Kevin J. Anderson: maturity level of a 9-year-old girl

[SandChigger]

The really sad thing is, I believe the first person to use it was one of us. (I won't say who, but you know who you are. )

So, Simon, you really think Kevin is aware of all my "verbal assaults" against him? (Don't forget the graphical/pictorial ones now!)

He never responds directly, and I've never seen anything in my server logs to make me think he looks at my site (not that I spend any time looking for him, mind you), so unless you or some other suck-up is reporting back to him, I seriously doubt he has any idea of what I say about him at all.

But your suggestion that he might was nice.


But enough of the talent-free Hack, Simon; please answer this: What do YOU think of what he's doing now? Is it cool and brilliant to reduce Frank's books to non-canon propaganda by Irulan or some other in-universe character? You down and cool with that? Because that is EXACTLY what he is doing.

[Ghost]

Some of the epigraphs are bad for propaganda.

Stupid Irulan or stupid the fool who doesnt have somoene who checks the propaganda. (epigraphs)

[SandChigger]

Yeah, Irulan with her BG training is savvy enough to recognize when Korba decorates his robes with arcane Muadru symbols but doesn't know enough to consult more than one source when compiling an authoritative biography?

And for fuck's sake, Shaddam himself had gone to Grumman and interfered in the War of Assassins, rendered judgement on House Moritani/Tampon and divided up their holdings among Houses Ecaz, Atreides and Vernius a mere seven years before. Paul was 12, so Irulan was alive as well. Seems a retainer or someone might have mentioned that Duke Leto's son was there with his father. And didn't these people keep records worth shit? (Guess they all got burned up in the Jihad attack on Kaitain, huh?)

Not only is Kevin making Irulan into the chump culprit (for now), he's also making her out to be a complete dumbass.

Fuck 'im.

[Ghost]

I was reading Dune yesterday (spanish version) and found this, first chapter of ''Prophet book'' (roughly translated the epigraph)

''...he (Fenring) didn't wanted to kill a man (Paul) although it was within his capabilities..''

Jeez, that epigraph is also propaganda?!
Why Irulan would write that about Paul?
Isn't Paul a religious figure identical to a messiah, god and more, a mere man could kill him?
Why Korba allowed that!

[Lisan Al-Gaib]

I was reading Dune yesterday (spanish version) and found this, first chapter of ''Prophet book'' (roughly translated the epigraph)

''...he (Fenring) didn't wanted to kill a man (Paul) although it was within his capabilities..''

Jeez, that epigraph is also propaganda?!
Why Irulan would write that about Paul?
Isn't Paul a religious figure identical to a messiah, god and more, a mere man could kill him?
Why Korba allowed that!

It's mysterious the way Irulan writes.

As we know, only KJA have the answer for that. And we already know he have it, he's always right.

[TheDukester]

And we already know he have it, he's always right.

Not only is he "always right" (annoying personality trait), he's also allowed to operate in a vacuum. There's no editorial control from anyone at the HLP or at TOR/McMillan.

He hikes it out; it gets published verbatim.

[Hunchback Jack]

However, I don't think he crossed that line here. He didn't curse, call names, or insult anyone (and I don't mean OHers taking it as an insult, because let's face it, if KJA breaths it insults you gents). He stated a fact.

Er, sorry, Simon, I have to disagree with you here. KJA's original sentence:

"Rest assured, though, that Brian and I will keep writing the novels, and keep writing them, for as long as it takes until you are completely satisfied. You give us the incentive to keep the series going for many years to come."

... comes across as sarcastic, snide and unprofessional. Particularly in light of the condescending tone with which he answered Chig's original post. He wasn't just "stating facts".

HBJ

[Hunchback Jack]

It's mysterious the way Irulan writes.

Right. Hey on that topic, I was trying to understand who wrote what in the noDune authors' minds.

Dune - in-universe book by Irulan
PoD - omniscient? In-universe? Doesn't it actually quote *itself*?
JoD - same author as PoD, presumably. But if PoD is in-universe, then JoD could 'undo' some of the events in PoD.
DM - Irulan again, presumably.
IoD - same author as PoD/JoD?
CoD - Itulan again, presumably. Was she dead by this time?


