Why so late?

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Freakzilla
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Re: Why so late?

Postby Freakzilla » 25 Jun 2009 11:03

Actually, I'm just curious as to how long it will take before the answers stop flowing from big daddy Keith (or wherever they are coming from, because it certainly isn't FH's books.)

I can always take comfort in the fact that they are bitter because they can't win. :D
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Re: Why so late?

Postby TheDukester » 25 Jun 2009 11:13

Freakzilla wrote:Actually, I'm just curious as to how long it will take before the answers stop flowing from big daddy Keith (or wherever they are coming from, because it certainly isn't FH's books.)

They're coming from TheKJA ...

... and, yes, the flow already seems to be diminishing. :lol:
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Re: Why so late?

Postby GamePlayer » 25 Jun 2009 11:17

The trolling must flow! :lol:
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Re: Why so late?

Postby Nekhrun » 25 Jun 2009 11:19

redbugpest wrote:
Why the bloody hell would Frank, who was not retarded, write about an evil AI killing off humanity as "machine-logic was overthrown". Was he including deliberately obtruse prose on a drunken bet?

Part of your problem with whole line of argument is that you surmise that Frank already knew what was going to be written in the future, and should have written his books more in line with that train of thought.

And you don't think that FH would've worked to stay consistent with text he wrote previously. Nothing can excuse the liberties taken by kja and the other guy. Your method of posting seems purposefully inflammatory as we are not immediately aware of the identity of the person you are addressing. You prove yourself to be more and more a troll with each post.
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Re: Why so late?

Postby Freakzilla » 25 Jun 2009 11:29

TheDukester wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:Actually, I'm just curious as to how long it will take before the answers stop flowing from big daddy Keith (or wherever they are coming from, because it certainly isn't FH's books.)

They're coming from TheKJA ...

... and, yes, the flow already seems to be diminishing. :lol:



I love it when a plan comes together. There's a new A-Team movie in the works, Ice-Cube will play Mr. T, so I've heard. :roll:
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Re: Why so late?

Postby Freakzilla » 25 Jun 2009 12:15

"But the lxians play with automation!" Anteac protested.
"Discrete pieces, finite bits linked one to another," he agreed. "Once set in
motion, what is to stop it?"
Luyseyal discarded all pretense of Bene Gesserit self-control, a fine comment on
her recognition of Leto's powers. Her voice almost screeched: "Do you know what
the lxians boast? That their machine will predict your actions!"
"Why should I fear that? The closer they come to me, the
more they must be my allies. They cannot conquer me, but I can conquer them."
Anteac made to speak but stopped when Luyseyal touched her arm.
"Are you already allied with Ix?" Luyseyal asked. "We hear that you conferred
overlong with their new Ambassador, this Hwi Noree."
"I have no allies," he said. "Only servants, students and enemies."
"And you do not fear the lxians' machine?" Anteac insisted.
"Is automation synonymous with conscious intelligence?" he asked.
Anteac's eyes went wide and filmy as she withdrew into her memories. Leto found
himself caught by fascination with what she must be encountering there within
her own internal mob.
We share some of those memories, he thought.
Leto felt then the seductive attraction of community with Reverend Mothers. It
would be so familiar, so supportive. . . and so deadly. Anteac was trying to
lure him once more.
She spoke: "The machine cannot anticipate every problem of importance to humans.
It is the difference between serial bits and an unbroken continuum. We have the
one; machines are confined to the other."

"You still have the power of reason," he said.
"Share!" Luyseyal said. It was a command to Anteac and it revealed with sharp
abruptness who really dominated this pair-the younger over the older.
Exquisite, Leto thought.
"Intelligence adapts," Anteac said.
Parsimonious with her words, too, Leto thought, hiding his amusement.
"Intelligence creates," Leto said. "That means you must deal with responses
never before imagined. You must confront the new."
"Such as the possibility of the Ixian Machine," Anteac said. It was not a
question.
~God Emperor of Dune

I think this quote speaks volumes on the subject for itself. Let us know if KJA needs it explained to him. :P
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Re: Why so late?

