Paul of Dune: Self-Referential Wank

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Paul of Dune: Self-Referential Wank

Postby SandChigger » 24 Oct 2008 19:49

Maybe Ampoliros or someone else has mentioned this already, but I'd missed it until now.

Epigraph for "Chapter" 87 (VII.4), p. 449:

Arrakis: Men saw great danger there, and great opportunity.
—the PRINCESS IRULAN, entry in Paul of Dune

OK...so does that mean that the entirety of PoD itself is an in-universe text, or that there just happens to be a book by the same title in the Duniverse and written by Irulan?

I'm certain that they did this intentionally and that they're going to use this ambiguity to get out of any inconsistencies-related criticism of the book by blaming it on Irulan.

It's bad enough when they blame us for not liking their books. It's cowardly and despicable to blame their own mistakes and changes on a fictional character who can't defend herself.

Neither Kevin nor Brian has a ball between them. I wonder how much the testosterone shots run them a month....
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Re: Paul of Dune: Self-Referential Wank

Postby Tleszer » 24 Oct 2008 20:55

SandChigger wrote:Neither Kevin nor Brian has a ball between them. I wonder how much the testosterone shots run them a month....


Why else do you think they write more Dune novels? Testosterone shots are expensive!
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Postby SandChigger » 24 Oct 2008 21:25

I guess that's what keeps Kevvy so busy then, huh?


(Probably doesn't help that 'Becca keeps getting into his stash. I mean, have you seen the ARMS on that woman?! Dayum. :shock: )
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Postby Sole Man » 24 Oct 2008 21:57

That implies that they have testosterone...they could both be women.

See if that same quote is said by someone else inthe book.

Wait.. Maybe thier both Iruluan! That would give testament to my erailer comment...and prove once more that Frank had Prescience.

Shit for thought...now, shit for toilet...

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Re: Paul of Dune: Self-Referential Wank

Postby TheDukester » 24 Oct 2008 22:10

SandChigger wrote:It's bad enough when they blame us for not liking their books. It's cowardly and despicable to blame their own mistakes and changes on a fictional character who can't defend herself.

Not to mention the sheer lack of shame and enormous ego that it would take to try to insert yourself into Dune "canon" like that.

But that's KJA all over, isn't it? It won't be long now before he is openly claiming to be the most important author in the Dune saga. He's already completed steps one and two of his plan: first, totally dominate the relationship with your fellow "author"; second, control the HLP.

As scary as this is, it's not that big of a stretch for him to begin to downplay Frank Herbert's influence.
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Re: Paul of Dune: Self-Referential Wank

Postby Rakis » 24 Oct 2008 22:59

SandChigger wrote:Maybe Ampoliros or someone else has mentioned this already, but I'd missed it until now.

Epigraph for "Chapter" 87 (VII.4), p. 449:

Arrakis: Men saw great danger there, and great opportunity.
—the PRINCESS IRULAN, entry in Paul of Dune

OK...so does that mean that the entirety of PoD itself is an in-universe text, or that there just happens to be a book by the same title in the Duniverse and written by Irulan?



Then we can expect this one in Irulan of Dune :

I feel like a bad writer, like an ass in the world...
- Princess Irulan, entry in Asses of World


:)
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Re: OnPOD

Postby SandChigger » 24 Oct 2008 23:39

Sole Man wrote:See if that same quote is said by someone else inthe book.

Plan to. I don't recall having seen it, and I don't have it scanned for searching yet, but if it's in there somewhere (as a passing thought by Paul or another character feels likely, don't y'all think?), it would be rather conclusive evidence for them trying to pass the whole book off as by Irulan.

Hacks with no balls...could that be a band name?
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Postby SandRider » 25 Oct 2008 00:03

There's The Sackless Balls out of Austin .....

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Postby Omphalos » 25 Oct 2008 00:55

They are trying to get some scholarly props with that kind of jive-ass move.

http://www.nesfa.org/Recursion/

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Postby SandChigger » 25 Oct 2008 02:34

I seriously doubt that is the motivation.

Kevin doesn't care for elitist academics, remember. ;)
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Postby Freakzilla » 25 Oct 2008 07:01

I find this extremely disturbing, I should smoke two joints before I think about it.

:smoke: :smoke:

We have gone beyond alternate or extended Dune and have entered...

Bizaro Dune.
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Postby Omphalos » 25 Oct 2008 11:47

SandChigger wrote:I seriously doubt that is the motivation.

Kevin doesn't care for elitist academics, remember. ;)


Are you kidding me? With all the PhD's he uses to check his work? He's all about academia. :wink:

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Postby Laphtiya » 25 Oct 2008 15:03

Thats just pathetic, I can seriously believe that they did this to cover their own mistakes. They'll probaby do this with Leto, saying that everything we read was his own diaries and spin on events so we can't pick at the mistakes. However if this is true, it means that we are right and they know it :lol:

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Postby Frybread » 25 Oct 2008 19:12

Laphtiya wrote:Thats just pathetic, I can seriously believe that they did this to cover their own mistakes. They'll probaby do this with Leto, saying that everything we read was his own diaries and spin on events so we can't pick at the mistakes. However if this is true, it means that we are right and they know it :lol:


Leto II was an idiot, don't you know? According to KJA/BH, the God Emperor was an incompetent moron who thought the Golden Path would actually succeed. So, of course Leto II's diaries can't be trusted.

