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    KJA has brought in younger readers to Dune.

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    KJA has brought in younger readers to Dune.

    Postby KJA Special Forces » 24 Sep 2009 13:03

    One thing that KJA has done, that I think is valid, is he has been able to make Dune more accessable to a younger generation of readers. I think this is a valid addition to the dune fan base. The reason that younger readers can handle KJA more so then FH is as you guys point out often, FH used far more advanced vocabulary and story telling techniques that can be confussing for younger/less experienced readers.

    I am sure many of you such as Freakzilla read dune at a young age (13 for Freakzilla) That is amazing, I think Dune is a college level reading however, can some of you guys agree that bringing in younger readers is a good thing for a work of fiction?
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    Re: KJA has brought in younger readers to Dune.

    Postby Nekhrun » 24 Sep 2009 13:09

    I'll repeat what I said in another thread:

    No, it's not a valid point. A better author could have done just as much and kept his Dune facts consistent. kja's not special in any way. He's not contributed anything to Dune. Another author would have kept Dune in the spotlight and put new books on the shelf for people to access just like kja has. He has only hurt what could've been a proper way to handle FH's legacy.
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    Re: KJA has brought in younger readers to Dune.

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 24 Sep 2009 13:10

    I read Dune just a few years ago - but when I was 8 I read (and comprehended) The Lord of the Rings, so I'd say kids can handle a decent amount of advanced vocab.

    Dune is SERIOUS literature, dumbing it down to a preschool level doesn't do anyone any good, and it certainly doesn't help young readers get into REAL Dune, because KJA has contradicted the originals SO MANY TIMES that when people start with his books and go on to the originals they are TOTALLY LOST. I saw tons of people logging in at DN who had become so confused by the contradictions that reading KJA's books first entirely ruined their experience with the real Dune.
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    Re: KJA has brought in younger readers to Dune.

    Postby Freakzilla » 24 Sep 2009 13:32

    See? You get actual discussion when you try.

    :D
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    Re: KJA has brought in younger readers to Dune.

    Postby KJA Special Forces » 24 Sep 2009 15:05

    Freakzilla wrote:See? You get actual discussion when you try.

    :D


    Yeah some of you guys are really polite. Some not as much.

    Do you guys think its cool they will make another film? I think thats from young readers and fans. Not us old fellows.

    You made good points about the idea of "dumbing it down" But I dont think it takes away from the real serious themes of dunes original novels. It is sort of a watered down version. But it also might even motivate a young person to learn to read better. Like for me, I started to spend time with the dictionary and learn more words, and re read chapters till they made more sense. In this way, you give me and younger readers a chance to catch up to Frank by starting with KJA. Had I started with Dune I would have become discouraged and given up. But KJA gave me enough of a bridge to really WANT to learn how to read at Frank's writing level.

    In a way, Frank made me a better reader, but KJA started me towards it.
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    Re: KJA has brought in younger readers to Dune.

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 24 Sep 2009 15:12

    I don't deny that it's possible that the new dune novels may bring in the occasional new reader who simply couldn't have made it through Dune itself, but I think that's pretty rare.

    That's the thing about the original Dune - you don't HAVE to comprehend the deep stuff to enjoy it. I think most young children could read it, understand all the vocab and such to a good enough level to enjoy the book immensely as a simple adventure novel, and then years later could go back and go deeper.

    Every second book I read now that I'm an adult has at least one or two words I don't recognise, but that doesn't take away from my enjoyment of them. There simply isn't enough tough diction in Dune to wreck the adventure story part of it.

    I think it would be extremely rare to find someone who TRULY would have found Dune too difficult and gave up. God Emperor of Dune, yes, of course, but Dune itself? Nah.

    I maintain that Dune itself is the best book to start the series with, whether you're 30 or 10.
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    Re: KJA has brought in younger readers to Dune.

    Postby KJA Special Forces » 24 Sep 2009 15:16

    A Thing of Eternity wrote:I don't deny that it's possible that the new dune novels may bring in the occasional new reader who simply couldn't have made it through Dune itself, but I think that's pretty rare.

    That's the thing about the original Dune - you don't HAVE to comprehend the deep stuff to enjoy it. I think most young children could read it, understand all the vocab and such to a good enough level to enjoy the book immensely as a simple adventure novel, and then years later could go back and go deeper.

    Every second book I read now that I'm an adult has at least one or two words I don't recognise, but that doesn't take away from my enjoyment of them. There simply isn't enough tough diction in Dune to wreck the adventure story part of it.

    I think it would be extremely rare to find someone who TRULY would have found Dune too difficult and gave up. God Emperor of Dune, yes, of course, but Dune itself? Nah.

    I maintain that Dune itself is the best book to start the series with, whether you're 30 or 10.


