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    The Great Revolt

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Postby Frybread » 18 Nov 2008 21:16

Freakzilla wrote:Then came the Butlerian Jihad -- two generations of chaos. The god of
machine-logic was overthrown among the masses and a new concept was raised:
"Man may not be replaced."
Those two generations of violence were a thalamic pause for all humankind.
Men looked at their gods and their rituals and saw that both were filled with
that most terrible of all equations: fear over ambition.
Hesitantly, the leaders of religions whose followers had spilled the blood
of billions began meeting to exchange views. It was a move encouraged by the
Spacing Guild, which was beginning to build its monopoly over all interstellar
travel, and by the Bene Gesserit who were banding the sorceresses.

~Dune, Appendix II

Obviously not peacefull.


So the BJ was not peaceful, but it did involve riots and killings in a kind of mob violence.

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Postby Freakzilla » 18 Nov 2008 21:21

Frybread wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:Then came the Butlerian Jihad -- two generations of chaos. The god of
machine-logic was overthrown among the masses and a new concept was raised:
"Man may not be replaced."
Those two generations of violence were a thalamic pause for all humankind.
Men looked at their gods and their rituals and saw that both were filled with
that most terrible of all equations: fear over ambition.
Hesitantly, the leaders of religions whose followers had spilled the blood
of billions began meeting to exchange views. It was a move encouraged by the
Spacing Guild, which was beginning to build its monopoly over all interstellar
travel, and by the Bene Gesserit who were banding the sorceresses.

~Dune, Appendix II

Obviously not peacefull.


So the BJ was not peaceful, but it did involve riots and killings in a kind of mob violence.


Not only that, there were even billions more killed in riots after the CET.
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Postby SandChigger » 18 Nov 2008 23:27

Um...not quite:

Historians estimate the riots took eighty million lives. That works out to about six thousand for each world then in the Landsraad League.

Billions died in the Jihad. Less than 100 million in the C.E.T. riots.

Note that bit in the other quote, too: "religions whose followers had spilled the blood of billions". Can there be any clearer statement that the Jihad was people killing people, not machines killing them? :roll:

And I believe the BG probaby began forming well before the Jihad, because they were fairly highly organized by the time of the Battle of Corrin. The Mentats would not have started appearing until well after. (What reason would there have been for them before? Mensa radicals? :roll: ) And the Guild wouldn't have begun forming until midway through or immediately after the Jihad. (I like to think of them as "decommissioned" mujahideen who decide to go into business; sometime during the Jihad they would have discovered that they could remain ideologically pure by destroying their computers and using psychics to foresee whether the navigational calculations someone came up with were going to be safe or not. Eventually the psychics would have been trained to do the math and ... the first Navigators were born. ... Doesn't that seem more "plausible" than some metamorphing magical midget bitch getting high on spice fumes?)
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Postby Freakzilla » 19 Nov 2008 09:51

SandChigger wrote:Um...not quite:

Historians estimate the riots took eighty million lives. That works out to about six thousand for each world then in the Landsraad League.

Billions died in the Jihad. Less than 100 million in the C.E.T. riots.


Thanks for correcting me.

Note that bit in the other quote, too: "religions whose followers had spilled the blood of billions". Can there be any clearer statement that the Jihad was people killing people, not machines killing them? :roll:


Not for me, but somehow P&TB read "killer robots" into that.

And I believe the BG probaby began forming well before the Jihad, because they were fairly highly organized by the time of the Battle of Corrin.


What does the Battle of Corrin have to do with the Butlerian Jihad?
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Postby GamePlayer » 19 Nov 2008 11:20

Wow, nice quotes.

So what began the Butlerian Jihad? Was it something like a violent movement against a kind of machine-logic revolution? Perhaps an industrial revolution of a sort that was stopped by a violent revolution rather than allowed to progress? Humans had their livelihood taken from them by thinking machines and thus violently opposed machine-logic?

What a fascinating idea and quite tragic. The jihad would have resulted in the genocide of an entire race of conscious machines. I can just imagine in my mind a picture of a violently enraged human standing over a damaged robot on the ground, the machine's appendage raised in surrender, pleading for mercy as the human raises a bludgeon over his head prepared to end the life of his thinking machine victim. Entire industries or even planets could have had their economy devastated if the thinking-machine manufacturing and support industries were destroyed. Imagine the modern analogy, like what would happen to our planet if some enviro-Nazi movement got enough popular support to conduct a jihad against oil companies.

