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    The precursor to the Butlerian Jihad?

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    The precursor to the Butlerian Jihad?

    Postby Crysknife » 21 Feb 2012 15:26

    Came across this story by E. M. Forster called "the Machine stops" written in 1909. While I can't find anything overtly suggesting it influenced Herbert about the danger of machines, I did find that Samuel Butler was an influence on Forster. Interesting suggestion of worms as defense mechanisms as well in the story. Free download of the short story below the little excerpt:

    "oh, tomorrow--some fool will start the machine again, tomorrow."

    "Never," Said Kumo,"never. Humanity has learnt its lesson."

    http://www.manybooks.net/titles/forster ... stops.html

    Kind of cool....and much more like Frank's version of the B jihad or the type of events that might have lead us to the jihad. I know some of you know Forster, what are your thoughts?
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    Re: The precursor to the Butlerian Jihad?

    Postby Omphalos » 21 Feb 2012 17:08

    Crysknife wrote:Came across this story by E. M. Forster called "the Machine stops" written in 1909. While I can't find anything overtly suggesting it influenced Herbert about the danger of machines, I did find that Samuel Butler was an influence on Forster. Interesting suggestion of worms as defense mechanisms as well in the story. Free download of the short story below the little excerpt:

    "oh, tomorrow--some fool will start the machine again, tomorrow."

    "Never," Said Kumo,"never. Humanity has learnt its lesson."

    http://www.manybooks.net/titles/forster ... stops.html

    Kind of cool....and much more like Frank's version of the B jihad or the type of events that might have lead us to the jihad. I know some of you know Forster, what are your thoughts?


    I always took the main message of The Machine Stops to be about the folly of putting your trust into machines then forgetting how to fix them, not so much as a story where one man uses machines to enslave another. Although, I grant you that there is some comparison because the people allowed themselves to become so dependent on machines in the first place that they were unable to function on their own. But the story was more about humanity lulling itself into a false sense of security.
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    Re: The precursor to the Butlerian Jihad?

    Postby Crysknife » 21 Feb 2012 19:01

    Omphalos wrote:
    Crysknife wrote:Came across this story by E. M. Forster called "the Machine stops" written in 1909. While I can't find anything overtly suggesting it influenced Herbert about the danger of machines, I did find that Samuel Butler was an influence on Forster. Interesting suggestion of worms as defense mechanisms as well in the story. Free download of the short story below the little excerpt:

    "oh, tomorrow--some fool will start the machine again, tomorrow."

    "Never," Said Kumo,"never. Humanity has learnt its lesson."

    http://www.manybooks.net/titles/forster ... stops.html

    Kind of cool....and much more like Frank's version of the B jihad or the type of events that might have lead us to the jihad. I know some of you know Forster, what are your thoughts?


    I always took the main message of The Machine Stops to be about the folly of putting your trust into machines then forgetting how to fix them, not so much as a story where one man uses machines to enslave another. Although, I grant you that there is some comparison because the people allowed themselves to become so dependent on machines in the first place that they were unable to function on their own. But the story was more about humanity lulling itself into a false sense of security.


    Agreed, Omph. But Frank did have that as an outcome.....Humanity would become extinct from the weakness that would befall us had we given everything up to machines, by either not knowing what to do when the machines failed, or by the machines running amok(another type of failure), likely a combination of both!.......not killing us of their own devise and volition. In this story there is no other faction to take control, but had there been it would have been an easy matter.

    It's just freaking sad what new readers get saturated with on these points when it comes to the new books and their childish ideas. They get nothing in depth and complex like these old master works.
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    Re: The precursor to the Butlerian Jihad?

    Postby trang » 21 Feb 2012 19:50

    I will download and read the story. the idea of becoming complacent and forgetting how to fix the machines was used in one or the other of the matrix sequels. The one senator talks to Neo in the lower levels about the machines.

    I maybe misunderstand the BJIAD, but it wasnt the machines themselves was it? it was the other humans who used the Machines to control and enslave the other complacent humans? Those chose to fight back, with the war cry of destroying all machines, and thusly ending the rule of those who were using them?

    thus Human against Human, not Human against machine.
    "Long Live the Fighters", "Dragon.....the other white meat."

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    "Once men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
    But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.."
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    Re: The precursor to the Butlerian Jihad?

    Postby Omphalos » 21 Feb 2012 20:48

    Crysknife wrote:
    Omphalos wrote:
    Crysknife wrote:Came across this story by E. M. Forster called "the Machine stops" written in 1909. While I can't find anything overtly suggesting it influenced Herbert about the danger of machines, I did find that Samuel Butler was an influence on Forster. Interesting suggestion of worms as defense mechanisms as well in the story. Free download of the short story below the little excerpt:

    "oh, tomorrow--some fool will start the machine again, tomorrow."

    "Never," Said Kumo,"never. Humanity has learnt its lesson."

    http://www.manybooks.net/titles/forster ... stops.html

    Kind of cool....and much more like Frank's version of the B jihad or the type of events that might have lead us to the jihad. I know some of you know Forster, what are your thoughts?


    I always took the main message of The Machine Stops to be about the folly of putting your trust into machines then forgetting how to fix them, not so much as a story where one man uses machines to enslave another. Although, I grant you that there is some comparison because the people allowed themselves to become so dependent on machines in the first place that they were unable to function on their own. But the story was more about humanity lulling itself into a false sense of security.


    Agreed, Omph. But Frank did have that as an outcome.....Humanity would become extinct from the weakness that would befall us had we given everything up to machines, by either not knowing what to do when the machines failed, or by the machines running amok(another type of failure), likely a combination of both!.......not killing us of their own devise and volition. In this story there is no other faction to take control, but had there been it would have been an easy matter.

    It's just freaking sad what new readers get saturated with on these points when it comes to the new books and their childish ideas. They get nothing in depth and complex like these old master works.


    You know, it's been a while since I read The Machine Stops, but weren't the brains-in-jars the good guys in that story? :wink:
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    Re: The precursor to the Butlerian Jihad?

    Postby trang » 26 Feb 2012 13:29

    Just finished reading the story, Didn't read about any brains in jars in this one. Its a decent story, little thick at times ( the descriptions, words chosen, structure) but I view that in the context of the time it was written.

    Many stories popped into my head (logan's run, matrix, Battlestar galactica, etc) all derivatives of this for sure, but cool anyway.

    The faction to take over was the homeless above I thought as Kuno stated, maybe he was dreaming or hallucinating when on the surface, don't know for sure. If there was no one above and only below, then humanity killed itself by not having any options besides the machine. That seems a little contrary to our nature, we are an ever-seeking options people. Extrapolation being difficult, not knowing why they went below ground? not knowing why the surface went dead? why the air above was bad ( or was it? ) It would seem the options to hand down how to work the machine would be a continued ritual, and return to the earth above would have been in the plan all along. Kuno "Awakening" his mind and muscles to the natural adventurer spirit is a testament to that, and would seem to have come along naturally before him, who knows.

    Good story and definitely makes ya think.
    "Long Live the Fighters", "Dragon.....the other white meat."

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    "Once men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
    But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.."
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    Re: The precursor to the Butlerian Jihad?

    Postby inhuien » 27 Feb 2012 11:03

    Thanks Crysknife.
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