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    OK I want to hear them.

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    OK I want to hear them.

    Postby zacher2005 » 10 Mar 2011 11:24

    I want to read the legit responces BH and KJA has to most of the complaints that are given toward their books. I am starting to see what you all are saying, and yes I will still read their books I haven't yet because I like to get first hand experience. The reason for this is because I liek to see both side of an argument.
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    Re: OK I want to hear them.

    Postby zacher2005 » 10 Mar 2011 11:37

    Baraka Bryan wrote:their responses typically fall into one of these two buckets:

    1. the changes we make were in the notes
    2. you're a hater


    whether these are legitimate or not (you know my view, I'll leave you to make up your own mind on it) these are the typical responses we hear.

    the problem:
    1. they haven't shown evidence of the notes existence, the stories they tell about the notes all contradict each other, and even if notes existed, notes aren't finished product... they're brainstorms, not fully contrived ideas.
    2. this is their response when they're either proven wrong, or the criticisms lodged are against style rather than content. he'll also claim that we're a minority and most people love the books, but evidence online at least is that KJA is loathed by all die-hard fans of the universes he's written in. He has fanboys, but from what I've seen, they're the minority.





    I hope that one day maybe all of Frank's notes are released or something to the extent, or even that they allow different authors to take a crack at Dune novels.
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    Re: OK I want to hear them.

    Postby SandChigger » 10 Mar 2011 12:10

    More often than not of late, they don't bother to respond at all.

    Or at least KJA doesn't. The only time we hear shit from Brian Herbert is when they drag him out of the mothballs for a book tour, put his batteries back in and turn him on. Sort of. (Here we are in the midst of the greatest revolution in communication technology in human history and the technophobe Luddite has "philosophical reservations"?! WTF?)

    Kevin J. Anderson is a coward. He won't face us directly but instead tries to shut us up or have us banned wherever and whenever he can. And then because he's such a "professional", he slips in little digs in the writing.

    Or adds stuff on the sly when they put out the paperback version to "correct" a problem. (One case that we know of for certain, in Sandworms [Edit: correction: Hunters —SC].)
    Last edited by SandChigger on 10 Mar 2011 13:11, edited 1 time in total.
    I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

    I don't like every writer's style; for instance, I have never been able to get through Ursula LeGuin, China Mieville, or Iain Banks, all of whom are critical darlings. —KJA

    I...had written a bunch of Star Wars and X-Files books...that proved not just that I'm a hack, but that I could write in somebody else's universe... —KJA
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    Re: OK I want to hear them.

    Postby Ampoliros » 10 Mar 2011 12:15

    Don't forget:"Who would know better what Frank Herbert intended to do with Dune than his own son?"

    I still think my favorite is the claim that because they own the copyright the new books are Canon.
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    Re: OK I want to hear them.

    Postby zacher2005 » 10 Mar 2011 12:21

    SandChigger wrote:More often than not of late, they don't bother to respond at all.

    Or at least KJA doesn't. The only time we hear shit from Brian Herbert is when they drag him out of the mothballs for a book tour, put his batteries back in and turn him on. Sort of. (Here we are in the midst of the greatest revolution in communication technology in human history and the technophobe Luddite has "philosophical reservations"?! WTF?)

    Kevin J. Anderson is a coward. He won't face us directly but instead tries to shut us up or have us banned wherever and whenever he can. And then because he's such a "professional", he slips in little digs in the writing.

    Or adds stuff on the sly when they put out the paperback version to "correct" a problem. (One case that we know of for certain, in Sandworms.)



    What type of stuff did they try to slip in on the paperback versions of books?
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    Re: OK I want to hear them.

    Postby SandChigger » 10 Mar 2011 13:08

    Sorry, I wrote Sandworms above, but it was actually the Hunters paperback.

    They added two paragraphs or so of new text to make it look like Duncan really was aware of Teg's superspeed, which we'd complained about everyone apparently being ignorant of. The hardcover version read like this (p.80 in US hardcover/p.89 in the US ppbk):

    Teg's expression did not change. Lack of control was not one of the Bashar's weak points. "You seemed distracted, so I took advantage of it."

    As he looked at the young man before him, sweat dripping down his brow, Duncan saw a strangely doubled image. As an old man, the original Bashar had raised and trained the Duncan ghola child; later, after Teg's death on Rakis, the mature Duncan Idaho ghola had raised the reborn boy. Was this to be an endless cycle? Duncan Idaho and Miles Teg as eternal companions, alternating as mentor and student, each filling the same role at separate times in their lives?