I always suspected Frank would write something very socio-political like that for the Butlerian Jihad and not a Terminator scenario (though I really hate using that analogy, since Terminator is fantastic sci-fi and KJA/BH are shit).

This doesn't necessarily mean machines were not involved in the fighting, but it was a human endeavour that ultimately ruled their fate. The machines likely played a role in the BJ, but they were really pawns of a much greater, more terrifying human conflict.

FUCK! What an awesome idea. It makes me hate what was done with the BJ by those two fuck ups even more! :evil:
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Postby Freakzilla » 19 Nov 2008 11:33

GamePlayer wrote:So what began the Butlerian Jihad? Was it something like a violent movement against a kind of machine-logic revolution? Perhaps an industrial revolution of a sort that was stopped by a violent revolution rather than allowed to progress? Humans had their livelihood taken from them by thinking machines and thus violently opposed machine-logic?


I don't think FH ever gives us and hints as to what sparked the whole thing off so your guess is as good as mine. I think the Sorceresses started it:

It was a time of sorceresses whose powers were real. The measure of them is
seen in the fact they never boasted how they grasped the firebrand.

~Dune, Appendix II

firebrand
–noun
2. a person who kindles strife or encourages unrest; an agitator; troublemaker.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/firebrand

What a fascinating idea and quite tragic. The jihad would have resulted in the genocide of an entire race of conscious machines. I can just imagine in my mind a picture of a violently enraged human standing over a damaged robot on the ground, the machine's appendage raised in surrender, pleading for mercy as the human raises a bludgeon over his head prepared to end the life of his thinking machine victim. Entire industries or even planets could have had their economy devastated if the thinking-machine manufacturing and support industries were destroyed. Imagine the modern analogy, like what would happen to our planet if some enviro-Nazi movement got enough popular support to conduct a jihad against oil companies.

I always suspected Frank would write something very socio-political like that for the Butlerian Jihad and not a Terminator scenario (though I really hate using that analogy, since Terminator is fantastic sci-fi and KJA/BH are shit).

This doesn't necessarily mean machines were not involved in the fighting, but it was a human endeavour that ultimately ruled their fate. The machines likely played a role in the BJ, but they were really pawns of a much greater, more terrifying human conflict.

FUCK! What an awesome idea. It makes me hate what was done with the BJ by those two fuck ups even more! :evil:


The Butlerian Jihad could have been a truely epic story. I too think the Terminater series is great SF, it's just the total opposite of what you'd expect from Dune and I think that's why people refer to it in this context.
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Postby GamePlayer » 19 Nov 2008 12:49

Ah. Well that's okay too. Frank Herbert's work spurs the imagination. Hell, I just had more fun spilling out my thoughts about the BJ in that last post than I ever would have reading a KJA/BH novel.

I understand why the Terminator scenario makes a good analogy, I just feel uncomfortable equating (even in the most vague terms) something as good as The Terminator with two hacks like KJA and BH.

I do wonder, was the BJ a possible event that spurred the creation of Feudalism in the Imperium? If the BJ devastated entire economies and planets, killing billions, perhaps the houses were seen as a way to preserve/salvage the wealth that was being lost or assert control in a more direct fashion. Or perhaps the system was feudal all along, but it kinda makes sense that a conflict of the enormous scale of the BJ would result in a major shift in the makeup of the economic and political systems in the imperium.
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Postby Freakzilla » 19 Nov 2008 12:57

GamePlayer wrote:Ah. Well that's okay too. Frank Herbert's work spurs the imagination. Hell, I just had more fun spilling out my thoughts about the BJ in that last post than I ever would have reading a KJA/BH novel.

I understand why the Terminator scenario makes a good analogy, I just feel uncomfortable equating (even in the most vague terms) something as good as The Terminator with two hacks like KJA and BH.


I argree, Terminator is good SF and shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath as the Hacks Twain.

I do wonder, was the BJ a possible event that spurred the creation of Feudalism in the Imperium? If the BJ devastated entire economies and planets, killing billions, perhaps the houses were seen as a way to preserve/salvage the wealth that was being lost or assert control in a more direct fashion. Or perhaps the system was feudal all along, but it kinda makes sense that a conflict of the enormous scale of the BJ would result in a major shift in the makeup of the economic and political systems in the imperium.