... and so on. So either, *all* the books are inuniverse, in which case all naration is unreliable, or only the FH books are inuniverse, in which case the chronological sequence of boks jumps in and out of in-universe narrative, each FH novel being "corrected/reinterpreted/whatever" by each subsequent noDune novel.

God. Help. Us. All.

What a royal mess these guys are making of the Dune universe, all for the sake of either covering their asses, or introducing a "way-cool" idea that they cleary haven't thought through.

HBJ

[TheDukester]

What a royal mess these guys are making of the Dune universe ...

Not my Dune universe.

There's only six books in mine ... plus a fun (if somewhat nebulous) encyclopedia.

Everything else is just fanfic.

[Hunchback Jack]

Granted. I agree.

Just pointing out that the noDune books may not make any sense even within this supposed metafiction framework the hacks are introducing.

HBJ

[TheDukester]

Just pointing out that the noDune books may not make any sense even within this supposed metafiction framework the hacks are introducing.

Definitely; you nailed it.

It's inevitable that everything Hacky and The Sidekick write will eventually disappear right up its own asshole. By the time those two geniuses are done with three more Heroes books, plus however many Great Schools books (three?), plus whatever else — all the while trying to retcon their own ineptitude and make a passing attempt to get things to line up with FH's canon — it will be like watching two 6-year-olds trying to put together a difficult puzzle.

[SandChigger]

Well, Brian will definitely be droolin' and poopin up his adult Pampers by that time.

Think me terrible if you will, but the best we can hope for now is that Brian lives no longer than his father and the HLP haven't been stupid or greedy enough to sign a contract allowing Kevin to continue even if something happens to Brian.


As for Hunchback Jack's question above, I'm tellin' y'all it'll be Harq al-Ada writes LoD (and maybe IoD) and Gaus Andaud who writes GEoD, HoD, and CHD.

[Hunchback Jack]

Meh.

Incidentally, in that email exchange you had with KJA a couple of days ago, I can't believe he quoted PoD at you. I couldn't believe the quote itself, either; not only does it bring up the whole "Irulan Solution", it mentions the Paul-born-on-Kaitan thing.

I just shook my head in amazement; it's so unbelievably transparent.

HBJ

[Freakzilla]

Seriously, how can you have a civilized discussion with someone who makes up the rules as they go?

Its like playing a game with a 5-year-old.

[ibanez_az]

What a royal mess these guys are making of the Dune universe ...

Not my Dune universe.

There's only six books in mine ... plus a fun (if somewhat nebulous) encyclopedia.

Everything else is just fanfic.

What the Dukester said....

[Simon]

The really sad thing is, I believe the first person to use it was one of us. (I won't say who, but you know who you are. )

So, Simon, you really think Kevin is aware of all my "verbal assaults" against him? (Don't forget the graphical/pictorial ones now!)

He never responds directly, and I've never seen anything in my server logs to make me think he looks at my site (not that I spend any time looking for him, mind you), so unless you or some other suck-up is reporting back to him, I seriously doubt he has any idea of what I say about him at all.

But your suggestion that he might was nice.


But enough of the talent-free Hack, Simon; please answer this: What do YOU think of what he's doing now? Is it cool and brilliant to reduce Frank's books to non-canon propaganda by Irulan or some other in-universe character? You down and cool with that? Because that is EXACTLY what he is doing.

My opinion is bias on this one but I see them trying to make a nitch for themselves in the Duniverse. As an artist I applaud that. They had two roads to chose from, the safe road would have been apeing FH's style and not adding anything to the Duniverse he didn't devise himself. Which would probably been at least as successful, financially speaking. Then you have the road they took, trying to make their own place. Their success in that is debatable, and regardless of various fan stances we all agree (even BH and KJA I'd bet) that Frank can't be matched.

I know that the HLP's treatment of Dune isn't the loveless money grubbing thing some try to make it out to be. They simply chose their path and are sticking to their guns, for better or worse. Some people like it others don't, time and fans will tell. Which is one of my main motivators for coming online again and again to repeat my stance over and over. I figure my voice is as important as yours and intend on banging the pro-nuDune drum as long as the detractors insist on banging theirs. I'm just a spoke on the wheel, trying to do my part and hoping it makes a difference.