    In the paperback, it's different:
    Teg's expression did not change. Lack of control was not one of the Bashar's weak points. "You seemed distracted, so I took advantage of it."

    Duncan narrowed his eyes. "Good, I prefer for you to use your skill like that. But couldn't you just accelerate yourself, disarm me in the blink of an eye? Not all of us have forgotten what you can do."

    Teg seemed briefly alarmed. "What I could do. If you only knew how that drained the old Bashar, and I'm just a ghola of him. I don't know how much my body can handle." He looked away, as if in embarrassment. "I would rather not remind the Sisters of it. You and Sheeana saw me once, but I doubt any of the others aboard this ship know. If Garimi ... well, you know how terrified some of them get when any male shows unexpected abilities. It wouldn't be safe for me."


    As he looked at the young man before him, sweat dripping down his brow, Duncan saw a strangely doubled image. As an old man, the original Bashar had raised and trained the Duncan ghola child; later, after Teg's death on Rakis, the mature Duncan Idaho ghola had raised the reborn boy. Was this to be an endless cycle? Duncan Idaho and Miles Teg as eternal companions, alternating as mentor and student, each filling the same role at separate times in their lives?

    IIRC they claimed that it was text that got left out during the copy editing process, blah blah blah. Kinda odd that something addressing a specific complaint made about the hardcover should have been accidently left out of it, huh? ;)

    The guy who found that addition (Poey on DN) said he thought he'd seen another addition, but I've never been able to find it. So far as I know, noone has had the fortitude to go through every edition and make sure they haven't been up to other bullshit in them as well.

    Of course, as far as KJA is concerned, now that all of Dune is in-universe text, he doesn't have to justify anything. It's all in-universe narrative and therefore subject to the knowledge/ignorance and truthfulness of the in-universe writer.

    It's all about the writer, after all. Or storyteller, as KJA seems to prefer.
    I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

    I don't like every writer's style; for instance, I have never been able to get through Ursula LeGuin, China Mieville, or Iain Banks, all of whom are critical darlings. —KJA

    I...had written a bunch of Star Wars and X-Files books...that proved not just that I'm a hack, but that I could write in somebody else's universe... —KJA
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    Re: OK I want to hear them.

    Postby kindjal » 29 Dec 2012 08:18

    For what i know KJA is under cause from Lucasarts.
    Because they don't like the stuff he made in the SW books.
    I don't know if this information is real or not.
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    Re: OK I want to hear them.

    Postby lotek » 29 Dec 2012 10:26

    Ampoliros wrote:Don't forget:"Who would know better what Frank Herbert intended to do with Dune than his own son?"


    That's my favourite one.
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    Re: OK I want to hear them.

    Postby Ampoliros » 29 Dec 2012 13:47

    Since this thread has been bumped, I'll mention the vineyards from Hellhole, in which I got a response through the :dance: ... grapevine... :roll:


    Basically KJA responded that I "obviously hadn't read the book".

    Since I was directly quoting something that was true in one place and NOT true in another: All the plants have to be grown in heavily shielded and filtered hydroponics since the native life was inherintly hostile and parasitic, AND the storms basically shred/scorch everything in their path. People have to live in bunker style buildings or shielded buildings to protect from the storms.

    However the "rolling hillside covered in vast grapevines" only gets covered in Alkaline dust which has to be carefully blasted off with giant water guns. Apparently it is immune to both the native life and the storms which "scorch" and "gouge" the ground.
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    Re: OK I want to hear them.

    Postby Robspierre » 30 Dec 2012 22:57

    Ampoliros wrote:Since this thread has been bumped, I'll mention the vineyards from Hellhole, in which I got a response through the :dance: ... grapevine... :roll:


    Basically KJA responded that I "obviously hadn't read the book".

    Since I was directly quoting something that was true in one place and NOT true in another: All the plants have to be grown in heavily shielded and filtered hydroponics since the native life was inherintly hostile and parasitic, AND the storms basically shred/scorch everything in their path. People have to live in bunker style buildings or shielded buildings to protect from the storms.

    However the "rolling hillside covered in vast grapevines" only gets covered in Alkaline dust which has to be carefully blasted off with giant water guns. Apparently it is immune to both the native life and the storms which "scorch" and "gouge" the ground.