The Landsraad had been in operation for 2,000 continuous years before the Butlerian Jihad:

Riots and comedy are but symptoms of the times, profoundly revealing. They
betray the psychological tone, the deep uncertainties . . . and the striving for
something better, plus the fear that nothing would come of it all.
The major dams against anarchy in these times were the embryo Guild, the
Bene Gesserit and the Landsraad, which continued its 2,000-year record of
meeting in spite of the severest obstacles
. The Guild's part appears clear: they
gave free transport for all Landsraad and C.E.T. business. The Bene Gesserit
role is more obscure. Certainly, this is the time in which they consolidated
their hold upon the sorceresses, explored the subtle narcotics, developed pranabindu
training and conceived the Missionaria Protectiva, that black arm of
superstition. But it is also the period that saw the composing of the Litany
against Fear and the assembly of the Azhar Book, that bibliographic marvel that
preserves the great secrets of the most ancient faiths.

~Dune, Appendix II

It is mentioned later in the series that the Feudal system was determined to be the best way to colonize new planets:

Three -- Planetary feudalism remained in constant danger from a large
technical class, but the effects of the Butlerian Jihad continued as a damper on
technological excesses. Ixians, Tleilaxu, and a few scattered outer planets were
the only possible threat in this regard, and they were planet-vulnerable to the
combined wrath of the rest of the Imperium. The Butlerian Jihad would not be
undone. Mechanized warfare required a large technical class. The Atreides
Imperium had channeled this force into other pursuits. No large technical class
existed unwatched. And the Empire remained safely feudalist, naturally, since
that was the best social form for spreading over widely dispersed wild frontiers
-- new planets.

~Children of Dune
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Postby GamePlayer » 19 Nov 2008 13:38

I knew the Landsraad existed long before the BJ, but I didn't know if it existed in the current form as a fuedal collection of fiefdoms. Perhaps I'm remembering too many details from the Encyclopedia (or letting it influence my interpretation of the background of Dune too much), but I wasn't sure how long the Imperium was Feudal. Sounds like feudalism took over the Imperium and never let go the whole time. Interesting.
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Postby Freakzilla » 19 Nov 2008 13:50

GamePlayer wrote:I knew the Landsraad existed long before the BJ, but I didn't know if it existed in the current form as a fuedal collection of fiefdoms. Perhaps I'm remembering too many details from the Encyclopedia (or letting it influence my interpretation of the background of Dune too much), but I wasn't sure how long the Imperium was Feudal. Sounds like feudalism took over the Imperium and never let go the whole time. Interesting.


I've always assumed that the Landsraad was always composed of the leaders of the Great Houses, which would impy feudalism. I have no reason to, or not to, for that matter.
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Postby SandChigger » 19 Nov 2008 16:19

Lots to disgest here; just three points for now:

Freakzilla wrote:Thanks for correcting me.

That's...an implicit threat, right? :shock:

;)

Freakzilla wrote:
I wrote:And I believe the BG probaby began forming well before the Jihad, because they were fairly highly organized by the time of the Battle of Corrin.

What does the Battle of Corrin have to do with the Butlerian Jihad

Nothing! I mention it because of the crystal recording Odrade gives Lucilla, about the recruitment of the Jews: it was made by the Mother Superior at the time of the Battle of Corrin, just twenty years or so after the Battle of Corrin. By then the BG have Mother Superiors, Other Memory in some form, "well-recorded" ancestry data (of their own Jewish and other heritages).

The Terminology says the BG started after the Jihad, but that could be erroneous (in-universe text). And, of course, the old Mother Superior could have been lying. But it looks like some (any) RM with the proper OM would have spotted the lie in all the intervening generations, so I tend to give the narrative (story) text greater weight.

Freakzilla wrote:It was a time of sorceresses whose powers were real. The measure of them is
seen in the fact they never boasted how they grasped the firebrand.

