Why so late?

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inhuien
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Re: Why so late?

Postby inhuien » 24 Jun 2009 08:31

redbugpest wrote:
Schu wrote:Man, just because it's a nasty comment doesn't mean you're not a retard. Learn to accept your inner and outer retard, and you will be happy (but still retarded).


Ass Sch! Excuse me - I sneezed! :o

Does it make you feel good about yourself to call me names?

Does it make you feel good to be called names?
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Re: Why so late?

Postby redbugpest » 24 Jun 2009 09:06

inhuien wrote:
redbugpest wrote:
Schu wrote:Man, just because it's a nasty comment doesn't mean you're not a retard. Learn to accept your inner and outer retard, and you will be happy (but still retarded).


Ass Sch! Excuse me - I sneezed! :o

Does it make you feel good about yourself to call me names?

Does it make you feel good to be called names?


The automatic derogatory name calling is really a sign of insecurity.
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Re: Why so late?

Postby Freakzilla » 24 Jun 2009 09:08

If y'all want to call each other names, please do so in Private Messages.

:Adolf:
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Re: Why so late?

Postby Nekhrun » 24 Jun 2009 09:21

redbugpest wrote:
SandChigger wrote:It's only "plausable" because you're a fucking idiot who never understood the books any better than your lord and master KJA.


WOW - I just don't know what to say...

I just NEVER thought of it that way! I can the light now...

Don't can the light. You need it now more than ever. Our arguments on this topic are well documented so why don't you read them and respond to those instead of trolling.
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Re: Why so late?

Postby Schu » 24 Jun 2009 09:25

redbugpest wrote:
Schu wrote:Man, just because it's a nasty comment doesn't mean you're not a retard. Learn to accept your inner and outer retard, and you will be happy (but still retarded).


Ass Sch! Excuse me - I sneezed! :o

Does it make you feel good about yourself to call me names?


I felt good about myself way before you came along. No, I just do it for funsies. Also, you were begging for it, and I'm a sucker for that.

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A Thing of Eternity
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Re: Why so late?

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 24 Jun 2009 11:49

For the love of the gods, do we need to lay out all the quotes from the original Dune books which explicitly state that the Butlerian Jihad was a men vs men with machines conflict? I'm amazed this is still even debatable.

Could someone maybe link the thread where we list ALL the quotes together? I'm pretty sure we've been over this a few times.

Besides, this is far from the worst failing in the Legends series. I know many of us here find this distortion of what Frank laid out in the originals very upsetting, and I agree, but far worse is the simple poor writing in the Legends series, the internal contradictions (and the SEVERE contradictions between the Legends series and the "Dune 7" books), as well as the overwhelming list of contradictions with the original books resulting from an obvious lack of fact-checking and editing.

I'm not one for name calling, I can illustrate the extremely poor quality of the new books just fine with civil discussion. Besides, I have a feeling SC will more than pick up the name calling slack if I lag behind!
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Re: Why so late?

Postby SandChigger » 24 Jun 2009 12:52

Just tag me when you get tired. :P

Pulling out all the quotes won't make any difference, just as it never made any difference quoting at TAZ or arnoldo. 'Pest has shown from the errors he's made that he's more conversant with McDune than Dune. He swallows whole every choice little morsel that drops from between KJA's butt cheeks.
I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

I don't like every writer's style; for instance, I have never been able to get through Ursula LeGuin, China Mieville, or Iain Banks, all of whom are critical darlings. —KJA

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inhuien
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Re: Why so late?

Postby inhuien » 24 Jun 2009 12:54

redbugpest wrote:
inhuien wrote:
redbugpest wrote:
Schu wrote:Man, just because it's a nasty comment doesn't mean you're not a retard. Learn to accept your inner and outer retard, and you will be happy (but still retarded).


Ass Sch! Excuse me - I sneezed! :o

Does it make you feel good about yourself to call me names?

Does it make you feel good to be called names?


The automatic derogatory name calling is really a sign of insecurity.

And the most clever avoidance of questions sets your Machiavellian mustache all a quiver, Perhaps.
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Re: Why so late?

Postby Lundse » 24 Jun 2009 12:55

A Thing of Eternity wrote:Could someone maybe link the thread where we list ALL the quotes together? I'm pretty sure we've been over this a few times.