    That was a classic thread on Amazon. The idiots couldn't figure out why the specific grapes mentioned were incapable of surviving the conditions described. Ol' Jizzy himself got worked up over that one.

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    Re: OK I want to hear them.

    Postby D Pope » 31 Dec 2012 15:13

    Robspierre wrote:
    Ampoliros wrote:Since this thread has been bumped, I'll mention the vineyards from Hellhole, in which I got a response through the :dance: ... grapevine... :roll:


    Basically KJA responded that I "obviously hadn't read the book".

    Since I was directly quoting something that was true in one place and NOT true in another: All the plants have to be grown in heavily shielded and filtered hydroponics since the native life was inherintly hostile and parasitic, AND the storms basically shred/scorch everything in their path. People have to live in bunker style buildings or shielded buildings to protect from the storms.

    However the "rolling hillside covered in vast grapevines" only gets covered in Alkaline dust which has to be carefully blasted off with giant water guns. Apparently it is immune to both the native life and the storms which "scorch" and "gouge" the ground.




    That was a classic thread on Amazon. The idiots couldn't figure out why the specific grapes mentioned were incapable of surviving the conditions described. Ol' Jizzy himself got worked up over that one.

    Rob

    If anyone can find it, please post a link.
    I can't find it anywhere.
    Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
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    Re: OK I want to hear them.

    Postby Serkanner » 31 Dec 2012 15:37

    D Pope wrote:
    Robspierre wrote:
    Ampoliros wrote:Since this thread has been bumped, I'll mention the vineyards from Hellhole, in which I got a response through the :dance: ... grapevine... :roll:


    Basically KJA responded that I "obviously hadn't read the book".

    Since I was directly quoting something that was true in one place and NOT true in another: All the plants have to be grown in heavily shielded and filtered hydroponics since the native life was inherintly hostile and parasitic, AND the storms basically shred/scorch everything in their path. People have to live in bunker style buildings or shielded buildings to protect from the storms.

    However the "rolling hillside covered in vast grapevines" only gets covered in Alkaline dust which has to be carefully blasted off with giant water guns. Apparently it is immune to both the native life and the storms which "scorch" and "gouge" the ground.




    That was a classic thread on Amazon. The idiots couldn't figure out why the specific grapes mentioned were incapable of surviving the conditions described. Ol' Jizzy himself got worked up over that one.

    Rob


    If anyone can find it, please post a link.
    I can't find it anywhere.


    It should be here: LINK!
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    Re: OK I want to hear them.

    Postby Robspierre » 31 Dec 2012 23:29

    It's th " Please rationalise this for me" thread.

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    Re: OK I want to hear them.

    Postby D Pope » 01 Jan 2013 15:33

    You're right! That's some amazing stuff!
    :lol: :clap: 8)



    i miss HBJ.
    Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
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    Re: OK I want to hear them.

    Postby D Pope » 01 Jan 2013 15:48

    Brian Herbert wrote:There was a group on the Internet before House Atreides was published -- that
    was our first novel that came out in 1999 -- and there was a hue and cry before
    that book was published asserting that we should not write a new novel in the
    series. Later, after they read the first novel, many of them actually apologized to
    us in writing. So we appreciate that. And I understand the fans that feel... I guess
    "an interest" in the series. They don't have a legal interest in it, but they have a
    stake in it of sorts,
    in that they love the stories, they love the universe, they love
    what my dad set up. But I try to write for the most demanding of fans. Kevin does
    too.
    Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
    -Omphalos
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    Re: OK I want to hear them.

    Postby lotek » 02 Jan 2013 10:28

    Every sentence tops the previous in bulshitness...
    Spice is the worm's gonads.
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    Re: OK I want to hear them.

    Postby Nekhrun » 02 Jan 2013 10:29

    D Pope wrote:
    Brian Herbert wrote:There was a group on the Internet before House Atreides was published -- that
    was our first novel that came out in 1999 -- and there was a hue and cry before
    that book was published asserting that we should not write a new novel in the
    series. Later, after they read the first novel, many of them actually apologized to
    us in writing. So we appreciate that. And I understand the fans that feel... I guess
    "an interest" in the series. They don't have a legal interest in it, but they have a
    stake in it of sorts,
    in that they love the stories, they love the universe, they love
    what my dad set up. But I try to write for the most demanding of fans. Kevin does
    too.

