A Dance With Dragons - SPOILER ALERT!!!

Image
    Non-dune discussion

Moderators: ᴶᵛᵀᴬ, Omphalos, Freakzilla

User avatar
A Thing of Eternity
Posts: 6090
Joined: 08 Apr 2008 15:35
Location: Calgary Alberta

A Dance With Dragons - SPOILER ALERT!!!

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 03 Aug 2011 18:20

Ok, we need this thread to exist.

I haven't read that interview Mandy posted yet, but seriously, if Jon Snow is dead I'm going to shit my godsdamned pants.

Loving where the Dany plotline is going, for a while I didn't really see how that whole Eastern continent plotline was going to work out, but now I'm starting to see some light at the end of that tunnel. Sure, she's got a major fleet in her bay... Drogon will probably reduce that to ask in about 15 minutes though!

Not sure what Tyrion's gonna do now though, he's kinda fucked since the other 2 dragons were released, already signed all the contracts to perform a jailbreak for the dragons...
Image

User avatar
SadisticCynic
Posts: 2026
Joined: 07 Apr 2009 09:28
Location: In Time or in Space?

Re: A Dance With Dragons - SPOILER ALERT!!!

Postby SadisticCynic » 03 Aug 2011 18:28

I knew it was the thing with Jon that was messing with you. I totally didn't see that one coming. But I also recall that Lady Melisandre is a Red Priestess, kinda like Thoros of Myr... :wink:

Not sure how the Dany thing is going to turn out, especially since she's not the only remaining Targaryen anymore.

It'll be interesting to see how the Iron Throne handles things from here on in, seeing as most of the main characters and allegiances have been replaced.

Also, Ramsay Bolton sent that message to Jon, about having defeated Stannis - does anyone buy it?
Ah English, the language where pretty much any word can have any meaning! - A Thing of Eternity

User avatar
A Thing of Eternity
Posts: 6090
Joined: 08 Apr 2008 15:35
Location: Calgary Alberta

Re: A Dance With Dragons - SPOILER ALERT!!!

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 03 Aug 2011 18:44

SadisticCynic wrote:I knew it was the thing with Jon that was messing with you. I totally didn't see that one coming. But I also recall that Lady Melisandre is a Red Priestess, kinda like Thoros of Myr... :wink:


True, true... seems to be pretty effective necromancy too, you don't even end up like a zombie, you're just alive again.

Not sure how the Dany thing is going to turn out, especially since she's not the only remaining Targaryen anymore.


Now that I'm done I want to chat with my friend who finished the book ahead of me, because he thinks she might not be Azor Ahai (or however that's spelled), but I'm not sure why, I remember reading something towards the end that I thought might suggest that, but now I can't remember what it was!

It'll be interesting to see how the Iron Throne handles things from here on in, seeing as most of the main characters and allegiances have been replaced.


I thought everything was kinda neat and tidy there right until the end of the epilogue (shoulda known better...), but now that the Regent is dead it's all fucked again, who the hell knows what's going to happen?

I know they were all unsure which way Dorne would go, but I think it's pretty clear cut that they'll go for the Dragons, unless dude's son getting killed by an actual dragon pisses him off too much, or he gets killed off and someone crazy takes over. Which is possible.

Also, Ramsay Bolton sent that message to Jon, about having defeated Stannis - does anyone buy it?


Not totally, I think the grain of truth about Mance in that letter was meant both by the character to worry Snow, and by the author to worry the reader. But that said, I think a dead Stannis and living Boltons makes for better plot from here out, Stannis is a dick anyways. If the Boltons are dead then we have no real major antagonist in the North, other than the Others, and I don't think Martin is going to begin their invasion in the next book (though he might, depends how long he wants to depict that conflict as).

Hey, also, anyone think Cold Hands is Jon and Bran's uncle?

Also, I think this series needs eight books...
Image

User avatar
SadisticCynic
Posts: 2026
Joined: 07 Apr 2009 09:28
Location: In Time or in Space?

Re: A Dance With Dragons - SPOILER ALERT!!!

Postby SadisticCynic » 03 Aug 2011 19:04

Yes I also thought that Cold Hands will turn out to be Benjen Stark. Especially since in the Appendices he is referred to as "presumed dead" even after all this time.

