postby Omphalos » 01 Dec 2008 15:22

Lundse wrote:I was factoring in the crime against literature that the new books are... And discounting the discussions I'd say we do have the moral high ground - we are the ones who respect Frank's memory, while they are placated with a few words about notes and the assurances of that money-grubbing son of his.


If we were debating Bh and KJA, you may have a point. But were arent. Were debating a bunch of true believers, so the moral ground is equal, save were we or they erode it.

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Postby Lundse » 01 Dec 2008 15:28

Hu? I think I know what you mean by shotgun quoting, but what is it that you think that quote of mine contradicts?

I repeat: I never said Simon was some kind of innocent saint. Only that he does actually try to have a reasonable debate. The 'good behaviour' which I 'require' for him to be worth talking to is the desire to stay on point and remaining sufficiently polite. He is doing that just fine with me.
All I am asking is that people do not pop into a thread, which they have no desire to participate in, and start namecalling him. That's it. Why is that 'spin' or so damn horrible?


As I said - if people want to slug it out with him if and when he acts like an asshole, that is their choice (just don't interupt other peoples conversations with it). But turning around when he gives some back and putting all the blame on him for the state of eg. this thread is just hypocritical...

Simon is not playing martyr here. He is, as you say, being passive-aggresive about it - calling the shit as he defends himself, and giving a bit back in a more civilised tone (no doubt to annoy more than to help along discussion).
I can understand that; in fact, I might do the same...


Notice the pattern here: he responds fine to me, and acts like an asshole (your claim) to those who attack him. The question is: do we want him here as a discussion partner, or another asshole?
I vote for the former.

PS: No, that does not mean everyone has to turn the other cheek, it simply means not aggrevating him when he is engaged in discussion with others.

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Postby Serkanner » 01 Dec 2008 15:45

Who is this Simon guy everybody keeps talking about?
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Postby Seraphan » 01 Dec 2008 16:11

he does actually try to have a reasonable debate

Not always, truth be told. He sometimes falls innevitably into that passive-agressive way reminiscent of Byron.
All in all i dont mind talking with Simon, i'm not saying this out of some ridiculous idea of being "the better man" but rather pure honesty, even though i didnt like his generalization of everyone. I'm quite possibly talking out of my ass since there are people here with a larger story of him but i simply cant have an opinion of someone from other people's opinions. Also let's all calm down a bit, we're mostly friends here and we are geeting into heated arguments over little since it was Simon that showed interest in getting out of here and treating everyone like jerks, one or two of us maybe but not all for gods sake and that's the main reason (i'm guessing) for the insults towards him. Like i said, i may have talked out of my ass :)
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Postby GamePlayer » 01 Dec 2008 17:02

Oh, I'm definitely noticing a pattern :)
Like I said, if the parties want a dialog, then agree to do so.

"Fuck Simon. Simon's polishing the brass of the Titanic. It's all going down, man! So fuck off, with your message boards and your prequel books. I say never be sorry for yourself. I say stop laying blame. I say let's evolve and let the chips fall where they may.

But that's me, I could be wrong, maybe it's a terrible tragedy
"

:P :lol:
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Postby Seraphan » 01 Dec 2008 17:25

Yup, guilty of changing opinions but i thought things over. He acted like a jerk, but i like the guy. I rant like an idiot also so please bear with it, pretty please XD
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Postby SandChigger » 01 Dec 2008 17:51

Well, you just go right on ahead and rant like an idiot all you want. ;)

Me, I'm content just to be one: Simon's a dipshit who can draw but can't spell worth shit. I take potshots at him 'cause I'm bored; he's of no importance otherwise. And certainly not worth arguing over.

If he manages—after this careful, annotating reading—to come up with anything more interesting than "It's all relative, it's all just a matter of personal taste", let me know, OK? :roll:
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Postby SandRider » 01 Dec 2008 19:56

I'm not interested in discussing the content of the new books at all.

I'm interested in documenting the abuses of the HLP, the "writing"
methodology of Keith J. Hackerson, and, since Brian & Merritt keep
bringing it up as their justification, the exact nature of their relationship
with Frank. I'm interested in the way the Amazon review page is being
manipulated to boost sales of these books, and what can be done to
counter that. I'm interested in the eventual release of all of Frank's
papers.

Lundse wrote:Any movement which needs a whipping-boy is fucking sad. End of discussion!


whipping-boys and scapegoats are common elements of all political movements.
make no mistake, this is a political activity you are engaged in, albeit in the realm
of American Literature. Same rules apply.

I've never interrupted a "discussion" of the new books on this board.
I donot give a damn about the new books. I had a good time with
Simon in his "Wanna play X-box" thread, and I enjoy taunting him.
As I said from the beginning of my interaction with him, maybe this
experiance will toughen him up abit. Maybe he'll end up like Omar &
Tyrant and have a Road to Damascus epiphany. Unless he knows
what's on those floppies, I don't give a damn.
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Postby TheDukester » 01 Dec 2008 20:06

SandRider wrote:I'm not interested in discussing the content of the new books at all.

I'll second that emotion.

I couldn't possibly care less what's between the covers, beyond the fact that everything those two idiots write is an insult to Frank Herbert and further disgraces a literary treasure.

If I need to discuss fanfic, there's only about 10,000 places on the internet where I can do so without having to buy a $20 hardcover.
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Postby Rakis » 01 Dec 2008 23:45

TheDukester wrote:
SandRider wrote:I'm not interested in discussing the content of the new books at all.

I'll second that emotion.

I couldn't possibly care less what's between the covers, beyond the fact that everything those two idiots write is an insult to Frank Herbert and further disgraces a literary treasure.

If I need to discuss fanfic, there's only about 10,000 places on the internet where I can do so without having to buy a $20 hardcover.


I prefer to give Chanilover 20 bucks for a Fanfic... :)

As for Simon, after the incident with Chanilover and the "deleting my review of PoD", even tough he said he was sorry both times, he just lost all credibility for me, whatever he says now, i'll keep expecting another Board drama from him, like what's happening right now...

One Hypathia is enough...
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