The Encyclopedia and the prequels, together at last....

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The Encyclopedia and the prequels, together at last....

Postby EsperandoAGodot » 09 Nov 2008 00:19

I've decided to post this here, since it was met with a pretty shitty respons on the dunenovels forums.
The Dune Encyclopedia is an In Universe document, and the limitations of the authors knowledge are often baldly apparent. In fact, the entire introduction just comes right out and says that a lot of this info may be inaccurate.

The concept of this thread will be to go through the DE, viewing it as an in universe document as flawed and limited as any real-world document, and attempt to reconcile it with the works of Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson. Synchronicity, inclusiveness, and retcons will abound. Have fun!

Most of the time, I post on Star Wars forums, so I'm used to crappy continuity and retcons. Do you think we can make this work? I figured this board would be more used to randomness and futile retcon making. Let's see what we can do to make the DE square with the BH and KJA novels? It doesn't need to be water tight...since the DE has been declared noncanon, it's just for fun/peace of mind, anyway...[/quote]

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Postby Omphalos » 09 Nov 2008 02:15

You mean go though and find where they stole shit, then claimed it was their idea? Dude, that is kinda what we are all about.

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Postby SandChigger » 09 Nov 2008 03:09

The main thrust of "Dune" works written by Kevin (and the other guy) is now that Frank Herbert's works were in-universe documents and also flawed and unreliable.

I think you will find that the opinion of most people here is that the "new Dune" works share two very important characteristics with The Dune Encyclopedia: both are fan fiction and neither are canon.

If I had to choose between the two, I would choose the Encyclopedia. It is better written and while the "new Dune" works are purportedly based on notes and outlines by FH, the editor and writers of the Encyclopedia at least had some direct input from Frank Herbert while he lived. Brian Herbert claims that he and his father discussed the latter's Dune books, but we have only his word for it and a near dozen of new books that by their very content and approach would seem to make a liar of him.

I find some ideas in the Encyclopedia interesting (I cannot say the same of the other books), like the idea of the Sayyadinas restoring the Arabic language of the Fremen once they achieved access to Other Memory, but I do not personally accept anything in the Encyclopedia as canon or base any of my own interpretations on it. And I certainly see no need to "reconcile" it with the newer books.


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Postby EsperandoAGodot » 09 Nov 2008 08:20

Well the idea of reconciling it comes from the determination the Herbert estate has to squash the Encyclopedia, and the fact that many fans - myself included - seem to very much like the document and, in fact, prefer it.

As I stated in the other forum, my desire to syncretize as much Dune work as possible may come from my Star Wars fandom, where we're always retconning and doing mental gymnastics.
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Postby SandChigger » 09 Nov 2008 08:51

It's rather time to squash the HLP, actually. ;)
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this is as nice & polite as I get ......

Postby SandRider » 09 Nov 2008 08:59

BobaGodot wrote:my desire to syncretize as much Dune work as possible may come from my Star Wars fandom, where we're always retconning and doing mental gymnastics.


Okay, I almost see your point. I'd call it mental masturbation instead of gymnastics, tho (gymnastics require skill). For one thing, I'd have to actually read Kevin's horseshit, so I'm out right there. You have fun, tho.

Also, and I might as well point this out right now, Star Wars is teeny-bopper, mass-produced, comic book trash. All of it. Frank Herbert's Dune is a Masterpiece of American Literature.

That Kevin and Frank's Spawn have turned the name of Dune into Star Wars is what I'm pissed about. (A long, long time ago, on a Desert Planet far, far away ..... )
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Re: this is as nice & polite as I get ......

Postby EsperandoAGodot » 09 Nov 2008 09:29

SandRider wrote:
BobaGodot wrote:my desire to syncretize as much Dune work as possible may come from my Star Wars fandom, where we're always retconning and doing mental gymnastics.


Okay, I almost see your point. I'd call it mental masturbation instead of gymnastics, tho (gymnastics require skill). For one thing, I'd have to actually read Kevin's horseshit, so I'm out right there. You have fun, tho.