[Omphalos]

Oh bullshit, Simon. Those two took the "safe road" which for them was ignoring the t hings that they obviously could not understand. Cant you see how out of place they would have felt actually trying to stick to the books? It would have been completely out of their safety zones, and they would have felt like idiots trying to discuss the books with the likes of us. Instead they put up a "I cant hear you" wall around themselves and did whatever the hell they wanted. That's the simple choice.

[TheDukester]

Then you have the road they took, trying to make their own place.

I'll give you credit, Simon: you're taking a stance and defending it, and I think you're making an effort to put less "OH = stupid" smarminess in your posts, which is appreciated.

Now to the part where you're misguided.

The "road" taken by Clown 1 and Clown 2 was actually the safest, lamest, and vilest decision they could have made. They've taken a beloved fictional universe with an established, cohesive, and fairly comprehensive history, and they've simply tossed it all out the window. And now they're openly admitting it! Irulan, indeed ... I've never heard of anything so blatantly foolish.

And why? Because they couldn't handle the challenge. They don't have the skill or the basic desire to try to add to Frank Herbert's universe while still respecting established canon.

They couldn't do it because they are hacks. And your hero KJA refused to even try, because having to do some basic research would prevent him from hiking out a new McDune Dune in less than a month.

Yeah, that's some "road" they chose there.

[Simon]

Oh bullshit, Simon. Those two took the "safe road" which for them was ignoring the t hings that they obviously could not understand. Cant you see how out of place they would have felt actually trying to stick to the books? It would have been completely out of their safety zones, and they would have felt like idiots trying to discuss the books with the likes of us. Instead they put up a "I cant hear you" wall around themselves and did whatever the hell they wanted. That's the simple choice.

As I said, their success is debatable. I think they did pretty well everything said and done, and you think it's an unholy travesty. I won't say your wrong, you've read the books, formed an opinion. Those who share it have their own reasons and you have all outlined them thoroughly. Me, I just hope your wrong. I hope that the people I met at that book signing represent the majority of Dune fans and that you guys are the vocal minority I've counted you as. I actually had a friend pick up a nuDune novel (totally unprovoked, I pushed nothing in this instance) and he couldn't stand it, said things I've heard some of you say. It wasn't his style or something (and this is the same friend who introduced me to Terry Goodkind, so it's not like we'd want to label him a literary sort! ).

So who knows? I guess the struggle continues! You bang your drum, I'll bang mine. I'm actually hunkering down right now to do my first serious break down of the books since my joining the online community. I'm going to take careful notes as I read so I can attempt a more compelling and comprehensive rebutle in my defense of the new books. I feel like if I'm going to keep coming here and arguing for the new stuff I'd like to offer you guys something better defense-wise than "because I like them!"

[Frybread]

Then you have the road they took, trying to make their own place.

I'll give you credit, Simon: you're taking a stance and defending it, and I think you're making an effort to put less "OH = stupid" smarminess in your posts, which is appreciated.

Now to the part where you're misguided.

The "road" taken by Clown 1 and Clown 2 was actually the safest, lamest, and vilest decision they could have made. They've taken a beloved fictional universe with an established, cohesive, and fairly comprehensive history, and they've simply tossed it all out the window. And now they're openly admitting it! Irulan, indeed ... I've never heard of anything so blatantly foolish.

And why? Because they couldn't handle the challenge. They don't have the skill or the basic desire to try to add to Frank Herbert's universe while still respecting established canon.

They couldn't do it because they are hacks. And your hero KJA refused to even try, because having to do some basic research would prevent him from hiking out a new McDune Dune in less than a month.

Yeah, that's some "road" they chose there.

KJA and That Other Guy took the easy way out by saying that FH's work was in-universe and, because much of it was written by Irulan, it is inconsistent so they can be inconsistent in their new crap-I mean, books.

[Simon]

Then you have the road they took, trying to make their own place.

I'll give you credit, Simon: you're taking a stance and defending it, and I think you're making an effort to put less "OH = stupid" smarminess in your posts, which is appreciated.

Now to the part where you're misguided.

The "road" taken by Clown 1 and Clown 2 was actually the safest, lamest, and vilest decision they could have made. They've taken a beloved fictional universe with an established, cohesive, and fairly comprehensive history, and they've simply tossed it all out the window. And now they're openly admitting it! Irulan, indeed ... I've never heard of anything so blatantly foolish.