~Dune, Appendix II

firebrand
–noun
2. a person who kindles strife or encourages unrest; an agitator; troublemaker.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/firebrand

This came up again just the other day with EAG; I still don't buy it. It'd be fine if FH had written

they never boasted what firebrands they were

THAT would accord with the definition you're both using. But that's not what was written. You have to take it in the context of its use in the verb phrase "grasp the firebrand". (Otherwise, explain "grasp" there. What, they grabbed an agitator? Does that make sense? )

Finally (and I almost posted this yesterday but held back), I think the Jihad was started by a bunch of backward future Muslims. (Sure, they're watered down with a splash of Zen.) :P
Last edited by SandChigger on 19 Nov 2008 19:05, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Freakzilla » 19 Nov 2008 16:42

So what do you think that phrase means, the sorceresses were swinging red-hot pokers?

:roll:

I think the definition fits, we just don't know who the actual firebrand was.

We know the BG existed before the BoC due to that crystal recording, also the appendix states they were banding the sorcesses at the time of the BJ. I've imagined that the BG were something much different prior to banding the sorceresses, and maybe derived much of their "witchery" from them to become what we are familiar with. They probably didn't dedicate themselves to developing human mental skills until after the BJ.
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Postby SandChigger » 19 Nov 2008 19:38

Freakzilla wrote:So what do you think that phrase means, the sorceresses were swinging red-hot pokers?

:roll:

I think the definition fits, we just don't know who the actual firebrand was.

:roll: right back at you. (Remember, I got an unlimited budget on the things. ;) )

NO, of course I'm not imagining witches with hot pointy things. Or wielding magical powers, either. But yes, I do think the word "firebrand" does have its original meaning here: "a piece of burning wood." AND that in this context the whole phrase "grasp the firebrand" means "inciting change or taking radical action, at some personal risk." In other words, acting as an agitator. So we're really not in disagreement at all; it's just a question of how we explain it. We do agree that there was no "magic", right? ;)

Here's what I think that quoted passage means:

In that period there were women who had (through practice and breeding, etc.) developed certain abilities (martial arts, early prana-bindu?) beyond those of the normal/average human and they exercised their "powers" in ways intended to cause radical change in the people and societies around them. They remained behind the scenes, out of the public eye, and didn't show off what they could do. The few outsiders who were aware of their existence regarded them as weird, as witches and sorceresses.

Anything problematic in that?

(Note the contrast—yet again!—between the humility implied there and the show-offy "Watch my hair crackle and pop!" exhibitionism of that stupid bitch Zufa BimBombaMama in front of the League of Nobles assembly or whatever in the first Legends book. :roll: )

We know the BG existed before the BoC due to that crystal recording, also the appendix states they were banding the sorcesses at the time of the BJ. I've imagined that the BG were something much different prior to banding the sorceresses, and maybe derived much of their "witchery" from them to become what we are familiar with. They probably didn't dedicate themselves to developing human mental skills until after the BJ.

No argument here at all. :)

The BG "banded them together"...absorbing the various groups of such women they found along with their abilities. Kind of a "Borg Gesserit", adding the distinctiveness of each to their own. ;)
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Postby Lundse » 19 Nov 2008 20:08

SandChigger wrote:...But yes, I do think the word "firebrand" does have its original meaning here: "a piece of burning wood." AND that in this context the whole phrase "grasp the firebrand" means "inciting change or taking radical action, at some personal risk." In other words, acting as an agitator.


This is what I assumed too, that it was a set phrase meaning just that - sounds sort-of biblical...

[quote='Some jew a long time ago']15:4 And Samson went and caught three hundred foxes, and took firebrands, and turned tail to tail, and put a firebrand in the midst between two tails.

26:18 As a mad man who casteth firebrands, arrows, and death, 26:19 So
is the man that deceiveth his neighbour, [/quote]

Nothing about grasping, though, but I think it demonstrates that firebrand can also mean that which causes trouble and not just the person. Thus, grasping the firebrand could mean to take up power and wield it, to incite to violence and brandish one's power.