    He forgot to add: ZING!
    "If he was here to discuss Dune, he sure as hell picked a dumb way to do it." -Omphalos :character-cookiemonster:

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    Re: OK I want to hear them.

    Postby lotek » 02 Jan 2013 11:00

    D Pope wrote: But I try to write for the most demanding of fans. Kevin does
    too.


    thekev does the most demanding of fans.
    He's always been the greedy one.
    Spice is the worm's gonads.
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    Re: OK I want to hear them.

    Postby D Pope » 02 Jan 2013 14:42

    Kevin J. Anderson: Well, I've dealt with a lot of rabid fans, especially with Star Wars and X-Files,
    and it's really creepy to deal with people who know more about my stuff than I do sometimes.
    I'm writing the books that [Brian and I] really know how to do
    .

    Said in the same breath.
    Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
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    Re: OK I want to hear them.

    Postby D Pope » 02 Jan 2013 14:59

    kja wrote:Anyone who keeps reading the novels for the sole purpose of attacking them just has an axe to grind and is clearly biased.
    <earlier>
    And when somebody posts with great vehemence how much they hated book after book after book, how can you take them seriously?

    ...soooo, inconsistency more accurately indicates sincerity?
    Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
    -Omphalos
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    Re: OK I want to hear them.

    Postby D Pope » 02 Jan 2013 16:36

    http://storiesbywilliams.com/2011/12/06 ... seriously/
    kja wrote: I wish they would stop reading Dune books or at the very least suffer
    from a head injury
    that would make them forget that Dune even existed.


    “Again, thanks for giving the novels a chance, whether or not you liked all of them.
    Regarding your issues with Face Dancers and the remnants of the Butlerian Jihad,
    that was tied together in the books and detailed in Erasmus’s experiments to create
    the Face Dancers. It’s not my call whether or not you found the explanation or the
    resolution satisfying, but it’s not inconsistent with the series as a whole.”
    Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
    -Omphalos
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    Re: OK I want to hear them.

    Postby D Pope » 02 Jan 2013 16:51

    http://tau.solahpmo.com/viewtopic.php?f=622&t=1438
    July 1999
    How much of the prequel is based on Frank Herbert's notes?
    A lot of the ideas were original, but some were taken from the existing material. We knew some of the major
    points to go to but we didn't know the exact route to take.

    It was like a treasure trove for us to find all those notes. We're drawing on scenes and notes and quotes that
    have never been published. Especially now that we have the outline for the last Dune novel he intended to write,
    he ties the last story together with the first one and ties up a lot of little loose threads.



    Do you plan to work together on completing Dune 7?
    We do have plans but they're not crystallized. We have plans and notes for probably 10 more books.
    What exact order we write those in or whether we even write them at all--that will be decided on a book by book basis.
    The Butlerian Jihad will probably be the next.

    By doing this original prequel trilogy, we're hoping to reawaken interest in all of Frank Herbert's Dune novels.
    There are so many things we need to set up in the Butlerian Jihad timeframe--things that tie directly into Dune 7.

    In true Frank Herbert fashion, we are looking at a genuine long term plan. Because all of this is about a giant saga,
    it's good for us to be thinking about all of this, so maybe we'll be planting seeds.



    How do you think readers will respond to the new book?
    The readers will have to decide. We're aware that some of them have to be skeptical as to how we can put on
    such giant shoes, but between Brian and I we're sticking two feet into each one. I'm thrilled for the opportunity
    to write a book in my favorite science fiction universe. I hope to be able to play in the sandbox for a while longer.
    Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
    -Omphalos
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    Re: OK I want to hear them.

    Postby D Pope » 03 Jan 2013 13:37

    THE most recurring theme in responding to 'talifans' is their repeated claim that they've gotten letters from people who had trashed nuDune before it was written.
    I can't count how many interviews and articles I've read looking for unenlightened detractors. I'm forced to conclude that, like so many other things with these two,
    it's a lie. If it's not a complete fabrication then it's so inflated as to make no difference.

    Brian's upset that the world doesn't love him and keith does not like muggles pointing out his mistakes. Both hide behind the idea that Franks works are theirs
    to do with ("...not a legal interest...") as they please.
    Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
    -Omphalos
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    Re: OK I want to hear them.

    Postby Freakzilla » 03 Jan 2013 14:29

    Is alt.fan.dune still around?
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