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    Roger Ebert's Review of Lynch's DUNE

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    Re: Roger Ebert's Review of Lynch's DUNE

    Postby Jodorowsky's Acolyte » 09 Oct 2012 00:39

    I liked your analysis of RE's review, Naive Mind. In turns out, Doug Trumball was approached by Jodorowsky to do the effects for HIS version of DUNE, but he found Trumball to be a self-important snob, and decided to pick the little known special effects guys from DARK STAR instead. (Those guys would go on to make the special effects for ALIEN). As to whom Lynch's special effects team were, I'm uncertain. A collage of Europeans, I think. While I do agree the design is what makes it endure, you have to admit that the worms were among the best parts. I also love how the harvester functions in the movie, too. It's like futuristic WWI desert mining equipment in my mind, because of its antiquated design.

    I do not dispute all of Ebert's points. It's true, it failed to convey the story correctly. I still wonder where he got the idea that Paul looked like he was surfing the worms, and that the worms looked like Kermit. He occasionally comes up with weird interpretations, but he is definitely an foremost expert on film. Maybe the film could have been remedied by cutting out all the unnecessary stuff, therefore Lynch would have had a stable script to work with, and be able to employ his strengths from his previous films to enhance the story. I'm surprised that Lynch didn't do his own special effects, because he's done some impressively weird and convincing stuff on his own in ERASERHEAD (not that it would have improved the film).

    Unless we forget, de Laurentis may share some of the blame for the film's effects. The guy seemed so into campy Italian monster and sci-fi movies for some reason, I guess because they had pizzazz in his mind. The funny thing about Flash Gordon: de Laurentis wanted to make the movie as a response to Star Wars, which he disliked, and couldn't understand what audiences loved about it. Little did he know, that Star Wars borrowed a lot of elements from the original Flash Gordon serials, and that SW was meant as GL's own tribute to FG. I guess Laurentis didn't think SW had enough pizzazz as a space opera, nor Italian enough :?

    I have to admit, I love the Weirding Modules. They're not in the book, but I like how damn effective they are as weapons. It would have been nice to be true to the Weirding Way, but de Laurentis and Lynch didn't have the benefit of Bruce Lee as a choreographer. Could you imagine the Kyle Maclachlan attempting to fight like he was in Fist of Fury? Thufir would have be outraged.
    '...all those who took part in the rise and fall of the Dune project learned how to fall one and one thousand times with savage obstinacy until learning how to stand. I remember my old father who, while dying happy, said to me: "My son, in my life, I triumphed because I learned how to fail."' -Alejandro Jodorowsky
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    Re: Roger Ebert's Review of Lynch's DUNE

    Postby trang » 12 Oct 2012 20:35

    Fuck Siskel and Ebert, and the horse they road in on. Frank wrote the first script for the movie and admitted it was a bad. He deffered to David Lynch and said the written word version was vastly different than the visual version.

    The movie captured the majestic nature of the book, the visuals and the character. In a 1980's special effect time frame, it was done ok, and got across the message.

    It should have been ridley scott, and he punked out, so fuck ridely scottt. David did the best he could with talent and tech he could with intention of more movies.

    I love the david lynch version, the extened version, and the mini series on sci-fi.

    oh by the way FUCK REALLY HARD!!! BH/KJA!! just getting that in.


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    Re: Roger Ebert's Review of Lynch's DUNE

    Postby Jodorowsky's Acolyte » 12 Oct 2012 23:39

    No need to disregard, trang. I agree with you, and your rant is fucking awesome. David Lynch did do the best he could. Roger Ebert assumed that the cast was miserable, yet according to some of the behind-the-scenes material, they weren't really miserable.

    You want to know which Lynch movie really upset Ebert? Blue Velvet. He wanted Lynch to be reprimanded for being cruel to actors, because he was convinced that he was torturing them based upon how upsetting the movie was for him. If he had only bothered to actually talk the cast members, he would have realized that he overreacted over an illusion. The actors were so convincing in their acting of being abused, Ebert thought their performance reflected how the director treated them. He even wrote an essay on how upset he was.

    It wasn't the first time a film got him all emotionally distraught. Oliver Stone's The Doors definitely upset him, I guess because he was uneasy about how dysfunctional Val Kilmer's Jim Morrison in his view. When he showed his outrage over the movie, Siskel said to Ebert that he seemed to be overreacting about the movie. Strange thing is, he was never upset by the movie Quills, which has a really nasty and traumatic ending.

    However, even though he was reactionary in the past, he has lately changed his mind about a few films lately. He admitted that he didn't get El Topo at first, and now it's one of his Great Movies list. His first review of A Clockwork Orange was unfair, and he replied to a fan that he's been reconsidering his view on that film. He even regretted giving Gladiator a harsh review once Troy and Alexander were released. So, he might reconsider his review of Dune (but maybe we should wait until a really good Dune movie is developed and released in his lifetime).

    It's true Scott punked out, but if he hadn't, he wouldn't have made Blade Runner. For some reason, his brother's death made him think that Blade Runner reflected his angst moreso than Dune. It sucks that he hasn't done Dune since (why hasn't he ever tried since, I wonder?)
    '...all those who took part in the rise and fall of the Dune project learned how to fall one and one thousand times with savage obstinacy until learning how to stand. I remember my old father who, while dying happy, said to me: "My son, in my life, I triumphed because I learned how to fail."' -Alejandro Jodorowsky
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    Re: Roger Ebert's Review of Lynch's DUNE

    Postby jakoye » 21 May 2013 09:54

    Jodorowsky's Acolyte wrote:I have to admit, I love the Weirding Modules. They're not in the book, but I like how damn effective they are as weapons.