I am not at all sure, since even Webster let me down on this supposed idiom. Googling, I found this:

who better than the mad eyed gung-ho duo of McCain/Palin to eagerly grasp the firebrand of continuing the war.
http://whatreallyhappened.com/content/mystery-surrounds-cia-chief-lebanon-trip-0



Also interesting:

lay the foundations of a boy's true faith upon the very ruins of what he has been calling his creed ; if the reformer, full of the visions of a bright, free, happy land, knows often that he must take the firebrand and set the land on fire before he can begin his work...
http://www.archive.org/stream/influenceofjesus00broo/influenceofjesus00broo_djvu.txt



And just because one other word caught my eye, I also include this:

She met (there) a ghoula (she-jinnie) roasting… a donkey. She counted them and found they were ten pieces (of firebrands) and she slept there. This girl got up and went. This ghoula saw her and did not talk to her. She took the firebrand and the ghoula tripped her (made her fall).
http://www.rzuser.uni-hd.de/~g25/test/pdf/arab/rosenhouse/rosenhouse_saxnin_5.pdf

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Postby Freakzilla » 19 Nov 2008 20:30

SandChigger wrote:NO, of course I'm not imagining witches with hot pointy things. Or wielding magical powers, either. But yes, I do think the word "firebrand" does have its original meaning here: "a piece of burning wood." AND that in this context the whole phrase "grasp the firebrand" means "inciting change or taking radical action, at some personal risk." In other words, acting as an agitator. So we're really not in disagreement at all; it's just a question of how we explain it. We do agree that there was no "magic", right? ;)

Here's what I think that quoted passage means:

In that period there were women who had (through practice and breeding, etc.) developed certain abilities (martial arts, early prana-bindu?) beyond those of the normal/average human and they exercised their "powers" in ways intended to cause radical change in the people and societies around them. They remained behind the scenes, out of the public eye, and didn't show off what they could do. The few outsiders who were aware of their existence regarded them as weird, as witches and sorceresses.

Anything problematic in that?

(Note the contrast—yet again!—between the humility implied there and the show-offy "Watch my hair crackle and pop!" exhibitionism of that stupid bitch Zufa BimBombaMama in front of the League of Nobles assembly or whatever in the first Legends book. :roll: )

We know the BG existed before the BoC due to that crystal recording, also the appendix states they were banding the sorcesses at the time of the BJ. I've imagined that the BG were something much different prior to banding the sorceresses, and maybe derived much of their "witchery" from them to become what we are familiar with. They probably didn't dedicate themselves to developing human mental skills until after the BJ.

No argument here at all. :)

The BG "banded them together"...absorbing the various groups of such women they found along with their abilities. Kind of a "Borg Gesserit", adding the distinctiveness of each to their own. ;)


I think we're in agreement here.

It seems "firebrand"can be used in some curiously different contexts.
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Postby EsperandoAGodot » 19 Nov 2008 23:42

SandChigger wrote:NO, of course I'm not imagining witches with hot pointy things. Or wielding magical powers, either. But yes, I do think the word "firebrand" does have its original meaning here: "a piece of burning wood." AND that in this context the whole phrase "grasp the firebrand" means "inciting change or taking radical action, at some personal risk." In other words, acting as an agitator. So we're really not in disagreement at all; it's just a question of how we explain it. We do agree that there was no "magic", right? ;)

Here's what I think that quoted passage means:

In that period there were women who had (through practice and breeding, etc.) developed certain abilities (martial arts, early prana-bindu?) beyond those of the normal/average human and they exercised their "powers" in ways intended to cause radical change in the people and societies around them. They remained behind the scenes, out of the public eye, and didn't show off what they could do. The few outsiders who were aware of their existence regarded them as weird, as witches and sorceresses.

Anything problematic in that?


(Note the contrast—yet again!—between the humility implied there and the show-offy "Watch my hair crackle and pop!" exhibitionism of that stupid bitch Zufa BimBombaMama in front of the League of Nobles assembly or whatever in the first Legends book. :roll: )[/quote]
Gee, this argument sounds familiar, huh Chig?

Random question that doesn't belong in this thread: did the Harkonnen rule from Carthag after they wiped out House Atreides, or did they stay in Arrakeen?
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Postby SandChigger » 20 Nov 2008 05:02

Good question. I would assume they stayed in Arrakeen:

...Piter said. ... "In a few days Standard, the entire household of the Duke Leto will embark on a Spacing Guild liner for Arrakis. The Guild will deposit them at the city of Arrakeen rather than at our city of Carthag. The Duke's Mentat, Thufir Hawat, will have concluded rightly that Arrakeen is easier to defend."

Begs the question of why they didn't make it their capital city to begin with, but never mind. Carthag isn't mentioned again after the initial attack....

This had been the worst night of Hawat's life. He had been at Tsimpo, a garrison village, buffer outpost for the former capital city, Carthag, when the reports of attack began arriving. At first, he'd thought: It's a raid. The Harkonnens are testing.