    I also found Heritics difficult to follow. I did not know how much time had passed between chapters. I also found Dune difficult simply because there are so many different relationships taking place at one time. So vocabulary is only part of my difficulty with Franks writing. He also writes in a way that you already know what you should know. So a few times I had no idea what the scene was really about. I was also unsure if Paul was a hero or a villian. As long as you admit it is POSSIBLE for new younger, less experienced readers to pick up KJA and move towards dune, that is a start. A possible valid point.
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    Re: KJA has brought in younger readers to Dune.

    Postby SandChigger » 24 Sep 2009 15:19

    Bringing younger, dumber(?), ADD/modern-media-life-addled readers to the scene does nothing for Dune, it just means more money for premier scifi hack Kevin J. Anderson and the Herbert Leech Parade.


    I don't remember exactly when I read Dune (and the two original sequels ... which is ALL the Dune books there were at the time), but it was probably when I was a freshman in high school, at age 14. I don't claim to have understood every aspect of the books at that time, but I knew it was more than just "an great adventure story" (or whatever it is KJA says he thought about it at that age). :roll:
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    Re: KJA has brought in younger readers to Dune.

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 24 Sep 2009 15:23

    KJA Special Forces wrote:
    A Thing of Eternity wrote:I don't deny that it's possible that the new dune novels may bring in the occasional new reader who simply couldn't have made it through Dune itself, but I think that's pretty rare.

    That's the thing about the original Dune - you don't HAVE to comprehend the deep stuff to enjoy it. I think most young children could read it, understand all the vocab and such to a good enough level to enjoy the book immensely as a simple adventure novel, and then years later could go back and go deeper.

    Every second book I read now that I'm an adult has at least one or two words I don't recognise, but that doesn't take away from my enjoyment of them. There simply isn't enough tough diction in Dune to wreck the adventure story part of it.

    I think it would be extremely rare to find someone who TRULY would have found Dune too difficult and gave up. God Emperor of Dune, yes, of course, but Dune itself? Nah.

    I maintain that Dune itself is the best book to start the series with, whether you're 30 or 10.


    I also found Heritics difficult to follow. I did not know how much time had passed between chapters. I also found Dune difficult simply because there are so many different relationships taking place at one time. So vocabulary is only part of my difficulty with Franks writing. He also writes in a way that you already know what you should know. So a few times I had no idea what the scene was really about. I was also unsure if Paul was a hero or a villian. As long as you admit it is POSSIBLE for new younger, less experienced readers to pick up KJA and move towards dune, that is a start. A possible valid point.


    You're not SUPPOSED to know if Paul is a hero or a villian!! :lol: That's the ENTIRE point of Dune, and you only find out when you read Messiah.

    The plotline in Dune is pretty straight forward, not totally sure where it was loosing you.

    Either way - the point is that someone could be continueing the series now, and maybe even making it a little easier for certain people to grasp - WITHOUT completely contradicting all of Dune, and all of FH's messages. Why are those necessary elements of making Dune accessable to younger readers?
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    Re: KJA has brought in younger readers to Dune.

    Postby KJA Special Forces » 24 Sep 2009 15:24

    SandChigger wrote:Bringing younger, dumber(?), ADD/modern-media-life-addled readers to the scene does nothing for ME


    I think that Dune is something as many people as possible should know about. And KJA has helped that happen.
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    Re: KJA has brought in younger readers to Dune.

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 24 Sep 2009 15:26

    KJA Special Forces wrote:
    SandChigger wrote:Bringing younger, dumber(?), ADD/modern-media-life-addled readers to the scene does nothing for ME


    I think that Dune is something as many people as possible should know about. And KJA has helped that happen.


    I dissagree - more people knowing about a mediocre series (which is all Dune is now, if you include the new books) doesn't count for much. If new people were being brought to an amazing series my entire veiw would be different.
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    Re: KJA has brought in younger readers to Dune.

    Postby KJA Special Forces » 24 Sep 2009 15:32

    A Thing of Eternity wrote:
    KJA Special Forces wrote:
    A Thing of Eternity wrote:I don't deny that it's possible that the new dune novels may bring in the occasional new reader who simply couldn't have made it through Dune itself, but I think that's pretty rare.

    That's the thing about the original Dune - you don't HAVE to comprehend the deep stuff to enjoy it. I think most young children could read it, understand all the vocab and such to a good enough level to enjoy the book immensely as a simple adventure novel, and then years later could go back and go deeper.

    Every second book I read now that I'm an adult has at least one or two words I don't recognise, but that doesn't take away from my enjoyment of them. There simply isn't enough tough diction in Dune to wreck the adventure story part of it.

    I think it would be extremely rare to find someone who TRULY would have found Dune too difficult and gave up. God Emperor of Dune, yes, of course, but Dune itself? Nah.