    Disagree. Lynch's version of the Weirding Way was unnecessary, unlikely, and, worst of all, silly.

    Unnecessary because there's no reason to change what was in the book. I don't think it would have been beyond the capabilities of Lynch to show the one scene where Jessica disarms Stilgar using the Weirding Way. Beyond that, it could just be referenced that Paul was teaching the Fremen the Weirding Way and leave it at that. No real necessity to show Bruce Lee-style kung fu action.

    Unlikely because what's the point of making sound into a weapon? I mean, I guess sound could be a crowd control weapon of some sort (as long as the operator and any friendly nearby forces had ear protection), but turning sound into some kind of projectile (it's unclear exactly what the Weirding modules are doing... some kind of invisible laser beam?)? Even if you were to do this, wouldn't it be better to record the sound of one's voice and then just rapid fire away? Seems horribly inefficient to have to yell every time you want to take a shot. And what if you have a sore throat the day of the battle? :)

    Silly, because it made the Fremen look stupid. Pointing a gun at something, shouting "Eeee-jaaah!" and watching your target explode... anybody could do that. Part of the magic of the Fremen was that they were the greatest swordsmen in the galaxy, greater even than the dreaded Sardaukar. We should've seen THAT portrayed instead of them running around with stupid sound weapons that made no sense and WEREN'T in the book.

    It was also dumb to have the Atreides initial defeat on Arrakis be partially explained by Yueh sabotaging the Weirding Modules. The Atreides didn't lose because they lost a store of weapons! They lost because they were completely swamped by the numbers of troops their enemies chose to deploy. As Thufir ruminates later, they all underestimated how much the Baron was willing to spend in order to eliminate the Duke.
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    Re: Roger Ebert's Review of Lynch's DUNE

    Postby Freakzilla » 21 May 2013 11:34

    :clap:
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    Re: Roger Ebert's Review of Lynch's DUNE

    Postby SandRider » 21 May 2013 15:28

    :clap: +1

    good post.
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    Re: Roger Ebert's Review of Lynch's DUNE

    Postby Jodorowsky's Acolyte » 21 May 2013 20:55

    You would make a formidable Duke, jakoye!

    You're completely right in your argument. I have to admit my dorkish tendency to want to imitate the Weirding sounds they make, which are more like "Shaaaaaaaaaaa-CHWWAAAAAA!" Yep, they're silly and unnecessary, and were possibly included just to give cast members a form of shouting therapy just to deal with the stress of the movie.

    It does unfortunately make the Fremen look stupid, yet the filmmakers included because they didn't know how to make the novel's Weirding Way work effectively on film. I don't think they could find expert fighting choreographers who could make it work. The best they could of done was get one of Bruce Lee's best students to choreograph the Weirding Way, though it would be way more preferable to have had Bruce Lee himself choreograph if only he'd been still alive. You'd need a lightning-quick choreographer like Lee in order to effectively realize the Weirding Way believably on film... Or bullet-time effects.
    '...all those who took part in the rise and fall of the Dune project learned how to fall one and one thousand times with savage obstinacy until learning how to stand. I remember my old father who, while dying happy, said to me: "My son, in my life, I triumphed because I learned how to fail."' -Alejandro Jodorowsky
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    Re: Roger Ebert's Review of Lynch's DUNE

    Postby Naïve mind » 22 May 2013 00:21

    I always imagine the discussion between Lynch/Herbert/Whomever and some kind of stereotypical studio executive.

    "Also, we need to add something to make the toy line more attractive."

    "Excuse me?"

    "You know, like Star Wars, those 'light swords'? My kids love them. We need something similar for this movie."

    "There's krysknives. They're the diamond teeth of a giant worm, and they're used for sword fighting."

    "I don't think that's magical enough. We need something different ... like, Star Wars had light swords, so let's have sound swords."

    "I'm not sure that makes any sense."

    "A sound gun, then. Yeah, that has a nice ring to it. Shoots bolts of compressed sound."

    "I'm not sure this would fit with the rest of the movie."

    "I was under the impression this movie was going to be just like Star Wars, but better. Maybe we need to reconsider the funding?"

    etc.
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    Re: Roger Ebert's Review of Lynch's DUNE

    Postby Sandwurm88 » 22 May 2013 22:17

    The movie is really weird man, I still don't know what to make of it. It's been said here time and time again, but every time I see stuff like the bald BGs, the frickin' pugs, the modules, the rain-scene at the end, and Sting its always a "what the hell..." moment for me.
    I've only watched the movie a few times, I prefer the miniseries, which, I think, is sort of overlooked. IMO it's pretty damn good...just get rid of some of the weirder costumes of course.
    Disagree with Ebert about the sandworms though. Lynch's are alot like what I imagine --the miniseries ones are kinda cartoonish IMO.
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    Re: Roger Ebert's Review of Lynch's DUNE

    Postby SandRider » 22 May 2013 23:13

    I really liked Sting in the Lynch84, but you gotta understand the context ...

    the Police had become a huge mega-hit, Gordon was riding the crest of
    his fame ... this role & the Frankenstein thing showed his talent outside
    of the music ...

    so yeah, a hundred years later it don't make a lotta sense, but ....
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    Re: Roger Ebert's Review of Lynch's DUNE

    Postby SandRider » 22 May 2013 23:14

    as for the pugs and the other shit, well ... you know, a few years later,
    Lynch threw a backwards-talking, dancing dwarf @ us & we didn't blink an eye ...
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    Re: Roger Ebert's Review of Lynch's DUNE

    Postby Freakzilla » 23 May 2013 06:15

    It was supposed to be an aardvark but Patrick Stewart refused to carry it into battle.
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