Postby SandChigger » 25 Jun 2009 13:26

redbugpest wrote:I think the ambiguity left it open to the interpretation of KJA and BH.

So it is interpretation, not something specifically spelled out by FH in his notes? ;)
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Re: Why so late?

Postby redbugpest » 25 Jun 2009 13:39

So let me get this right...

You are not open to alternative theories but want to discuss these concepts

Any alternative theories I put forward are not my own, they are pass through comunications from KJA?

In the face of a contraditory opinion, your well thought out response is to attack the person with the opposing opinion?


*shakes head sadly* and this is what passes for a discussion???

:crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:

You obvously attach way more importance to yourselves than is normal...
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Re: Why so late?

Postby Freakzilla » 25 Jun 2009 13:52

redbugpest wrote:So let me get this right...

You are not open to alternative theories but want to discuss these concepts


Not if they contradict what FH wrote.

Any alternative theories I put forward are not my own, they are pass through comunications from KJA?


That's just a theory, it may or may not be true.

In the face of a contraditory opinion, your well thought out response is to attack the person with the opposing opinion?


I haven't attacked you. In fact, I've responded to every one of your posts.


*shakes head sadly* and this is what passes for a discussion???

:crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:

You obvously attach way more importance to yourselves than is normal...


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Re: Why so late?

Postby SandChigger » 25 Jun 2009 14:20

Was he responding to you, Freak?

Damn, you're good at this psychic stuff! :P

So it's not spelled out in the notes, right? Ask Kevin if you're not sure.

Better yet, fuck this middleman shit, again. Tell Kevin to grow a pair and answer for his shit himself.
"Let the dead give water to the dead. As for me, it's NO MORE FUCKING TEARS!"

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Re: Why so late?

Postby Freakzilla » 25 Jun 2009 14:30

SandChigger wrote:Was he responding to you, Freak?


There's no telling, since he doesn't use quotes. :?
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Re: Why so late?

Postby GamePlayer » 25 Jun 2009 14:35

It's only day two and he's already pulling the sympathy card? :shock:

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Re: Why so late?

Postby redbugpest » 25 Jun 2009 14:41

Freakzilla wrote:
redbugpest wrote:So let me get this right...

You are not open to alternative theories but want to discuss these concepts


Not if they contradict what FH wrote.
That is the crux of the discussion - what did Frank mean?

Any alternative theories I put forward are not my own, they are pass through comunications from KJA?


That's just a theory, it may or may not be true.
You may want to point that out to the other folks on this board that have decided to accept it as truth without proof. I hope they are not an example of the thouroughness of research!

In the face of a contraditory opinion, your well thought out response is to attack the person with the opposing opinion?


I haven't attacked you. In fact, I've responded to every one of your posts.
Absolutly correct, and I salute you for that - the remark was a general remark in response to the other posts.

*shakes head sadly* and this is what passes for a discussion???

:crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:

You obvously attach way more importance to yourselves than is normal...


I exist only to serve.

But who do you serve? Truth or Chiggie?
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Re: Why so late?

Postby SandChigger » 25 Jun 2009 14:44

:shock:

:laughing:

Gawd you really are stupid.

And have no idea who you're dealing with.

Freak has been a Dune-board presence for AEONS.

Tell Kevin to try something original for a change. :roll:
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Re: Why so late?

Postby TheDukester » 25 Jun 2009 14:57

redbugpest wrote:But who do you serve? Truth or Chiggie?

Wow: total desperation with that one. Pathetic.

This is like watching a punchy fighter in the seconds before the ref is going to stop the bout.
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Re: Why so late?

Postby SandChigger » 25 Jun 2009 15:05

Well, I guess you'll just have to excuse him, since he can't seem to imagine not being subservient to someone else.

