redbugpest wrote:"Do not fear the lxians [...] They can make the machines, but they no longer can make arafel. I know. I was there."
Leto II, explicitly saying that humanity is no longer threatened by extinction from machines. Hence, completely incompatible with the return of Omnius.
Wrong – the Ixian’s do not make him again – he survived the Jihad. Leto II is saying that it is safe for the Ixians to make more hi tech equipment. He knows that technology such as the No Ships and the Ixian drives will be needed to fight the machines when Humanity meets them again in the future.
Wrong. No-ships and the Ixian Navigation Machine were needed to enable The Scattering, which was Leto's plan for the survival of humanity.
The Butlerian Jihad tried to rid our universe of machines which simulate the mind of man.
Not machines which killed men, which would be the more relevant point if that was what they did.
It can be taken either way. It’s too vague a statement to be conclusive.
Warfare was mechanized all the way through FH's Dune books:Three -- Planetary feudalism remained in constant danger from a large
technical class, but the effects of the Butlerian Jihad continued as a damper on
technological excesses. Ixians, Tleilaxu, and a few scattered outer planets were
the only possible threat in this regard, and they were planet-vulnerable to the
combined wrath of the rest of the Imperium. The Butlerian Jihad would not be
undone. Mechanized warfare required a large technical class. The Atreides
Imperium had channeled this force into other pursuits. No large technical class
existed unwatched. And the Empire remained safely feudalist, naturally, since
that was the best social form for spreading over widely dispersed wild frontiers
-- new planets.~Children of Dune
One moment he felt himself setting forth on the Butlerian Jihad, eager to destroy any machine which simulated human awareness. That had to be the past -- over and done with. Yet his senses hurtled through the experience, absorbing the most minute details. He heard a minister-companion speaking from a pulpit: "We must negate the machines-that-think. Humans must set their own guidelines. This is not something machines can do. Reasoning depends upon programming, not on hardware, and we are the ultimate program!" He heard the voice clearly, knew his surroundings -- a vast wooden hall with dark windows. Light came from sputtering flames. And his minister-companion said: "Our Jihad is a 'dump program.' We dump the things which destroy us as humans!"
Leto II remebering genetically.
Again this could be argued either way. Humans must set their own guidelines could imply that machines had started imposing guidelines among humans.
Which part of that quote supports machines turning on mankind?
"Once men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them."
That could be a lead in to the Titans, who controlled Omnius until Omnius was freed through a programming error. Again this is open to the interpretation of the person reading it.
If it happened the way KJA depicted, RM Mohiam would have said: "Once men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But the machines turned on them and nearly exterminating humanity."
Kind of a big thing to omit, don't you think? The danger was in turning your thinking over to the machines, not the machines themselves.
Then came the Butlerian Jihad -- two generations of chaos. The god of machine-logic was overthrown among the masses and a new concept was raised: "Man may not be replaced."
God of machine-logic was overthrown could be interpreted as violence between machine and humanity.
"AMONG THE MASSES" refers to PEOPLE.
JIHAD, BUTLERIAN: (see also Great Revolt) -- the crusade against computers, thinking machines, and conscious robots begun in 201 B.G. and concluded in 108 B.G. Its chief commandment remains in the O.C. Bible as "Thou shalt not make a machine in the likeness of a human mind."
Hmmmm – Thinking machines and conscious robots – crusade – sounds like an argument for the legends series!
Not one bit of the prequels seemed like a religious crusade.
Its possession was the shibboleth of this age, but it carried also the taint of old immorality. Once, they'd been guided by an artificial intelligence, computer brains. The Butlerian Jihad had ended that, but it hadn't ended the aura of aristocratic vice which enclosed such things.
About a fencing machine - which is the closest thing to a robot in the Dune universe.
Guided by an artificial intelligence – Omnius!
Again, this quote is about the dangers of turning your thinking over to machines, not about how if you do they will turn on you and kill you.
Edited for your pleasure!