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    Why so late?

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      The Great Revolt

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    Re: Why so late?

    Postby Lundse » 25 Jun 2009 16:53

    No. It can be interpreted as an idea, like this:
    Frank Herbert, in GEoD]"The target of the Jihad was a machine-attitude as much as the machines," Leto said. "Humans had set those machines to usurp our sense of beauty, our necessary selfdom out of which we make living judgments. Naturally, the machines were destroyed."[/quote]

    And these thinking machines – intelligent like a human sat there and said “yes, I can see now, destroying me is the only way”. I think that it is entirely plausible to think that they fought back, or even enslaved humanity.

    Yes. It is plausible there were some autonomous machines, and that they fought back. It is also plausible that a lot of humans did not want to get rid of the machines, and fought alongside machines against the Jihadists. This has zero relevance!
    You are the one saying that the above statement fits with machine aggression and torturing robots. And now you are defending a completely different scenario. Why?

    -

    Why the bloody hell would Frank, who was not retarded, write about an evil AI killing off humanity as "machine-logic was overthrown". Was he including deliberately obtruse prose on a drunken bet?

    Part of your problem with whole line of argument is that you surmise that Frank already knew what was going to be written in the future, and should have written his books more in line with that train of thought.

    It is not a fucking problem with my argument, that I assume Frank knew what he meant! It is you who are assuming that Frank meant nothing, or was deliberately vague only so that he could one day change his mind and write a Terminator-cross-over which is the problem here.
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    Re: Why so late?

    Postby GamePlayer » 25 Jun 2009 16:53

    redbugpest wrote:Thank you for illistrating my point.


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    Re: Why so late?

    Postby Lundse » 25 Jun 2009 16:57

    redbugpest wrote:[quote="redbugpest wrote:JIHAD, BUTLERIAN: (see also Great Revolt) -- the crusade against computers, thinking machines, and conscious robots begun in 201 B.G. and concluded in 108 B.G. Its chief commandment remains in the O.C. Bible as "Thou shalt not make a machine in the likeness of a human mind."

    Hmmmm – Thinking machines and conscious robots – crusade – sounds like an argument for the legends series!

    Crusade is religious. Would you kindly read the damn things?
    It has a commandment after it.

    Can you see how this is a religion-thing? That the proscription is motivated by religious feelings and philosophy, according to Frank writings?

    It was "against" them. Not in response to their attempt to wipe us out.

    No

    O.C. bible reference – religious, Jihad, and Crusade – references to religious of fanatical conflicts, Great Revolt – Revolts do not have to be religious in nature, but do tend to be a vehicle used to throw off the yolk of oppression.
    The Crusade against the Cathars was a crusade against a philosophy that took the form of a violent slaughter. Wars are fought over philosophies all the time.



    OK, you fucked this one up so much I am not going to fix the formatting.

    But the last part seems to suggest you believe the Jihad was not religious.

    "Wars are fought over philosophies all the time".
    Yes. I know. That is my point! That this was an instance of exactly that! Which is why Frank used words for the war which suggested something fought over values and made changes to peoples thinking.
    Jihad, Crusade, Revolt. They all suggest this was not some territorial war, or a war for survival (!). It was a war over ways of thinking. Machine-logic was overthrown, for crying out loud. Do you really need the ghost of Frank Herbert yelling in your ear?
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    Re: Why so late?

    Postby Freakzilla » 25 Jun 2009 19:25

    Lundse wrote:Do you really need the ghost of Frank Herbert yelling in your ear?


    It's begining to seem that way.
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    Re: Why so late?

    Postby TheDukester » 25 Jun 2009 19:51

    redbugpest wrote:Thank you for illistrating my point.

    You're more than welcome. And thank you for illustrating mine.
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    Re: Why so late?

    Postby Crysknife » 26 Jun 2009 00:16

    Wow, I guess I'm late!

    Just a few points to add...

    Leto was never protecting us from machines. He was protecting us from our own destructive tendencies. The whole point of the Scattering was to get us beyond a point where we couldn't destroy ourselves. Machines would have only been the tools used for our destruction....but they would have been tools non-the-less and not evil killing machines that decided one day to kill us based on their own decisions.

