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    TBJ

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      The Great Revolt

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    Re: TBJ

    Postby Freakzilla » 10 Oct 2014 06:51

    And yet, the BG never gave up their computers. :wink:
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    Re: TBJ

    Postby lotek » 10 Oct 2014 07:43

    Freakzilla wrote:And yet, the BG never gave up their computers. :wink:


    Indeed.
    And I must say I do not agree with attemps to put some religious fervor in the ruling classes, Dune specifically tells us that religion is a tool to control, and that the ones on top always find loopholes and excuses to do stuff that's technically forbidden.
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    Re: TBJ

    Postby georgiedenbro » 10 Oct 2014 08:46

    lotek wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:And yet, the BG never gave up their computers. :wink:


    Indeed.
    And I must say I do not agree with attemps to put some religious fervor in the ruling classes, Dune specifically tells us that religion is a tool to control, and that the ones on top always find loopholes and excuses to do stuff that's technically forbidden.


    Quite so, people will always push the limits, especially when a lot of time after a cataclysm passes and a new lesson for the bones is needed. In fairness to the BG, though, since they live with the Jihad in their memory every day this is probably not the case with them. I assume they recognized the real need for reform at the time of the Jihad but had a better sense of balance than others and knew what would be ok to keep in order to avoid the same overreaction others made. After all, you don't want the computers to run your life, but how could the BG play Baldur's Gate II without one :ugeek:
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    Re: TBJ

    Postby lotek » 10 Oct 2014 10:01

    It's not just the BG, it's the whole top of the pyramid that does that.
    And I think it's possible to be influenced by the echo of the Jihad while still being able to violate its tenants once in a while.

    Religious people do that all the time, and they're supposed not to, so anyone with a more practical approach will have an even easier time.
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    Re: TBJ

    Postby georgiedenbro » 10 Oct 2014 10:34

    lotek wrote:It's not just the BG, it's the whole top of the pyramid that does that.
    And I think it's possible to be influenced by the echo of the Jihad while still being able to violate its tenants once in a while.

    Religious people do that all the time, and they're supposed not to, so anyone with a more practical approach will have an even easier time.


    No, no, what I mean to say is that while most people (including the nobles) need a repeat lesson 'in their bones' from time to time to prevent them sliding too far from the intended rules, the BG don't ever need a new Jihad or lesson to remind them of the previous one from 10,000 years ago, because they don't forget. The BG can regulate themselves, and the only lessons they need are new lessons, but they have no use for repeats of the old lessons. Other factions really do need repeat applications of older lessons, though, to keep them in line.
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    Re: TBJ

    Postby lotek » 12 Oct 2014 12:20

    I see.
    For something like the Jihad, I'd assume the lessons are already ingrained into the fabric of society. But if the people that are supposed to "enforce" it allow themselves some leeway once in a while, I reckon that however much you are aware of the past will not make a difference.

    No sweeteners will cloak some forms of bitterness. If it tastes bitter, spit it out. That’s what our earliest ancestors did.

    - The Coda

    Give me the judgment of balanced minds in preference to laws every time. Codes and manuals create patterned behavior. All patterned behavior tends to go unquestioned, gathering destructive momentum.
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    Re: TBJ

    Postby georgiedenbro » 12 Oct 2014 12:55

    lotek wrote:I see.
    For something like the Jihad, I'd assume the lessons are already ingrained into the fabric of society. But if the people that are supposed to "enforce" it allow themselves some leeway once in a while, I reckon that however much you are aware of the past will not make a difference

    ...

    Give me the judgment of balanced minds in preference to laws every time. Codes and manuals create patterned behavior. All patterned behavior tends to go unquestioned, gathering destructive momentum.
    -Darwi Odrade


    Hm, I think we may be agreeing with each other on this. I see the 'patterned behavior' as being the lessons ingrained into the fabric of society; people follow it, like laws, but don't think about it too much, and certainly not with the freshness of experience. The Bene Gesserit, aka 'those who act well', are different because they do really think about their behavior and judge it based on the past.

    This subject is very similar to Muad'dib comments about laws being a form of tyranny, where people are ruled by a piece of paper and not by their own judgement. It may as well be a machine ruling them, at that point. He and Leto II certainly had many debts to the BG, I think, in terms of their values and how they considered things, even if they did think the BG fell short in certain areas.
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    Re: TBJ

    Postby lotek » 12 Oct 2014 17:40

    Some interesting quotes that I feel shed some light on this.

    A major concept guides the Missionaria Protectiva: Purposeful instruction of the masses. This is firmly seated in our belief that the aim of argument should be to change the nature of truth. In such matters, we prefer the use of power rather than force.

    Laws to suppress tend to strengthen what they would prohibit. This is the fine point on which all the legal professions of history have based their job security.

    -The Coda

    Ready comprehension is often a knee-jerk response and the most dangerous form of understanding. It blinks an opaque screen over your ability to learn. The judgmental precedents of law function that way, littering your path with dead ends. Be warned. Understand nothing. All comprehension is temporary.

    -Mentat Fixe (adacto)

    Out of curiosity I googled adacto
    adactus
    Latin[edit]
    Participle[edit]
    adactus m (feminine adacta, neuter adactum); first/second declension

    driven
    hurled

    Interesting choice.

    And finally, a quote on truth.

    My father once told me that respect for the truth comes close to being the basis for all morality. "Something cannot emerge from nothing, " he said. This is profound thinking if you understand how unstable "the truth" can be.
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