Isn't posting in a forum devoted to any fandom mental masturbation to begin with?
SandRider wrote:Also, and I might as well point this out right now, Star Wars is teeny-bopper, mass-produced, comic book trash. All of it. Frank Herbert's Dune is a Masterpiece of American Literature.

A masterpiece that's now being crapped on and having that crap being called canon. The problem we're faced with, then, is rejecting what we're officially being asked to accept, and so while it doesn't work nicely together perhaps we, as the people who know the books better than anyone else, can try to make it work.

Mental masturbation? Absolutely. But so is figuring out the difference between a ghola in DM and a ghola in GEoD.

But Hell, if no one's interested in playing this game, I'm cool with that, too.
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Re: this is as nice & polite as I get ......

Postby DuneFishUK » 09 Nov 2008 09:41

EsperandoAGodot wrote:A masterpiece that's now being crapped on and having that crap being called canon. The problem we're faced with, then, is rejecting what we're officially being asked to accept, and so while it doesn't work nicely together perhaps we, as the people who know the books better than anyone else, can try to make it work.

Mental masturbation? Absolutely. But so is figuring out the difference between a ghola in DM and a ghola in GEoD.

But Hell, if no one's interested in playing this game, I'm cool with that, too.


The new books contradict the originals on numerous levels and in more numerous specific examples. If this was the Star Wars universe the original films would win - Due to the flexible canonicity of the Expanded Universe. You might enjoy to fanwank a bridge, but the film has to win surely?

In the case of Dune, the new books don't care about that. They are correct and the originals are wrong because the originals are the "Expanded Universe" and are not canon. You can't bridge that. We know that FH wrote what FH meant and it wasn't all a red herring, but the only way to silence KJA is to agree with what KJA says. How does that work? You can't debate it, or reconcile it, or bridge it.

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Postby SandRider » 09 Nov 2008 09:42

I'm sure someone is interested. This is a Free Forum, you do what you want. I just said, I'm not interested, because it would require me to
read the noDune books, which is against my religion.
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Postby DuneFishUK » 09 Nov 2008 09:46

It would be more interesting to reconcile the originals with the DE - maybe even work out if one of the contributors was actually FH himself (which has been suggested but never proven)

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Postby SandRider » 09 Nov 2008 09:51

Now you're talking .... :D

BobaGodot wrote: the difference between a ghola in DM and a ghola in GEoD.


about 15 years of thinking about it, versus "writing" a book by spouting
out whatever comes off the top of your pointed little head while hiking
and planning how to capitalize on the merchandising deals (and changing
diapers ....)
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Re: The Encyclopedia and the prequels, together at last....

Postby Lundse » 09 Nov 2008 10:06

EsperandoAGodot wrote:I've decided to post this here, since it was met with a pretty shitty respons on the dunenovels forums.
The Dune Encyclopedia is an In Universe document, and the limitations of the authors knowledge are often baldly apparent. In fact, the entire introduction just comes right out and says that a lot of this info may be inaccurate.

The concept of this thread will be to go through the DE, viewing it as an in universe document as flawed and limited as any real-world document, and attempt to reconcile it with the works of Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson. Synchronicity, inclusiveness, and retcons will abound. Have fun!

Most of the time, I post on Star Wars forums, so I'm used to crappy continuity and retcons. Do you think we can make this work? I figured this board would be more used to randomness and futile retcon making. Let's see what we can do to make the DE square with the BH and KJA novels? It doesn't need to be water tight...since the DE has been declared noncanon, it's just for fun/peace of mind, anyway...
[/quote]

One could retcon it all to fit KJA's version. I have no idea why one would want to....

Retcons are fantastically easy, you just decide which version is right and come up with the best explanation for why the wrong version is accepted/was reported wrong/whatever. I run roleplaying games, I do this all the time!

Retconning the DE to fit Frank's writing would be interesting, because he approved of it as an 'in-universe' document - the explanations would be another layer of possible additions to the universe, a sort of fan-fic.