    We already know the HM destroyed libraries that held vast knowledge of the Butlerian Jihad times, and then brush it off like it was information that wasn't deemed even slightly important. Does this sound like women running from machines who might want to see how we defeated Omnius in the past? They came to find an answer to a problem...something they were running from out in the Scattering. If they didn't remember what that was then why were they even looking for a solution? Therefore, it couldn't have been machines because they actively destroyed information that could have helped them, and they always knew what they were running from.

    Ix was mostly sparred during the time of the B Jihad. Does that even remotely make sense to you if Omnius had been real? Would any empire leave a planet like Ix alone after almost being wiped out by Omnius? Nah, more like the fervor died down by the time it reached Ix....the religious and philosophical fervor that is. Not the fervor of running from the Terminator.
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    Re: Why so late?

    Postby Crysknife » 26 Jun 2009 00:44

    Ok 'Pest, I've read through the thread(kill me now) and I get the feeing that you think the Ixians couldn't build AI during the time of Leto. I beg to differ. Even the BG had AI throughout the whole series. In Heretics and Chapterhouse the universe seems lousy with it....they are everywhere. The HM have servos, the returned Ixians have T-probes that can actually simulate a human mind perfectly......yet we don't see another Omnius anywhere! How can that be?! It just doesn't make sense that a machine can be built in the likeness of our minds and not want to kill us!

    But then you go on to say that Leto allowed them to build AI(the Navigation machines must have AI, and prescience perhaps) so that we had the tools to defeat Omnius in the future in some cosmic battle that only he could see with prescience. So we have AI to fight AI, right? Well damn, it all makes sense now. We just need to build another Omnius to kill Omnius, and then maybe another Omnius after that to destroy the new Omnius. :crazy:

    Oh, that's right. We have Duncan and Erasmus to stop the madness.

    Whatever, dude.
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    Re: Why so late?

    Postby Freakzilla » 26 Jun 2009 16:03

    Whatever Leto saw doesn't matter since they say he was wrong. Besides, Leto said he never used his prescience to see what happened after his death except to make sure the Golden Path continued. He wouldn't have allowed himself to be killed if wasn't sure the GP continued.

    It is my theory that as the GP suceeded into the future, Leto's prescience would have dimmed to nothing as the Siona Gene proliferated anyway. So his own success denied him a vision of it.

    Englobement against no-ships is futile. Human history extends beyond it. Winner = Leto.
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    Re: Why so late?

    Postby SandChigger » 26 Jun 2009 19:22

    Plus don't forget the boredom factor. ;)
    I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

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    Re: Why so late?

    Postby Crysknife » 30 Jun 2009 21:01

    Man, where'd this fool go? I was looking forward to this.
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    Re: Why so late?

    Postby SandChigger » 30 Jun 2009 21:43

    He said he'd be back soon.

    That was about four hours ago. Real Life interference. ;)
    I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

    I don't like every writer's style; for instance, I have never been able to get through Ursula LeGuin, China Mieville, or Iain Banks, all of whom are critical darlings. —KJA

    I...had written a bunch of Star Wars and X-Files books...that proved not just that I'm a hack, but that I could write in somebody else's universe... —KJA
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    Re: Why so late?

    Postby Rakis » 30 Jun 2009 23:48

    KJA won't allow him...

    Seriously...He realized that some people around here are actually Dune scholar and serious about Dune, not just a board for trolls, so he must be thinking twice about posting here in the future or he will have his ass handed to him - again...
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    Re: Why so late?

    Postby SandChigger » 01 Jul 2009 00:05

    Nah, KJA is a boundless wellspring of fluid shit (think tubgirl; ain't that a picture? ;) ).

    'Pestie will drink deep of the flood and come here to spew.

    I have faith in that much. :lol:
    I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

    I don't like every writer's style; for instance, I have never been able to get through Ursula LeGuin, China Mieville, or Iain Banks, all of whom are critical darlings. —KJA

    I...had written a bunch of Star Wars and X-Files books...that proved not just that I'm a hack, but that I could write in somebody else's universe... —KJA
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    Re: Why so late?