But report followed report—faster and faster.

Two legions landed at Carthag.

That's the last time Frank Herbert mentioned the place.
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Postby SandChigger » 20 Nov 2008 05:40

Freakzilla wrote:I've always assumed that the Landsraad was always composed of the leaders of the Great Houses, which would impy feudalism. I have no reason to, or not to, for that matter.

I initially (earlier in the year, when those T(A)U forums were set up) leaned towards what I guess turns out to be an Encyclopedia-type origin (I haven't read that part of the book, but noticed something about it on WP yesterday), a fairly natural result/outgrowth of a need to regulate and protect intersystem trade and travel.

But then Freak wrote some things back then that made me reevaluate the whole picture; all in terms of my own interpretation of Duniverse history, of course. To wit:

During the eight millennia or so of the Long Diaspora, there was very little in the way of real wars (especially of conquest) conducted beyond the limits of a few neighboring systems because the expense and travel times simply made it unfeasible. (Imagine some future Alexander crawling from one bright spark to the next—maybe staying relativistically young or sleeping away the long nights between in some sort of stasis—conquering planet after planet, system after system, ever aware that Seleucids and Ptolemies would divide his spoils before he even reached the next. What would drive that man?) I figure there were probably a wide variety of governmental systems being used. (I still haven't attempted an estimate of how many settled systems there might be at the end of this period. I'm assuming an exponential rise to that 13,000+ figure after transportation improves. Speaking of which....)

Then comes along space-folding and within a generation or two or three the battleships are being sent out. I'm roughly giving them from 500 to 1,000 years or so to unify all of human/machine space under a central authority; whether that means an emperor or something else, who knows? (Unlike a certain pair of famous dimwits, I don't assume that the final form is achieved immediately and then never changes.) The Landsraad could have developed as an association of system representatives following (or resulting in?) an assertion of local autonomy against the excesses, oppression and/or abuses of a central authority (think Runnymede reenacted on Rigel III ;) ); or maybe it developed more like the Roman Senate? (The details of which I'm a little fuzzy on at the moment.)

I think it's wisest to leave open the possibility that the nature of The Thang changed, and most likely significantly, over the many millennia of its existence....
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Postby GamePlayer » 20 Nov 2008 12:20

Is there a rough chronology of the Dune universe? Something that states the known dates and maybe a few speculative dates using a process of elimination based on what was/was not stated in the books? It would be really helpful for reference.

(naturally I mean Frank-only Dune material) :)
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Postby SandRider » 20 Nov 2008 12:37

other than the Torkos timeline, you mean ?
http://www.dunenovels.com/timeline.html
I've not looked at this enough to know if it's useless or not ....
I'll assume it is ....

{edit} here's the one published in DE:
http://www.usul.net/books/timeline.htm
and whatever this is:
http://www.russellbateman.com/dune.html
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Postby GamePlayer » 20 Nov 2008 13:18

Hopefully one of the more knowledgeable fans can confirm the usefulness of the latter two lists.

Btw, SandRider, I don't follow any links to Dunenovels, so I don't know what is posted in your first link. Just something to be aware in the future.
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Postby Freakzilla » 20 Nov 2008 13:42

GamePlayer wrote:Hopefully one of the more knowledgeable fans can confirm the usefulness of the latter two lists.


Those two both appear to be the same timeline from the DE but the "russellbateman" one has events from the Legend and Prelude series included but not Hunters or Sandworms.

I can't vouch for the accuracy of any of them right now. I'd feel more comfortable writing my own.
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Postby GamePlayer » 20 Nov 2008 14:19

That would make me much more comfortable as well. I'm not as well versed in Dune as I'd like and it's very important to me that I learn only the Frank Herbert chronology and nothing more.

We have to create one such chronology and post it here on Jacurutu in a stickied topic.
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Postby EsperandoAGodot » 20 Nov 2008 14:42

As far as I know, there's no reason to claim inaccuracy from the DE timeline, but a case can be made for claiming incompleteness.
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Postby Freakzilla » 20 Nov 2008 15:26

EsperandoAGodot wrote:As far as I know, there's no reason to claim inaccuracy from the DE timeline, but a case can be made for claiming incompleteness.


More than that, there are events which come from the DE itself and not FH's books.
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