But the KJA version is so incredibly non-consistent with the originals (not to mentioned shitty on it's own merits) that such an attempt is completely uninteresting:
Either we say Frank version is right, and try to fit in as much of KJA as we can - which is really just adding bad fanfiction to canon.
Or we say KJA is right and Frank just becomes random sequences of quality within a shitty story full of lasers, robots and fury, signifying nothing (like Christopher Nolan directing an episode of The Bold and the Beautiful).

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Postby EsperandoAGodot » 09 Nov 2008 11:08

DuneFishUK wrote:It would be more interesting to reconcile the originals with the DE - maybe even work out if one of the contributors was actually FH himself (which has been suggested but never proven)

Sounds like fun. Go for it.
SandRider wrote:about 15 years of thinking about it, versus "writing" a book by spouting
out whatever comes off the top of your pointed little head while hiking
and planning how to capitalize on the merchandising deals (and changing
diapers ....)

Agreed, except that what I meant was you or I or anyone else posting about anything on this board, not the "writing" of the New Doon.
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Postby TheDukester » 09 Nov 2008 13:08

DuneFishUK wrote:It would be more interesting to reconcile the originals with the DE - maybe even work out if one of the contributors was actually FH himself (which has been suggested but never proven)

Amen. Now there's a project that might have some relevance.

Reconciling the DE with KJA's not-Dune crap? I couldn't possibly care less.
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Postby EsperandoAGodot » 10 Nov 2008 12:59

Well you can do that, then. Far from being a KJA and BH apologist, I just enjoy this kind of exercise.
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Postby MattMahdi » 06 Jan 2009 19:53

SandChigger wrote:If I had to choose between the two, I would choose the Encyclopedia. It is better written and while the "new Dune" works are purportedly based on notes and outlines by FH, the editor and writers of the Encyclopedia at least had some direct input from Frank Herbert while he lived. Brian Herbert claims that he and his father discussed the latter's Dune books, but we have only his word for it and a near dozen of new books that by their very content and approach would seem to make a liar of him.

The fact that the Encyclopedia was designed to be completely an in-universe document is what makes it exciting to me. I bought my copy around thirty years ago, at a used book store in Bellingham, but I never truly appreciated it until more recently. It sat in the shelf, only browsed at occasionally, even as I grew more and more delighted with Frank Herbert's work over the years.

When I bought it I hadn't even read the sequels. I'd tried Dune Messiah but didn't get far. Now, years later, I appreciate why I didn't enjoy the novel when I finally did read it (and I have read it several times since). Most won't understand the reference, but Marc Platt's Doctor Who novel Time's Crucible was an interesting and amazing work of literature that seemed plodding and occasionally agonizing --- but at the end, just as later with Dune Messiah, I understood that, rather than merely being told the story and its events, I actually had to live and experience them.

A document like the Encyclopedia, designed to be something that was a product of people within the Dune universe with no hint of any sort of narrator makes it a delight to browse.

Ironically, it was only when I discovered (through mention on the DuneNovels forum) that there was a PDF copy floating around that I began to truly browse and enjoy the book anew.

Parenthetically: I found the scanned version and the typeset version (as well as what seems to be an abridged Russian version). Sadly the typeset version doesn't have the bibliography which, while fictional, is fascinating. And while I haven't looked too closely, it also has at least one typo. Is there an original version of the files floating around, in whatever word processing or typesetting system, in which changes could be made?

(Then again, incurring the wrath of the HLP would not be wise. Strike that last remark.)

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Postby SandChigger » 07 Jan 2009 04:31

I only know the Russian PDF myself. The scan it was based on was pretty bad. (Norma Cevna, anyone? :roll: )

I got tired of looking at it on screen and bought a copy of the book itself through an Amazon reseller last year....
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Re: this is as nice & polite as I get ......