How's that quote go, They also service who stand on bended knees? ;)

Fluff, fluff, fluff.

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Re: Why so late?

Postby redbugpest » 25 Jun 2009 15:08

TheDukester wrote:
redbugpest wrote:But who do you serve? Truth or Chiggie?

Wow: total desperation with that one. Pathetic.

This is like watching a punchy fighter in the seconds before the ref is going to stop the bout.


:cat fight:

Freak seems to hve his shit together, but I think that the long term exposure to Chiggie's constant droaning may have distracted his objectivity. I never said he did not seem to know his shit - it's you and your master, chiggie who seem to spend your time answering with BS.

If Freak is the man, then why dont you keep the distracting comments to yourself and let him show me the error of my ways...

Once again you bring nothing to the table - Woof woof!
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Re: Why so late?

Postby Freakzilla » 25 Jun 2009 15:10

redbugpest wrote:But who do you serve? Truth or Chiggie?


Do you really believe in "truth"?

"Beware of the truth. Although much sought after, truth can be
dangerous to the seeker. Myths and reassuring lies are much easier to find and
believe. If you find a truth, even a temporary one, it can demand that you make
painful changes. Conceal your truths within words. Natural ambiguity will
protect you then. Words are much easier to absorb than are the sharp Delphic
stabs of wordless portent. With words, you can cry out in the chorus:
"Why didn't someone warn me?"
"But I did warn you. I warned you by example, not with words."

~Leto II

If you live in bad faith, lies will appear to you like the truth.
~Leto II

"An obscure truth is not the truth."
~RM Anteac

BTW, I find your reply insulting. I serve no man.
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Re: Why so late?

Postby redbugpest » 25 Jun 2009 15:21

Freakzilla wrote:
redbugpest wrote:But who do you serve? Truth or Chiggie?


Do you really believe in "truth"?

"Beware of the truth. Although much sought after, truth can be
dangerous to the seeker. Myths and reassuring lies are much easier to find and
believe. If you find a truth, even a temporary one, it can demand that you make
painful changes. Conceal your truths within words. Natural ambiguity will
protect you then. Words are much easier to absorb than are the sharp Delphic
stabs of wordless portent. With words, you can cry out in the chorus:
"Why didn't someone warn me?"
"But I did warn you. I warned you by example, not with words."

~Leto II

If you live in bad faith, lies will appear to you like the truth.
~Leto II

"An obscure truth is not the truth."
~RM Anteac

BTW, I find your reply insulting. I serve no man.


I believe the search for understanding it the only worthwhile endeavor.

I offer my apologies for insulting you. You have been one of the few here who have attempted to hold a real conversation about this.
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Re: Why so late?

Postby TheDukester » 25 Jun 2009 15:22

redbugpest wrote:... and let him show me the error of my ways...

Um ...

Hey, genius? He has shown you. Like 75 times already. And he hasn't been the only one.

Seriously, is your reading comprehension that poor?
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Re: Why so late?

Postby redbugpest » 25 Jun 2009 15:23

TheDukester wrote:
redbugpest wrote:... and let him show me the error of my ways...

Um ...

Hey, genius? He has shown you. Like 75 times already. And he hasn't been the only one.

Seriously, is your reading comprehension that poor?


Thank you for illistrating my point.
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Re: Why so late?

Postby Freakzilla » 25 Jun 2009 15:29

redbugpest wrote:
TheDukester wrote:
redbugpest wrote:... and let him show me the error of my ways...

Um ...

Hey, genius? He has shown you. Like 75 times already. And he hasn't been the only one.

Seriously, is your reading comprehension that poor?


Thank you for illistrating my point.


Apology accepted.

BTW, you can't blame these people for their hostility. BH and KJA have essentially raped a story they love and I feel the same way. Also, this isn't the first time we've made all these points, to us it's like flogging a dead horse.