    Postby Rakis » 01 Jul 2009 00:08

    SandChigger wrote:Nah, KJA is a boundless wellspring of fluid shit (think tubgirl; ain't that a picture? ;) ).

    'Pestie will drink deep of the flood and come here to spew.


    I don't wanna know what they do to each other... :puke: :wink:
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    Re: Why so late?

    Postby inhuien » 01 Jul 2009 10:42

    Rakis wrote:
    SandChigger wrote:Nah, KJA is a boundless wellspring of fluid shit (think tubgirl; ain't that a picture? ;) ).

    'Pestie will drink deep of the flood and come here to spew.


    I don't wanna know what they do to each other... :puke: :wink:

    But now you do and you'll just have to live with it.
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    Re: Why so late?

    Postby Rakis » 01 Jul 2009 22:42

    inhuien wrote:
    Rakis wrote:
    SandChigger wrote:Nah, KJA is a boundless wellspring of fluid shit (think tubgirl; ain't that a picture? ;) ).

    'Pestie will drink deep of the flood and come here to spew.


    I don't wanna know what they do to each other... :puke: :wink:

    But now you do and you'll just have to live with it.


    Nah...Conway does, not me... :)
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    Re: Why so late?

    Postby Idahopotato » 08 Oct 2009 15:28

    I am a little late to the party, but I haven't seem this point mentioned yet. I think we can all agree that Frank Herbert was not your average run of the mill science fiction writer that would use robots and killing machines as major plot devices. Rather, he was keen on social commentary mostly pertaining to the human condition. Now if we take the time frame in which Dune was written into consideration, we see that the mass atomization of the working class was in full swing. I tend to believe that the BJ was a result of the majority of mankind's labor being taken over completely by machine labor controlled by a select few upper class people. The revolt, which mirrors in many ways all previous rebellions in our history, would be against those people that had stripped the livelihood away from the working class. At least this is how I always interpreted the BJ. To reinforce this belief, you never see anywhere in the books anything being manufactured solely by machines. Even spice harvesters are run and operated by large crews of people. I certainly never envisioned a world run by computers and cyborgs exterminating humans for the hell of it.
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    Re: Why so late?

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 08 Oct 2009 15:47

    Welcome. That's not a bad interpretation at all, certainly fits into FH's statment that it was against the machine mentality as much as the machines. I would argue that the BJ was against a mechanization much much further along than what you describe, but my imagination of it certainly doesn't conflict with yours fundamentally.
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    Re: Why so late?

    Postby Idahopotato » 08 Oct 2009 16:52

    No I agree. I imagine what I said, but times thousands of years, so really I can't quite imagine it completely, as it would be almost impossible for me to imagine society and the relation to the labor process that many years ahead of time. I can only go with what I know from my own personal experience and try to relate it to what is written by Herbert. That is one of the reasons I grew up loving the Dune series. Nothing was spoon fed to you. You really were forced to use your imagination coupled with your real life experiences all within the an amazing universe.
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    Re: Why so late?

    Postby SandChigger » 09 Oct 2009 04:31

    Idahopotato wrote:I am a little late to the party...

    Marhaba! :)

    I think we can all agree that Frank Herbert was not your average run of the mill science fiction writer that would use robots and killing machines as major plot devices. Rather, he was keen on social commentary mostly pertaining to the human condition.

    We can indeed agree on these.

    Now if we take the time frame in which Dune was written into consideration, we see that the mass atomization of the working class was in full swing. I tend to believe that the BJ was a result of the majority of mankind's labor being taken over completely by machine labor controlled by a select few upper class people. The revolt, which mirrors in many ways all previous rebellions in our history, would be against those people that had stripped the livelihood away from the working class. At least this is how I always interpreted the BJ.

    I imagine the Jihad as having a wide range of causes, on a wide variety of worlds. (I would be quite sad to see it everywhere reduced to just some sort of class struggle.)

