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Postby GamePlayer » 20 Nov 2008 15:26

I wouldn't be opposed to inclusion of DE events, only a desire for distinction between the two. Add DE entries in a different color or as abridgments in a column along the side of the list, but I'd like to have a chronology that just does the Frank stuff. It's the only canon stuff after all and we can speculate from there.
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Postby Freakzilla » 20 Nov 2008 15:26

GamePlayer wrote:That would make me much more comfortable as well. I'm not as well versed in Dune as I'd like and it's very important to me that I learn only the Frank Herbert chronology and nothing more.

We have to create one such chronology and post it here on Jacurutu in a stickied topic.


Maybe I can get something started this weekend...
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Postby GamePlayer » 20 Nov 2008 15:28

Freakzilla wrote:Maybe I can get something started this weekend...


Sounds good.

GamePlayer wrote:I wouldn't be opposed to inclusion of DE events, only a desire for distinction between the two. Add DE entries in a different color or as abridgments in a column along the side of the list, but I'd like to have a chronology that just does the Frank stuff. It's the only canon stuff after all and we can speculate from there.
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Postby Frybread » 20 Nov 2008 15:56

Freakzilla wrote:
GamePlayer wrote:That would make me much more comfortable as well. I'm not as well versed in Dune as I'd like and it's very important to me that I learn only the Frank Herbert chronology and nothing more.

We have to create one such chronology and post it here on Jacurutu in a stickied topic.


Maybe I can get something started this weekend...


Cool.

As far as the dating goes, doesn't the timeline on DN say that 0 A.G. is A.D. 13,000?

If that's the case, then the events of "Dune" would have happened around 23,190 A.D., and CHD would have been around 28,200 A.D.?

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Postby Freakzilla » 20 Nov 2008 16:21

Frybread wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:
GamePlayer wrote:That would make me much more comfortable as well. I'm not as well versed in Dune as I'd like and it's very important to me that I learn only the Frank Herbert chronology and nothing more.

We have to create one such chronology and post it here on Jacurutu in a stickied topic.


Maybe I can get something started this weekend...


Cool.

As far as the dating goes, doesn't the timeline on DN say that 0 A.G. is A.D. 13,000?

If that's the case, then the events of "Dune" would have happened around 23,190 A.D., and CHD would have been around 28,200 A.D.?


The Dune appendix says that space travel began 110 centuries (11,000 years) before the Butlerian Jihad.

That is the only reference to our time, you could be generous and say the space race began around 1960 and count that as the begining of space travel. So, 1960 would be equivalent to 11,000 BG. So more accurately, 0 AG would be 12,960.

[edit]

I forgot to include the two generations of the BJ itself. That would put us closer to 13,000 CE depending on what you call a generation.
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Postby SandChigger » 20 Nov 2008 19:20

Wasn't Holtzm...I mean, Edric working on a revision of the (official DN) Torkos timeline? ;)

As for the date of the Jihad...

Mankind's movement through deep space placed a unique stamp on religion during the one hundred and ten centuries that preceded the Butlerian Jihad.

We first went into space in the middle of the 20th century, but in my opinion we have yet to journey through deep space. How to define that is an open question—would the more-than-one-year trip to Mars qualify? Or a jaunt out to one of the Jovians or their moons? (I personally think of it as meaning a mission to another star system and imagine it sometime between middle to late third millennium...say 2750 for a round number. ;) )

As for including elements and events from the Encyclopedia or its chronology, I choose not to. Besides the really silly bits like the often mentioned ornithopter mollusks :rolls:, parts of it just don't make sense; like Cyborg Holtzman playing peek-a-boo in space, and Ecaz being discovered in 8112 B.G. (That's like 3,000 years after that "movement through deep space" begins...for a planet that is just next door, 4.2 light years away? There'll be methods of detection that will SHOW US the planet long before anyone ever thinks of going there.)

Most important, there's no way of knowing what ideas are FH's. If we're going to be building on speculation, I prefer my own.
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Postby SandRider » 24 Nov 2008 14:26

Over There » For Lovers of both the Classic Dune AND the Prequels » God Emperor of Dune (Let's Review) // today

Merritt wrote: The big battle we've had going on on these message boards pertains to this issue. Many point to this comment in Dune (page eight) shortly after Mohiam tests Paul with the pain box:

"Once men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them."

Mohiam says this to Paul.
I don't think this solely implies men battling other men with machines during The Butlerian Jihad. It certainly could mean Erasmus and Omnius (men/brains within machines who are enslaved themselves) in some fashion. The Butlerian Jihad was a huge ordeal for men, proscribing centuries of prohibition against thinking machines. The reason, IMO, is because these machines somehow took over (not men with machines taking over). Mankind had to fight back with everything they had in order to beat them.