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Postby SandChigger » 25 Oct 2008 19:13

If they manage to extend this in some way to cover Frank's books as well, then there's no longer any point of discussing anything about the books, because you could never again "prove" anything by referring to any of the texts. Everything would be someone's potentially erroneous point of view.

It's brilliant in its evil. And you know Kevin would have no qualms about doing it. It would forever free him from having to do ANY research (not that it looks like he does much to begin with) and allow him to be as "creative" as he wants. :evil:
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Postby Laphtiya » 25 Oct 2008 19:23

SandChigger wrote:If they manage to extend this in some way to cover Frank's books as well, then there's no longer any point of discussing anything about the books, because you could never again "prove" anything by referring to any of the texts. Everything would be someone's potentially erroneous point of view.

It's brilliant in its evil. And you know Kevin would have no qualms about doing it. It would forever free him from having to do ANY research (not that it looks like he does much to begin with) and allow him to be as "creative" as he wants. :evil:


Of course you could prove it. It's simple, FH created this universe so he essentiall is its GOD. And no one man can go against the word of God! These are just pretenders, over zellous fan fiction writers who have deluded themselves into thinking they are doing good. If they create new myth to over shadow the old it is still pointless because without the original there new myth could not exits, thus proving the superiority of the original. As I said before Frank Herbert is the GOD of the Dune universe, these two are nothing but simple men trying to manipulate us in his name, and it cannot work and will not work on me.

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Postby SandChigger » 25 Oct 2008 19:29

I know that and you know that, of course. ;)

I was thinking of when you're discussing the books with fans of the Nu. You wouldn't be able to have any discussion at all with an idiot like arnoldo around (not that you'd want to, anyway) because you know he'd pull out the "all texts are in-universe" line every time you backed him into a corner.

There really would no longer be any common ground for discussion between the two factions of fans. ... And maybe that's what they want.
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Postby Frybread » 25 Oct 2008 19:37

SandChigger wrote:I know that and you know that, of course. ;)

I was thinking of when you're discussing the books with fans of the Nu. You wouldn't be able to have any discussion at all with an idiot like arnoldo around (not that you'd want to, anyway) because you know he'd pull out the "all texts are in-universe" line every time you backed him into a corner.

There really would no longer be any common ground for discussion between the two factions of fans. ... And maybe that's what they want.


And like you mentioned before, considering all of the books as being "in-universe texts" is perfect for a hack like KJA who routinely makes mistakes with consistency.

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Postby SandChigger » 25 Oct 2008 20:19

I wonder if the idea came to him while he was writing his Saga of Seven Suns books. There's a epic tale of the Ildiran aliens by the same name in those books. I've only skimmed parts of the first book so I don't know if KJA actually does the full version of this "crawling up its own bumhole" recursion trick with that series, but I do remember that several of the Ildiran characters are mindful of their place and how they will be portrayed in the Saga, which is an ongoing tale/history.

All very Arabian Nights, no? :roll:
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Postby Hunchback Jack » 25 Oct 2008 21:57

King did this with his Dark Tower novels, to some extent. King began making references to the Dark Tower in other novels, but didn't tie up all these threads in the last three DT-proper novels.

He finessed it by having those non-series book be written by a Stephen King character who appeared in the last DT books. So the DT events in those non-series books didn't happen in the DT universe; they were written by King as fiction in the DT universe.

I didn't buy it then, either.

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Postby Sole Man » 25 Oct 2008 22:28

I like the concept of havingrefrences to a main body of work within other, seemingly unrelated works.

Alas, it is just the concept I like, not the physical and actual representation of it.

Hurm...Got to go do that with SOLE MAN now...

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Postby SandChigger » 25 Oct 2008 23:35

I used to enjoy looking for the references to other works in Stephen King's early stuff. But then when I was reading The Tommyknockers, which I already wasn't enjoying and really saw no point in, one of the characters saw the clown from It waving from down inside a storm sewer, and that kinda did it for me.

(I actually found that book offensive on several different levels and it was the last King I read for almost a decade.)
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Postby TheDukester » 25 Oct 2008 23:50

Hunchback Jack wrote:King did this with his Dark Tower novels, to some extent. King began making references to the Dark Tower in other novels, but didn't tie up all these threads in the last three DT-proper novels.

King officially crawled right up his own asshole the minute the "Stephen King" character appeared in ... whichever one it was ... man, I can't even remember, not that it really matters.

And the end to the whole DT saga was just jaw-dropping in its awfulness. Plus, I've never seen anything like King's blatant double-middle-finger right at his own fans. I took the next couple of books off, and I was a big fan Back In The Day ... I was that guy you knew who actually took a half-day off from work to buy the hardbacks the day they appeared.

Fucking authors ... :roll:
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Postby orald » 26 Oct 2008 02:27

Hey, at least the hacks deliever on time(or even before?), I have to wait God knows how many years until GRRM finishes just ADwD, and then he's got 2 more books to end the series...another decade I suppose, at best. :(
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Postby Mandy » 26 Oct 2008 13:42

I don't mind King doing it to his own universe... it's his!