    There were somewhat less than 13,500 worlds in the Landsraad (which had been in existence itself for about 2,000 years) at the time of the Butlerian Jihad, but there may well have been a periphery of less important/less populated/more recently settled planets numbering anywhere from several hundred to several thousand. The entire Empire/human space no doubt consisted of something closer to the lower end of 15,000 to 20,000 planets. The very oldest of these would have been settled for well over 10,000 years ... with histories longer even than our own at this point. Even with the homogenizing effect of whatever rapid transportation method had allowed the creation of an empire and necessitated a body like the Landsraad (two millennia or so earlier?), I imagine there still remained a diversity of planetary social and governmental systems, with varying degrees of integration of automation using machines, computers & AI. I don't see a "one size fits all revolt" as being particularly plausible or, frankly, very interesting.

    But the important thing is that, for whatever reasons, there was enough hate/fear/resentment/"philosophical reservation" with respect to "computers, thinking machines, and conscious robots"—and toward the people who used and controlled (and sided with?) them—across the Empire to make it a powder keg just waiting for a spark. What that spark was, FH didn't tell us. (I personally find both fanfic versions of "Oh Miss Jehane/Serena, I done ABORTED/DROPT da baby!" fairly boring and prefer to imagine no brave-titted heroines with a B-initial last name but instead that some post-Jihad historian, still familiar with Erewhon even after the library databases were smashed [by Phaedrus and friends? :P ], applied the epithet "Butlerian." ;) ) As Thing pointed out, the Jihad was a war against the "machine mentality as much as against the machines."

    To reinforce this belief, you never see anywhere in the books anything being manufactured solely by machines. Even spice harvesters are run and operated by large crews of people.

    True, but isn't this simply a result of the books being set in the universe after the Jihad, with the (for the most part) enduring injunction against AI? (And we also never do travel to Ix or Richesse in the books. ;) )

    I certainly never envisioned a world run by computers and cyborgs exterminating humans for the hell of it.

    No one with any brains or imagination did. That "vision" requires a particularly severe paucity of both. ;)

    No I agree. I imagine what I said, but times thousands of years, so really I can't quite imagine it completely, as it would be almost impossible for me to imagine society and the relation to the labor process that many years ahead of time. I can only go with what I know from my own personal experience and try to relate it to what is written by Herbert. That is one of the reasons I grew up loving the Dune series. Nothing was spoon fed to you. You really were forced to use your imagination coupled with your real life experiences all within the an amazing universe.

    That's the great thing about the books FH wrote: each of us can fill in the "blanks" according to our own imaginations. We don't have to agree on everything. ;)

    You have to feel sorry for the imagination-challenged who can't do it for themselves. Especially the authority suck-ups who have understood nothing and choose to rely instead on the excremental output of a talent-free (but copyright-holding!) offspring and idea-and-franchise-pirating hack.
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    Re: Why so late?

    Postby RedHeadKevin » 09 Oct 2009 10:20

    I always thought of the BJ as a sort of first-draft of the Golden Path.
    I like the Extended version of Dune's prologue explanation of the Great Revolt: "The people deteriorated into a state of apathy, and became slaves of other men with machines." Without delving into the exacty "Lexington and Concord" moment that started the War, it gave a 1 sentence synopsis. My thoughts on it were always that the people revolted against the dependence on machines, more than the machines themselves. The physical machines, robots and computers, became the targets, but the bigger attitude was that Man had to become independent once more. Without His independence from machines, why would the universe have any need for Man? The machines would eventually take over with presumably longer lifespans, tougher bodies, and faster reproduction/manufacturing. Humanity was facing its extinction, and revolted against the slavery imposed on them by machines. We had to do something, something radical, and something NOW.

    Even in 2009, I'm sure we can already see this happening. Try this: Use nothing computerized for a week. That means no internet, no checking Jacurutu.com, no email, no cell phones, no TV, no pacemakers, no ultrasound for pregnant women, no microwave, no music or video device later than tape cassettes, no GPS, no calculator, no Facebook, no stock market, no online flight booking. I'll accept that you probably have appliances that COULD function without a computer chip, like your washing machine, water heater, fridge, dishwasher, etc, so those are Kosher. Same with airplanes and cars. They COULD function without computers (but in 2009, they won't.) They could hypothetically go back to pure clockwork functioning.