    I maintain that Dune itself is the best book to start the series with, whether you're 30 or 10.


    I also found Heritics difficult to follow. I did not know how much time had passed between chapters. I also found Dune difficult simply because there are so many different relationships taking place at one time. So vocabulary is only part of my difficulty with Franks writing. He also writes in a way that you already know what you should know. So a few times I had no idea what the scene was really about. I was also unsure if Paul was a hero or a villian. As long as you admit it is POSSIBLE for new younger, less experienced readers to pick up KJA and move towards dune, that is a start. A possible valid point.


    You're not SUPPOSED to know if Paul is a hero or a villian!! :lol: That's the ENTIRE point of Dune, and you only find out when you read Messiah.

    The plotline in Dune is pretty straight forward, not totally sure where it was loosing you.

    Either way - the point is that someone could be continueing the series now, and maybe even making it a little easier for certain people to grasp - WITHOUT completely contradicting all of Dune, and all of FH's messages. Why are those necessary elements of making Dune accessable to younger readers?


    It is just one way of doing it. And it has worked. Is it that hard to admit he has done this? Debate the value of it all you want, he has done it
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    Re: KJA has brought in younger readers to Dune.

    Postby KJA Special Forces » 24 Sep 2009 15:34

    A Thing of Eternity wrote:
    KJA Special Forces wrote:
    SandChigger wrote:Bringing younger, dumber(?), ADD/modern-media-life-addled readers to the scene does nothing for ME


    I think that Dune is something as many people as possible should know about. And KJA has helped that happen.


    I dissagree - more people knowing about a mediocre series (which is all Dune is now, if you include the new books) doesn't count for much. If new people were being brought to an amazing series my entire veiw would be different.


    Fair enough, But if they use KJA as a bridge to FH dune. That is still the high quality series you speak of. It will always stand alone. But if KJA brings a reader to Frank, has that not improved this persons chance of reading the old Dune?
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    Re: KJA has brought in younger readers to Dune.

    Postby SandChigger » 24 Sep 2009 15:35

    KJA Special Forces wrote:I think that Dune is something as many people as possible should know about. And KJA has helped that happen.

    REAL Dune is something people should know about, yes.

    McDune, not at all.


    Frank Herbert brought his best game to the writing. (Not something KJA will ever be guilty or even accused of.) Why should less be expected of readers?!

    If people can't handle Dune AS IS, without the dumbing down, let them go read KJA's Saggy Suns books, or some equivalent shit.

    "We're dumbing it down to bring in more mone...er, readers, yeah, new fans and readers!"

    Self-serving bullshit.
    I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

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    Re: KJA has brought in younger readers to Dune.

    Postby SandChigger » 24 Sep 2009 15:37

    The "Dune" new readers are being brought to through McDune is not consistent with Dune.

    KJA does no service to these readers. He does no service to Frank Herbert or his legacy. He services himself only.
    Last edited by SandChigger on 24 Sep 2009 15:37, edited 1 time in total.
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    Re: KJA has brought in younger readers to Dune.

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 24 Sep 2009 15:37

    And he's turned Dune into garbage by doing it. I don't care if 5% more children have read Dune earlier than they would have without dumbed down versions.

    - Plots that have NOTHING to do with the resolution.

    - Characters that do not behave in a way that matches how KJA tells us to veiw them (he should know all about "show don't tell" characterization, but he blatently ignores it, or more likely, doesn't understand what it means)

    - TERRIBLE dialogue, I myself suck at writing dialogue, and I can kick KJA's ass any day.

    - Contradict the original books on almost EVERY page, showing a giant lack of respect for Frank, if they couldn't even be bothered to research the Dune universe they shouldn't be writing in it.

    - Contradict his messages. This is the most unforgivable.
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    Re: KJA has brought in younger readers to Dune.

    Postby KJA Special Forces » 24 Sep 2009 15:38

    SandChigger wrote:
    KJA Special Forces wrote:I think that Dune is something as many people as possible should know about. And KJA has helped that happen.

    REAL Dune is something people should know about, yes.

    McDune, not at all.


    Frank Herbert brought his best game to the writing. (Not something KJA will ever be guilty or even accused of.) Why should less be expected of readers?!

    If people can't handle Dune AS IS, without the dumbing down, let them go read KJA's Saggy Suns books, or some equivalent shit.

    "We're dumbing it down to bring in more mone...er, readers, yeah, new fans and readers!"

    Self-serving bullshit.


    You were young once. You did not always have the ability to read high level writing. There has to be a learning curve.
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    Re: KJA has brought in younger readers to Dune.

    Postby SandChigger » 24 Sep 2009 15:46

    KJA Special Forces wrote:You were young once. You did not always have the ability to read high level writing. There has to be a learning curve.