Bel Moulay wrote:could these men using machines to enslave men be cymeks? I know there's many Herbertarian Orthodox people here but I think it's time everyone should take all the Dune books as it is. Brian and Kevin did all they could to write about the Jihad from the little clues and hints we get throughout the books.
For example I believe it was in Children of Dune I think it was either Ghanima or Leto II who looked back in the past and saw a man who used to be a servent for the machines preach passionatly against them.
In this case that nameless man is Iblis Ginjo.


Frank wrote : "...other men with machines to enslave them."
Merritt wrote: "... these machines somehow took over (not men with machines taking over)."

what kind of intellectual midget could twist such a simple statement ? for the sole purpose of bolstering a throw-away idea from Keith's throw-away book ? Merritt is either really, really simple-minded or such an evil little mouthpiece he doesn't care what he has to say to justify the new nonsense.
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Postby GamePlayer » 24 Nov 2008 14:32

Oh, you'd be surprised how people can talk themselves into almost anything :)

Seriously, Byron is not the first desperately accommodating fan to invent the most convoluted explanation imaginable to reconcile something that is directly contradicted by the original creator. And he sadly won't be the last.
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Postby EsperandoAGodot » 24 Nov 2008 16:10

SandRider wrote:
Over There » For Lovers of both the Classic Dune AND the Prequels » God Emperor of Dune (Let's Review) // today

Merritt wrote: The big battle we've had going on on these message boards pertains to this issue. Many point to this comment in Dune (page eight) shortly after Mohiam tests Paul with the pain box:

"Once men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them."

Mohiam says this to Paul.
I don't think this solely implies men battling other men with machines during The Butlerian Jihad. It certainly could mean Erasmus and Omnius (men/brains within machines who are enslaved themselves) in some fashion. The Butlerian Jihad was a huge ordeal for men, proscribing centuries of prohibition against thinking machines. The reason, IMO, is because these machines somehow took over (not men with machines taking over). Mankind had to fight back with everything they had in order to beat them.

Bel Moulay wrote:could these men using machines to enslave men be cymeks? I know there's many Herbertarian Orthodox people here but I think it's time everyone should take all the Dune books as it is. Brian and Kevin did all they could to write about the Jihad from the little clues and hints we get throughout the books.
For example I believe it was in Children of Dune I think it was either Ghanima or Leto II who looked back in the past and saw a man who used to be a servent for the machines preach passionatly against them.
In this case that nameless man is Iblis Ginjo.


Frank wrote : "...other men with machines to enslave them."
Merritt wrote: "... these machines somehow took over (not men with machines taking over)."

what kind of intellectual midget could twist such a simple statement ? for the sole purpose of bolstering a throw-away idea from Keith's throw-away book ? Merritt is either really, really simple-minded or such an evil little mouthpiece he doesn't care what he has to say to justify the new nonsense.

Well the biggest problem is that he's not even making anything resembling an argument. It "could mean something, in some fashion" is an admission that you're manipulating the words to mean something they don't. And then this part is absolutely ridiculous:
The reason, IMO, is because these machines somehow took over (not men with machines taking over)

Because I) Nobody cares what his opinion is, because it's not a matter of opinion and II) The text says it was men with machines, so his "opinion" - he's misusing the word - is in direct opposition to the text, which he points out.

Why...can't we accept subtlety?
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Postby chanilover » 24 Nov 2008 18:14

I don't think this solely implies men battling other men with machines during The Butlerian Jihad. It certainly could mean Erasmus and Omnius (men/brains within machines who are enslaved themselves


What does Byron mean by this? I thought Erasmus was a robot and Omnius was a demented computer programme. What do they have to do with brains within machines. I thought the brains within machines were those stupid cymek things and the brains in jars (cognitors?).
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Postby SimonH » 24 Nov 2008 18:23

I don't think this solely implies men battling other men with machines during The Butlerian Jihad. It certainly could mean Erasmus and Omnius (men/brains within machines who are enslaved themselves


wow, Byron is nearing psychological denial with this one. Is he inferring that we should feel sorry for Erasmus and Omnius in their slavery?

I really do feel that he is a closet OH and that his true opinion is bubbling below the surface, aching to be expressed: "the new books are shit! the new books are shit! the new books are shit!!! ah... back to defending them" :D

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Postby SandChigger » 24 Nov 2008 21:34

chanilover wrote:
I don't think this solely implies men battling other men with machines during The Butlerian Jihad. It certainly could mean Erasmus and Omnius (men/brains within machines who are enslaved themselves

What does Byron mean by this? I thought Erasmus was a robot and Omnius was a demented computer programme. What do they have to do with brains within machines. I thought the brains within machines were those stupid cymek things and the brains in jars (cognitors?).