I got one! :dance:

From my TAZ-discussing days. Ahh... TAZ :-)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Lundse/Dune_quotes
(This is not what wikipedia is for, apologies to the community, but that was where I started collecting it).

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Re: Why so late?

Postby redbugpest » 24 Jun 2009 13:37

"Do not fear the lxians [...] They can make the machines, but they no longer can make arafel. I know. I was there."
Leto II, explicitly saying that humanity is no longer threatened by extinction from machines. Hence, completely incompatible with the return of Omnius.

Wrong – the Ixian’s do not make him again – he survived the Jihad. Leto II is saying that it is safe for the Ixians to make more hi tech equipment. He knows that technology such as the No Ships and the Ixian drives will be needed to fight the machines when Humanity meets them again in the future.

The Butlerian Jihad tried to rid our universe of machines which simulate the mind of man.
Not machines which killed men, which would be the more relevant point if that was what they did.

It can be taken either way. It’s too vague a statement to be conclusive.

One moment he felt himself setting forth on the Butlerian Jihad, eager to destroy any machine which simulated human awareness. That had to be the past -- over and done with. Yet his senses hurtled through the experience, absorbing the most minute details. He heard a minister-companion speaking from a pulpit: "We must negate the machines-that-think. Humans must set their own guidelines. This is not something machines can do. Reasoning depends upon programming, not on hardware, and we are the ultimate program!" He heard the voice clearly, knew his surroundings -- a vast wooden hall with dark windows. Light came from sputtering flames. And his minister-companion said: "Our Jihad is a 'dump program.' We dump the things which destroy us as humans!"
Leto II remebering genetically.

Again this could be argued either way. Humans must set their own guidelines could imply that machines had started imposing guidelines among humans.

"Once men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them."

That could be a lead in to the Titans, who controlled Omnius until Omnius was freed through a programming error. Again this is open to the interpretation of the person reading it.

Then came the Butlerian Jihad -- two generations of chaos. The god of machine-logic was overthrown among the masses and a new concept was raised: "Man may not be replaced."

God of machine-logic was overthrown could be interpreted as violence between machine and humanity.

JIHAD, BUTLERIAN: (see also Great Revolt) -- the crusade against computers, thinking machines, and conscious robots begun in 201 B.G. and concluded in 108 B.G. Its chief commandment remains in the O.C. Bible as "Thou shalt not make a machine in the likeness of a human mind."

Hmmmm – Thinking machines and conscious robots – crusade – sounds like an argument for the legends series!

Its possession was the shibboleth of this age, but it carried also the taint of old immorality. Once, they'd been guided by an artificial intelligence, computer brains. The Butlerian Jihad had ended that, but it hadn't ended the aura of aristocratic vice which enclosed such things.
About a fencing machine - which is the closest thing to a robot in the Dune universe.

Guided by an artificial intelligence – Omnius!

Edited for your pleasure!
Last edited by redbugpest on 24 Jun 2009 14:06, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why so late?

Postby Freakzilla » 24 Jun 2009 13:50

Is it your intent to make your replies hard to distinguish?

Get to know the quote button or bb code.
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Re: Why so late?

Postby TheDukester » 24 Jun 2009 14:02

redbugpest wrote:Again this could be argued either way.

No, really, it can't.

It's great that you like the pew!-pew!-pew! action from TheKJA's SkyNet regurgitation. Really: knock yourself out.

But here's the problem: the rest of us here are talking about Dune.
"Anything I write will be remembered and listed in bibliographies on Dune for several hundred years ..." — some delusional halfwit troll.

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Re: Why so late?

Postby redbugpest » 24 Jun 2009 14:07

TheDukester wrote:
redbugpest wrote:Again this could be argued either way.

No, really, it can't.

It's great that you like the pew!-pew!-pew! action from TheKJA's SkyNet regurgitation. Really: knock yourself out.

But here's the problem: the rest of us here are talking about Dune.


You have just closed your mind to alternatives to your own beleif systems
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Re: Why so late?

Postby TheDukester » 24 Jun 2009 14:11

redbugpest wrote:You have just closed your mind to alternatives to your own beleif systems

No, actually, I just paid attention when I read this book:

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Really, it wasn't that hard. You should give it a shot sometime.
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Re: Why so late?