    Just imagine the chaos, the mass deaths from the loss of medical equipment, the pure terror of people who forgot how to look up a phone number in a book or using a real typewriter or read a map without getting GPS directions , the disruption of financial systems, trying to get correct change at McDonalds. I'm not saying that we should have the Jihad just yet, but imagine the world of 2025 with the loss of some of these systems.


    If my example was too big to imagine, and you don't think you're a slave to The Machines, try this: Hide someone's cell phone charger sometime. Watch the reactions as their battery starts to die.
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    Re: Why so late?

    Postby Serkanner » 09 Oct 2009 10:57

    RedHeadKevin wrote:I always thought of the BJ as a sort of first-draft of the Golden Path.
    I like the Extended version of Dune's prologue explanation of the Great Revolt: "The people deteriorated into a state of apathy, and became slaves of other men with machines." Without delving into the exacty "Lexington and Concord" moment that started the War, it gave a 1 sentence synopsis. My thoughts on it were always that the people revolted against the dependence on machines, more than the machines themselves. The physical machines, robots and computers, became the targets, but the bigger attitude was that Man had to become independent once more. Without His independence from machines, why would the universe have any need for Man? The machines would eventually take over with presumably longer lifespans, tougher bodies, and faster reproduction/manufacturing. Humanity was facing its extinction, and revolted against the slavery imposed on them by machines. We had to do something, something radical, and something NOW.

    Even in 2009, I'm sure we can already see this happening. Try this: Use nothing computerized for a week. That means no internet, no checking Jacurutu.com, no email, no cell phones, no TV, no pacemakers, no ultrasound for pregnant women, no microwave, no music or video device later than tape cassettes, no GPS, no calculator, no Facebook, no stock market, no online flight booking. I'll accept that you probably have appliances that COULD function without a computer chip, like your washing machine, water heater, fridge, dishwasher, etc, so those are Kosher. Same with airplanes and cars. They COULD function without computers (but in 2009, they won't.) They could hypothetically go back to pure clockwork functioning.

    Just imagine the chaos, the mass deaths from the loss of medical equipment, the pure terror of people who forgot how to look up a phone number in a book or using a real typewriter or read a map without getting GPS directions , the disruption of financial systems, trying to get correct change at McDonalds. I'm not saying that we should have the Jihad just yet, but imagine the world of 2025 with the loss of some of these systems.


    If my example was too big to imagine, and you don't think you're a slave to The Machines, try this: Hide someone's cell phone charger sometime. Watch the reactions as their battery starts to die.



    Wow, you perfectly described the world I grew up in. Now I feel old ... :cry:
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    Re: Why so late?

    Postby Idahopotato » 09 Oct 2009 15:59

    SandChigger wrote:There were somewhat less than 13,500 worlds in the Landsraad (which had been in existence itself for about 2,000 years) at the time of the Butlerian Jihad, but there may well have been a periphery of less important/less populated/more recently settled planets numbering anywhere from several hundred to several thousand. The entire Empire/human space no doubt consisted of something closer to the lower end of 15,000 to 20,000 planets. The very oldest of these would have been settled for well over 10,000 years ... with histories longer even than our own at this point. Even with the homogenizing effect of whatever rapid transportation method had allowed the creation of an empire and necessitated a body like the Landsraad (two millennia or so earlier?), I imagine there still remained a diversity of planetary social and governmental systems, with varying degrees of integration of automation using machines, computers & AI. I don't see a "one size fits all revolt" as being particularly plausible or, frankly, very interesting.