    Ah, so these McDune books really ARE the famous "Child's History" of Dune?! :laughing:

    Yeah, I was young once. But I was never stupid. ;)

    If these books are YA, they should be labelled and marketed as such, no? :)
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    Re: KJA has brought in younger readers to Dune.

    Postby Nekhrun » 24 Sep 2009 15:48

    KJA Special Forces wrote:
    SandChigger wrote:
    KJA Special Forces wrote:I think that Dune is something as many people as possible should know about. And KJA has helped that happen.

    REAL Dune is something people should know about, yes.

    McDune, not at all.


    Frank Herbert brought his best game to the writing. (Not something KJA will ever be guilty or even accused of.) Why should less be expected of readers?!

    If people can't handle Dune AS IS, without the dumbing down, let them go read KJA's Saggy Suns books, or some equivalent shit.

    "We're dumbing it down to bring in more mone...er, readers, yeah, new fans and readers!"

    Self-serving bullshit.


    You were young once. You did not always have the ability to read high level writing. There has to be a learning curve.
    Yeah, so a kid reads The Giver, or some Neil Gaiman age appropriate stories and then moves on to Dune. You don't have to give someone Mello Yellow so they'll know how awesome Mountain Dew is. Give them something good right away.
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    Re: KJA has brought in younger readers to Dune.

    Postby Bijaz » 24 Sep 2009 15:53

    KJA Special Forces wrote:One thing that KJA has done, that I think is valid, is he has been able to make Dune more accessable to a younger generation of readers. I think this is a valid addition to the dune fan base. The reason that younger readers can handle KJA more so then FH is as you guys point out often, FH used far more advanced vocabulary and story telling techniques that can be confussing for younger/less experienced readers.

    I am sure many of you such as Freakzilla read dune at a young age (13 for Freakzilla) That is amazing, I think Dune is a college level reading however, can some of you guys agree that bringing in younger readers is a good thing for a work of fiction?


    If FH is too complex for younger readers, then what's the point of bringing in younger readers?
    The only benefit would be the direct benefit to the copyright holders from a financial point of view.
    (Clearly, Kevin doesn't have the ability to retranslate Frank's ideas or rewrite Dune for a "younger" audience. If you take away the character names and places what Kevin and (Brian) have produced is campy B movie science fiction)

    Now, what is clear is you only talk about Kevin and don't seem interested in Brian at all.
    Thanks for validating that one point for us :twisted:
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    Re: KJA has brought in younger readers to Dune.

    Postby Leto » 24 Sep 2009 15:56

    I might read Dune at 13/14.
    I read it in my mothertongue (i.e. french) after playing at Cryo's first Dune PC game.
    Since this first reading, I must have read the Chronicles about 3 or 4 times. Each time (cause I grown up) I discovered something new. It was magic!
    I recognize I grew up in a favored social environment (I read a lot and love it) and that's why I read it quite easily. Of course, I didn't understand the very purpose of book, but I wanted to read it 'cause I loved the PC game.

    I know some young people who lived the same experiment with LOTR. I never heard it was a non difficult book to read. But they loved the film, and want to read it. There was no need to write a dumbed version.

    Nowadays paradigm is "I want it now, all and easily. I do not have to make effort. Sorry but it doesn't work like that... If it means I am an elitist, it's not a problem... In the same way, do you think we have to write a dumbed version of Kant, Marx or other philosopher's work? No, 'cause deaden people's mind never drive them intelligent!
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    Re: KJA has brought in younger readers to Dune.

    Postby TheDukester » 24 Sep 2009 16:06

    Bijaz wrote:If FH is too complex for younger readers, then what's the point of bringing in younger readers?

    This is one of those statements that is so fundamental that you actually have to say it to realize how true it is.

    Post of the day.
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    Re: KJA has brought in younger readers to Dune.

    Postby SandChigger » 24 Sep 2009 16:18

    Seconded! :D
    I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

    I don't like every writer's style; for instance, I have never been able to get through Ursula LeGuin, China Mieville, or Iain Banks, all of whom are critical darlings. —KJA

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    Re: KJA has brought in younger readers to Dune.

    Postby Futar » 24 Sep 2009 18:25

    FH Dune too complex? I read GEoD first and still came back for more...
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    Re: KJA has brought in younger readers to Dune.

    Postby SadisticCynic » 24 Sep 2009 19:01

    Futar wrote:FH Dune too complex? I read GEoD first and still came back for more...


    :clap:

    I knew Dune was philosophical when I read it and as I said elsewhere, it is like waking up. It is multi-layered with the bottom layer being an excellent story. Deep thought is not necessary for Dune as a story; Dune encourages you to think for yourself almost the same way the 'tangential question' does. It just keeps getting better from then on.
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