Postby SandChigger » 24 Jun 2009 14:16

redbugpest wrote:You have just closed your mind to alternatives to your own beleif systems

Oh, go sing it somewhere else. You're as closed as you claim we are.

Fuck off.
I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

I don't like every writer's style; for instance, I have never been able to get through Ursula LeGuin, China Mieville, or Iain Banks, all of whom are critical darlings. —KJA

I...had written a bunch of Star Wars and X-Files books...that proved not just that I'm a hack, but that I could write in somebody else's universe... —KJA

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Re: Why so late?

Postby redbugpest » 24 Jun 2009 14:19

I would suggest you read it again - You seem to have a problem with allowing only one interpretation to statements that are ambivalent.
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Re: Why so late?

Postby SandChigger » 24 Jun 2009 14:22

Take your suggestions and shove them up your ass, beside your head. Oh, no, wait, that's halfway up KJA's ass, isn't it?
I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

I don't like every writer's style; for instance, I have never been able to get through Ursula LeGuin, China Mieville, or Iain Banks, all of whom are critical darlings. —KJA

I...had written a bunch of Star Wars and X-Files books...that proved not just that I'm a hack, but that I could write in somebody else's universe... —KJA

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Re: Why so late?

Postby redbugpest » 24 Jun 2009 14:24

SandChigger wrote:
redbugpest wrote:You have just closed your mind to alternatives to your own beleif systems

Oh, go sing it somewhere else. You're as closed as you claim we are.

Fuck off.


Chiggie! I post what I feel is a valid alternative interpretation for direct quotes from Dune and instead of wanting to discuss it, all you do is criticize me? And Duh Duksta is arguing by saying No it’s Not! – it’s like a bad Monty Python bit!
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Re: Why so late?

Postby TheDukester » 24 Jun 2009 14:26

redbugpest wrote:I would suggest you read it again - You seem to have a problem with allowing only one interpretation to statements that are ambivalent.

Except they're not. The entire TBJ saga is clear to anyone who reads above the level of monthly McNovels hiked out by a hack.

Oh, whoops. Never mind. Yeah, you just stick with the pew!-pew!-pew! action. That'll be easier for you.
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Re: Why so late?

Postby Freakzilla » 24 Jun 2009 14:26

redbugpest wrote:I would suggest you read it again - You seem to have a problem with allowing only one interpretation to statements that are ambivalent.


I've read it over a dozen times, I've even written summaries of each chapter (for all the books) and I agree with them.

The Dune series is about humans, not robots. You don't seem to make the distinction between "machines" and "artificial intelligence".

"Men with machines enlsaving other men" does not need to be interpreted.
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Re: Why so late?

Postby GamePlayer » 24 Jun 2009 14:32

redbugpest wrote:Chiggie! I post what I feel is a valid alternative interpretation for direct quotes from Dune and instead of wanting to discuss it, all you do is criticize me? And Duh Duksta is arguing by saying No it’s Not! – it’s like a bad Monty Python bit!


*swoon*

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Open up your loving arms,
Watch out here I come

You spin me right round, baby, right round,
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I want your loooooooooooove!"
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Re: Why so late?

Postby redbugpest » 24 Jun 2009 14:36

Freakzilla wrote:
redbugpest wrote:I would suggest you read it again - You seem to have a problem with allowing only one interpretation to statements that are ambivalent.


I've read it over a dozen times, I've even written summaries of each chapter (for all the books) and I agree with them.

The Dune series is about humans, not robots. You don't seem to make the distinction between "machines" and "artificial intelligence".

"Men with machines enlsaving other men" does not need to be interpreted.


I think the sum of the statements written over time leave room for doubt. I can see where the concept may have evolved over time in his mind as he continued to build his universe.
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Re: Why so late?

Postby TheDukester » 24 Jun 2009 14:40

redbugpest wrote:I think the sum of the statements written over time leave room for doubt.


SandChigger wrote:Pulling out all the quotes won't make any difference, just as it never made any difference quoting at TAZ or arnoldo.

You called it, Chiggie.

I guess that old saying is true: "you can led a preek to Dune, but you can't make him understand it."
"Anything I write will be remembered and listed in bibliographies on Dune for several hundred years ..." — some delusional halfwit troll.

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Re: Why so late?