    But the important thing is that, for whatever reasons, there was enough hate/fear/resentment/"philosophical reservation" with respect to "computers, thinking machines, and conscious robots"—and toward the people who used and controlled (and sided with?) them—across the Empire to make it a powder keg just waiting for a spark. What that spark was, FH didn't tell us. (I personally find both fanfic versions of "Oh Miss Jehane/Serena, I done ABORTED/DROPT da baby!" fairly boring and prefer to imagine no brave-titted heroines with a B-initial last name but instead that some post-Jihad historian, still familiar with Erewhon even after the library databases were smashed [by Phaedrus and friends? :P ], applied the epithet "Butlerian." ;) ) As Thing pointed out, the Jihad was a war against the "machine mentality as much as against the machines."


    You have to feel sorry for the imagination-challenged who can't do it for themselves. Especially the authority suck-ups who have understood nothing and choose to rely instead on the excremental output of a talent-free (but copyright-holding!) offspring and idea-and-franchise-pirating hack.


    Wow. And I thought I knew a lot about Dune. That was amazing. That was a very good analysis. Also, due to the vastness of the empire and the amount of time since then, and the fact that there was a transition from computers to non computers, much of the history of the BJ would have been lost. It most likely would not have even been called that at the time, as most wars are usually named or renamed well after the fact by historians.
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    Re: Why so late?

    Postby Idahopotato » 09 Oct 2009 16:06

    RedHeadKevin wrote:I always thought of the BJ as a sort of first-draft of the Golden Path.
    I like the Extended version of Dune's prologue explanation of the Great Revolt: "The people deteriorated into a state of apathy, and became slaves of other men with machines." Without delving into the exacty "Lexington and Concord" moment that started the War, it gave a 1 sentence synopsis. My thoughts on it were always that the people revolted against the dependence on machines, more than the machines themselves. The physical machines, robots and computers, became the targets, but the bigger attitude was that Man had to become independent once more. Without His independence from machines, why would the universe have any need for Man? The machines would eventually take over with presumably longer lifespans, tougher bodies, and faster reproduction/manufacturing. Humanity was facing its extinction, and revolted against the slavery imposed on them by machines. We had to do something, something radical, and something NOW.

    Even in 2009, I'm sure we can already see this happening. Try this: Use nothing computerized for a week. That means no internet, no checking Jacurutu.com, no email, no cell phones, no TV, no pacemakers, no ultrasound for pregnant women, no microwave, no music or video device later than tape cassettes, no GPS, no calculator, no Facebook, no stock market, no online flight booking. I'll accept that you probably have appliances that COULD function without a computer chip, like your washing machine, water heater, fridge, dishwasher, etc, so those are Kosher. Same with airplanes and cars. They COULD function without computers (but in 2009, they won't.) They could hypothetically go back to pure clockwork functioning.

    Just imagine the chaos, the mass deaths from the loss of medical equipment, the pure terror of people who forgot how to look up a phone number in a book or using a real typewriter or read a map without getting GPS directions , the disruption of financial systems, trying to get correct change at McDonalds. I'm not saying that we should have the Jihad just yet, but imagine the world of 2025 with the loss of some of these systems.


    If my example was too big to imagine, and you don't think you're a slave to The Machines, try this: Hide someone's cell phone charger sometime. Watch the reactions as their battery starts to die.


    I spent two weeks in Cuba this last summer. No cell phone, no computers, no internet (including Jacurutu), no GPS, perhaps a calculator but I wasn't trying to do any long division so I wouldn't know for sure, even airplanes are soviet block machines with little or no technology (certainly no technology that replicates human thought). It was not that hard of a transition for me, as 1) it was a vacation and 2) other than a computer, I am pretty low tech. I can actually read maps, which is imperative when I hunt, and would never trust my life to a GPS. I hate using a cell phone. The Ipod would be difficult to get rid of for more than two weeks, but I am pretty sure my life was not completely devoid of joy before I had one. The point is it can be done, but I can only imagine how difficult it would be for many people that have never really known a world without those things.
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    Re: Why so late?

    Postby Freakzilla » 09 Oct 2009 16:33

    I've heard that even US Army Scouts (my former job) today primarily use GPS.

    POSERS!

    Back in my day :waves cane: we use a map, compass and protractor.
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    Freakzilla
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