Postby Samarkan » 06 Mar 2009 15:59

SandRider wrote:That Kevin and Frank's Spawn have turned the name of Dune into Star Wars is what I'm pissed about. (A long, long time ago, on a Desert Planet far, far away ..... )


So true... SW and KJA's DOONE fanfics both contain
1. desert planets
2. slobbering, morbidly-obese, one-dimensional villains
3. gay robots
4. they both feature Jedis and a Jedi Academy

Kelvin J Assmonger should just rename them "Bene Jedirits" so that he can merge both of his shitty fanfic universes. Then he can go ahead and change his latest masterpiece's title to Jessica to The Winds of Tattooine. And he can have Paul be born on Endor. And he can be Paul Skywalker. And Stilgar can be a wookie. And Eraswus can come out of his closet and have a threesome with C3PO and that weird alien creole motherfucker with the floppy ears from Crapisode I (Barbar? Whatever his name was).

But I think the similarities are so apparent because George Lucas lifted some of Frank's ideas. The Jedi were too much like the Bene Gesserit for it to have been a coincidence. They were both mysterious, exclusive societies established for the betterment of mankind. Even though that's a general coincidence, the fact that they both used Voice and were quasi-religious makes it rather obvious that Lucas "borrowed" the idea (just like he "borrowed" the plot from Akira Kurosawa's The Hidden Fortress). Granted, the Jedi do have magical powers that the Bene Gesserit lack but that was what made the BG so plausible. They were well-trained humans and not ZOMG MAGIKAL NINJA WIZARDS!!!1

Lucas and Kalvin J Assderson are such unimaginative hacks. They should just elope and have Dune babies together. Lucas is obviously KJA's type -- a saggy, shapeless, sweaty-looking, dolled-up bovine like KJA's wife(?)/husband whatever that is.

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Postby SandChigger » 06 Mar 2009 16:54

Oh, no, please no more Dune babies! Had enough of those in Grunters and Sadworms. ;)

(Are you saying you don't find 'Becca fetching? :shock: )

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Postby Tleszer » 06 Mar 2009 18:31

SandChigger wrote:(Are you saying you don't find 'Becca fetching? :shock: )
.

ZOMG She's hawt!











:roll:
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Postby Samarkan » 06 Mar 2009 21:39

Tleszer wrote:
SandChigger wrote:(Are you saying you don't find 'Becca fetching? :shock: )
.

ZOMG She's hawt!

:roll:


There's so much of her to love. And her body produces its own natural Crisco sheen. She's a very shiny and buttery person. I bet he keeps some bread on his nightstand so that when he wakes up in the morning all he has to do is rub the bread on her face. Voila! Instant breakfast.

Image

On a side-note, now I see why KJA grew his signature moutee circle beard. The man has no chin. It's just a neck and then his face -- face-neck?

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Postby TheDukester » 06 Mar 2009 22:08

That's his "going out" jacket, right? That one that appears in virtually every photo of KJA ... ? :lol:
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Postby SandChigger » 06 Mar 2009 22:51

Samarkan wrote:There's so much of her to love. And her body produces its own natural Crisco sheen. She's a very shiny and buttery person. I bet he keeps some bread on his nightstand so that when he wakes up in the morning all he has to do is rub the bread on her face. Voila! Instant breakfast.
...

On a side-note, now I see why KJA grew his signature moutee circle beard. The man has no chin. It's just a neck and then his face -- face-neck

:shock:

Samarkan ... setting a new Jacurutu record with every post. :lol:

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Postby Samarkan » 06 Mar 2009 23:11

SandChigger wrote:Samarkan ... setting a new Jacurutu record with every post. :lol:


Thank you! :D

Maybe the face-neck is the reason why Bryon Horbort chose KJA to butcher--er, i mean "continue" the Dune legacy. His arms seem as if they're about to fall off or wither away into vestigial limbs. The visual evidence is conclusive: Kelvin is morphing into a sandworm. He must have overdosed on too much Ultraspice (AKA Abunadeemadhmamajal or whatever the hell he called it in his wacky "novels").

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Postby SandChigger » 06 Mar 2009 23:24

Samarkan wrote:The visual evidence is conclusive: Kelvin is morphing into a sandworm.

Shite-hulard?