WhoTF knows?

Obviously having had his beer cut off by the doctor is driving him psychotic.

:idea:

Let's hope he runs amok and deletes the entire board! :lol:
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Postby SandRider » 24 Nov 2008 21:54

trying as hard as I can ...... :twisted:
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Postby GamePlayer » 24 Nov 2008 23:53

It doesn't mean anything. That's the problem.
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Postby Omphalos » 25 Nov 2008 00:06

I would like nothing more than for that crap hole to disappear into the ground, and every word I ever typed there to go with it.

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Postby SandRider » 25 Nov 2008 00:16

trying as hard as I can .... within the law, I guess .... :cry:
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Postby moreh_yeladim » 29 Nov 2008 17:53

My theory on the "men with machines" follows.

When mankind first went out into space, it was mankind as we know mankind today -- specifically, a mankind with a great variety of national divisions and social systems. However, at some point some clever bastards start learning how to take over the computer systems that run all mechanical infrastructure. These are the "other men with machines [who] enslave[d] them". They bring whole planets under control using their control of mechanical infrastructure (including some military robots) and a dispensing of power to select human followers, and thus create the interstellar feudalism we see until "Dune".

Then the humans who don't wish to submit to rule by mechanized armies of other men launch the Buterlian Jihad to rid themselves of the perceived weakness in their society of relying on machines. After the Jihad, the winners maintain their rule by dispensing feudal titles in the manner of the Rulers with Machines and create the Imperium with its Great Houses and Padishah Emperor. The Mentats, Spacing Guild, and Bene Gesserit come into being and humanity begins its period of relying on the spice.

So Leto II's Golden Path did not just rid humanity of its dependence on spice and choking ties to a single ruler, it also made sure that "the Ixians can no longer create arafel", that nobody would or could create a way to concentrate control of machine infrastructure into one hand.

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Postby Tleszer » 29 Nov 2008 23:34

Actually, it does sort of make sense that they weren't rebelling against machines with AI, but in part against the possibility of machine AI taking on the form of human greed/power. It was a fear of them becoming like us. At least (some) humans (KJA?) could be reasoned with.
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Postby SandChigger » 30 Nov 2008 04:18

Carbocentrism will no doubt be a(n important?) factor as well. Many will resist recognizing AI as alternate forms of life. Or granting them any sort of rights similar to those of "real" people. Can't treat machine intelligence like slaves then. ;)
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Postby EsperandoAGodot » 30 Nov 2008 21:44

SandChigger wrote:Carbocentrism will no doubt be a(n important?) factor as well. Many will resist recognizing AI as alternate forms of life. Or granting them any sort of rights similar to those of "real" people. Can't treat machine intelligence like slaves then. ;)

Which ties back into the fear of them: as it becomes harder to deny them as equals, it will likely become harder to not fear them as possible usurpers.
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Postby SandChigger » 30 Nov 2008 22:45

Ahp, indeed. After they had reached a certain point of development, denying them could only be based on such fear, no?
I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

I don't like every writer's style; for instance, I have never been able to get through Ursula LeGuin, China Mieville, or Iain Banks, all of whom are critical darlings. —KJA

I...had written a bunch of Star Wars and X-Files books...that proved not just that I'm a hack, but that I could write in somebody else's universe... —KJA

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Postby inhuien » 02 Dec 2008 13:02

Never having read any of this Kurzweil chappie you're talking about I've no idea how his predictions fit in to this thread. Would you mind supplying a quick overview please?
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Postby inhuien » 02 Dec 2008 14:30

^^Thanks again.
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Postby inhuien » 15 Jan 2009 14:08

Found this nice wee quote while glancing throught GEoD this evening, Leto is speaking to Moneo...

"She makes me recall the Butlerian Jihad in a poignant way. She is the antithesis of all that's mechanical and non-human. How odd it is, Moneo, that the lxians, of all people, should produce this one pers on who so perfectly embodies those qualities which I hold most dear."
"I do not understand your reference to the Butlerian Jihad, Lord, machines that think have no place in.. ."

"The target of the Jihad was a machine-attitude as much as the machines," Leto said. "Humans had set those machines to usurp our sense of beauty, our necessary selfdom out of which we make living judgments. Naturally, the machines were
destroyed."

"Lord, I still resent the fact that you welcome this. . ."
"Moneo! Hwi reassures me merely by her presence. For the first time in centuries, I am not lonely unless she is away from my side. If I had no other proof of the emotion, this would serve."
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Postby Freakzilla » 15 Jan 2009 14:13

We've brought up the "machine attitude" quote many many times, they have no clue what that means.

:?
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