As administrator and creator of this forum, it is my duty to be "diplomatic", but I cannot make the other members do the same and I don't expect them to.
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Re: Why so late?

Postby Lundse » 25 Jun 2009 16:41

::Are you kidding me! You are saying that all through God Emperor, Leto II had a secret plan for when humanity met the machines again - and he never once mentioned that even in his thoughts! Wow! Never mind the original quote or that you think I think the Ixians remade Omnius (!?!?!?!?!?) or anything, just wow.

I didn’t mean to imply that the Ixans made Omnius in the first place,

Of course not. But you implied that I did. Why are you going on about how you did not imply it?

-

::This is Leto thinking back. Are you saying that in reality, he is remembering the whole Skynet thing, but he is just musing out loud how the goal was not survival, but to exterminate the thinking machines?

He is remembering an uprising against the thinking machine, and if you are willing to believe that it was a machine against man conflict, survival would hinge on the extermination of the thinking machine.

So in other words, yes. Leto II is thinking back on the Jihad, but never once mentions Omnius. He is thinking back on machines which killed and tortured people for fun, but he is talking about how we need to rid ourselves of their influences and guidelines.
Just like Churchill was always going on about Hitler's infeasibly economic policies and failure to provide health care. What you is suggesting is equally silly.

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Re: Why so late?

Postby Lundse » 25 Jun 2009 16:45

redbugpest wrote:According to you, the machines did not "set guidelines". They enslaved people! They killed them! "I think it is wrong for the murderous machines to shoot at me whenever I walk out my door, maybe if we had a commitee meeting and cupcakes and..."

This is a situation in which someone is inciting the masses, a minister of sorts. He is espousing philosophy, he is talking about taken the reins ad setting guidelines. Not escaping bloody internment camps.
Can you imagine a jew i Krakow, nazis streaming through the initial gates before the great purge, holding a stolen mauser rifle and talking to his huttled band: "The inherent problem with the national socialist ideology is that..."?
No. If one is fighting for ones life, that is all the reason you need. You do not argue for the need to stop a huge bloody thing from ripping your throat out!

Do you seriously believe that when Frank wrote that, he was thinking about humanity fighting for its survival against an evil AI? I am humbly suggesting that he was imagining a scenario where humanity decided to get rid of (dump?) the machines and steer the course of humanity for itself (guidelines).

He saw thinking machines as something that would ultimately lead to the destruction of humanity. That threat could be either physical or psychological or both. I think the ambiguity left it open to the interpretation of KJA and BH.


But the ambiguity destroys the fucking point, doesn't it?

The point is that humanity must set its own guidelines, navigate the infinite possibilities ourselves, or we have become slaves (figuratively!).

If humanity got rid of a, actually rather banal (not the same as "small"), problem of an evil, murderous AI (we know what to do with them), then the whole point that we should do without machines because of what you call "psychological reasons" goes out the window. We do not need to get rid of machines at all, then! We just need to fix them and make a bloody off-switch.

Oh, and this one I simply have to get your thoughts on: Are you really saying that Frank believed that thinking machines "would ultimately lead to the destruction of humanity"?

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Re: Why so late?

Postby Lundse » 25 Jun 2009 16:48

redbugpest wrote:If Frank had intended there to be such an AI, he would have written "But that only permitted a machine to enslave them." He didn't.

Since Frank didn’t know he was going to die before writing the book himself, we cannot know what HE really intended. I’m saying that the above statement does not preclude such a turn of events.
Didn’t Frank allude to Paul (or Leto II?) being fascinated with the idea of a human / machine hybrid?


You completely miss the point. And whether he knew he was going to die or not has no bearing on anything.

If Frank had a scenario in mind, which included Omnius and all that silliness, then the version I invented above would be the logical thing to write. He did not. And he was not retarded, either.
So there is only one reason he did not write something along those lines. And it is the same reason for which he did not mention Omnius, evil cyborgs or machine aggression at all. Take a wild fucking guess.