And why? Because they couldn't handle the challenge. They don't have the skill or the basic desire to try to add to Frank Herbert's universe while still respecting established canon.

They couldn't do it because they are hacks. And your hero KJA refused to even try, because having to do some basic research would prevent him from hiking out a new McDune Dune in less than a month.

Yeah, that's some "road" they chose there.

KJA and That Other Guy took the easy way out by saying that FH's work was in-universe and, because much of it was written by Irulan, it is inconsistent so they can be inconsistent in their new crap-I mean, books.

I can accept that certain characters with in the universe had been raised on propaganda history. Though to claim that the original six are in-universe documents like the DE is a bit silly. Where did they say that?
(link please sir) If this is so, then meh, I'll just disregard that. FH is unmutable canon. People can say otherwise but that don't make it so.

[TheDukester]

The recent Chigger-KJA summit meeting is a great place to start:

http://chiggerblog.hairyticksofdune.net/blog/?p=241

[SandRider]

So who knows? I guess the struggle continues! You bang your drum, I'll bang mine. I'm actually hunkering down right now to do my first serious break down of the books since my joining the online community. I'm going to take careful notes as I read so I can attempt a more compelling and comprehensive rebutle in my defense of the new books. I feel like if I'm going to keep coming here and arguing for the new stuff I'd like to offer you guys something better defense-wise than "because I like them!"

I'd listen to you more if you did. Won't agree, and will continue to say
"What new Dune books ? Ohhhh, the Star Wars crap", but I'll listen,
and try not to call you a fucktard too often.

And know you'll always have a place here as my favorite whipping-boy.
Stand up for whatever it is you believe in, even you're dead wrong.
That's what makes America great.

(speaking of whipping-boys, I've been trying to get Muadib56 to come
on over - no response whatsoever. Give you a dollar if you can talk
him into it.)

[Lisan Al-Gaib]

Then you have the road they took, trying to make their own place.

I'll give you credit, Simon: you're taking a stance and defending it, and I think you're making an effort to put less "OH = stupid" smarminess in your posts, which is appreciated.

Now to the part where you're misguided.

The "road" taken by Clown 1 and Clown 2 was actually the safest, lamest, and vilest decision they could have made. They've taken a beloved fictional universe with an established, cohesive, and fairly comprehensive history, and they've simply tossed it all out the window. And now they're openly admitting it! Irulan, indeed ... I've never heard of anything so blatantly foolish.

And why? Because they couldn't handle the challenge. They don't have the skill or the basic desire to try to add to Frank Herbert's universe while still respecting established canon.

They couldn't do it because they are hacks. And your hero KJA refused to even try, because having to do some basic research would prevent him from hiking out a new McDune Dune in less than a month.

Yeah, that's some "road" they chose there.

KJA and That Other Guy took the easy way out by saying that FH's work was in-universe and, because much of it was written by Irulan, it is inconsistent so they can be inconsistent in their new crap-I mean, books.

I can accept that certain characters with in the universe had been raised on propaganda history. Though to claim that the original six are in-universe documents like the DE is a bit silly. Where did they say that?
(link please sir) If this is so, then meh, I'll just disregard that. FH is unmutable canon. People can say otherwise but that don't make it so.

Simon,

Kevin said that at a e-mail to Sandchigger:

http://www.jacurutu.com/viewtopic.php?t ... &start=270

http://chiggerblog.hairyticksofdune.net/blog/?p=241

What you have to say? I would like to know what Byron think about that too... I'm a fan of peoples reaction.

[Simon]

[I'm actually hunkering down right now to do my first serious break down of the books since my joining the online community. I'm going to take careful notes as I read so I can attempt a more compelling and comprehensive rebutle in my defense of the new books.

do us and yourself a favour and do an intensive breakdown of the original series as well. include style, nuance, themes, characterization, plot elements etc.

then compare those notes from Dune and Nudune and we'll see if you still feel you should be defending them.

I guarantee you, any true fan of science fiction and real literature would not be able to defend them if they seriously compared these two very different series.

That was actually part of the plan. I want to keep two sets of notes, one acknowledging the threads as they play in all 15 published series books and the second set strictly confined to the FH novels and the ideas contained within those classics.