Postby Freakzilla » 24 Jun 2009 14:44

redbugpest wrote:"Do not fear the lxians [...] They can make the machines, but they no longer can make arafel. I know. I was there."
Leto II, explicitly saying that humanity is no longer threatened by extinction from machines. Hence, completely incompatible with the return of Omnius.

Wrong – the Ixian’s do not make him again – he survived the Jihad. Leto II is saying that it is safe for the Ixians to make more hi tech equipment. He knows that technology such as the No Ships and the Ixian drives will be needed to fight the machines when Humanity meets them again in the future.


Wrong. No-ships and the Ixian Navigation Machine were needed to enable The Scattering, which was Leto's plan for the survival of humanity.

The Butlerian Jihad tried to rid our universe of machines which simulate the mind of man.
Not machines which killed men, which would be the more relevant point if that was what they did.

It can be taken either way. It’s too vague a statement to be conclusive.


Warfare was mechanized all the way through FH's Dune books:

Three -- Planetary feudalism remained in constant danger from a large
technical class, but the effects of the Butlerian Jihad continued as a damper on
technological excesses. Ixians, Tleilaxu, and a few scattered outer planets were
the only possible threat in this regard, and they were planet-vulnerable to the
combined wrath of the rest of the Imperium. The Butlerian Jihad would not be
undone. Mechanized warfare required a large technical class. The Atreides
Imperium had channeled this force into other pursuits. No large technical class
existed unwatched. And the Empire remained safely feudalist, naturally, since
that was the best social form for spreading over widely dispersed wild frontiers
-- new planets.

~Children of Dune

One moment he felt himself setting forth on the Butlerian Jihad, eager to destroy any machine which simulated human awareness. That had to be the past -- over and done with. Yet his senses hurtled through the experience, absorbing the most minute details. He heard a minister-companion speaking from a pulpit: "We must negate the machines-that-think. Humans must set their own guidelines. This is not something machines can do. Reasoning depends upon programming, not on hardware, and we are the ultimate program!" He heard the voice clearly, knew his surroundings -- a vast wooden hall with dark windows. Light came from sputtering flames. And his minister-companion said: "Our Jihad is a 'dump program.' We dump the things which destroy us as humans!"
Leto II remebering genetically.

Again this could be argued either way. Humans must set their own guidelines could imply that machines had started imposing guidelines among humans.


Which part of that quote supports machines turning on mankind?

"Once men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them."

That could be a lead in to the Titans, who controlled Omnius until Omnius was freed through a programming error. Again this is open to the interpretation of the person reading it.


If it happened the way KJA depicted, RM Mohiam would have said: "Once men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But the machines turned on them and nearly exterminating humanity."

Kind of a big thing to omit, don't you think? The danger was in turning your thinking over to the machines, not the machines themselves.

Then came the Butlerian Jihad -- two generations of chaos. The god of machine-logic was overthrown among the masses and a new concept was raised: "Man may not be replaced."

God of machine-logic was overthrown could be interpreted as violence between machine and humanity.
"AMONG THE MASSES" refers to PEOPLE.

JIHAD, BUTLERIAN: (see also Great Revolt) -- the crusade against computers, thinking machines, and conscious robots begun in 201 B.G. and concluded in 108 B.G. Its chief commandment remains in the O.C. Bible as "Thou shalt not make a machine in the likeness of a human mind."

Hmmmm – Thinking machines and conscious robots – crusade – sounds like an argument for the legends series!


Not one bit of the prequels seemed like a religious crusade.

Its possession was the shibboleth of this age, but it carried also the taint of old immorality. Once, they'd been guided by an artificial intelligence, computer brains. The Butlerian Jihad had ended that, but it hadn't ended the aura of aristocratic vice which enclosed such things.
About a fencing machine - which is the closest thing to a robot in the Dune universe.

Guided by an artificial intelligence – Omnius!


Again, this quote is about the dangers of turning your thinking over to machines, not about how if you do they will turn on you and kill you.

Edited for your pleasure!


Thank you! :D
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Re: Why so late?

Postby TheDukester » 24 Jun 2009 14:46

Oh, my ...

School is in session now. You brought this on yourself, Pest.
"Anything I write will be remembered and listed in bibliographies on Dune for several hundred years ..." — some delusional halfwit troll.


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