As to Dany being Azor Ahai (can't remember how to spell that one either) Maester Aemon seemed pretty convinced of it, although his reasoning was that the usual interpretation of the prophecy assumed a male, whereas Dragons can be male or female at need, so Dany could actually be a potential fulfiller. But Young Griff throws a spanner into that one.
Although now that I think about it I can't remember if that's the same prophecy as the Azor Ahai one...

I'm also still rather curious as to what's going to happen with Rickon. He is rarely even mentioned anymore.

Arya's story is getting really interesting though, I have no idea where he's going to go with it.

Regarding Dorne, there is the possibility of him getting killed off, but if there is now a male Targaryen this means his original plan regarding the Arianne is live again, which will be fun.
Ah English, the language where pretty much any word can have any meaning! - A Thing of Eternity

User avatar
Mandy
Cat Herder
Posts: 1700
Joined: 08 Feb 2008 20:18
Contact:

Re: A Dance With Dragons - SPOILER ALERT!!!

Postby Mandy » 03 Aug 2011 19:13

Jon Snow could be Azor Ahai. When Melisandre looked for Azor Ahai in her fires all she saw was "snow", so that could be a hint. PLus we're still not sure who Jon's parents are, if Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark are his parents, then he's also a dragon.
As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Hypatia approaches one.

User avatar
SadisticCynic
Posts: 2026
Joined: 07 Apr 2009 09:28
Location: In Time or in Space?

Re: A Dance With Dragons - SPOILER ALERT!!!

Postby SadisticCynic » 03 Aug 2011 19:19

At one point we are told who his parents are. When Davos turns up adrift on some island (I've forgotten its name now, but it's before he gets to White Harbor to see Lord Manderly) he talks to the lord there who tells him that Ned Stark was passing through and was injured (or was it shipwrecked?). He was nursed back to health by a young woman who he also gave a child. He named him Jon after Jon Arryn.
Ah English, the language where pretty much any word can have any meaning! - A Thing of Eternity

User avatar
A Thing of Eternity
Posts: 6090
Joined: 08 Apr 2008 15:35
Location: Calgary Alberta

Re: A Dance With Dragons - SPOILER ALERT!!!

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 03 Aug 2011 19:22

I'm in the camp that says Snow is Targaryen for sure, even though he doesn't have the look (based on the whole "hair colour" arguement for Rob's kids, either the Author isn't up on genetics or he figured the characters wouldn't be so he could get away with that one). As for him being Azor Ahai though, he burns in fire, Dany doesn't which points to her.

But that actually brings up a question for me, in the last Dany chapter she remembers not being burned by the flame, but earlier in the chapter it talks about her arms being burned and healing, so what the F did I miss there? Is the idea that she simply wasn't burned very badly, but did still get a little cooked? It is bloody dragon fire after all.


Ooooo, and I LOVE how the dragons pretty much bleed fire.
Image

User avatar
A Thing of Eternity
Posts: 6090
Joined: 08 Apr 2008 15:35
Location: Calgary Alberta

Re: A Dance With Dragons - SPOILER ALERT!!!

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 03 Aug 2011 19:25

SadisticCynic wrote:At one point we are told who his parents are. When Davos turns up adrift on some island (I've forgotten its name now, but it's before he gets to White Harbor to see Lord Manderly) he talks to the lord there who tells him that Ned Stark was passing through and was injured (or was it shipwrecked?). He was nursed back to health by a young woman who he also gave a child. He named him Jon after Jon Arryn.


Oops, you ninja posted me on that one. I remember that chapter but I don't buy it, not first hand information as far as I remember, that was just something the lord had heard? I don't think Ned would have made such a big deal out of not telling Jon who his mother was if it wasn't something that needed to be kept secret, and that wouldn't really need to be.
Image

User avatar
A Thing of Eternity
Posts: 6090
Joined: 08 Apr 2008 15:35
Location: Calgary Alberta

Re: A Dance With Dragons - SPOILER ALERT!!!

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 03 Aug 2011 19:27

And yeah, what IS up with Rickon? Davos is after him now apparently, and it looks like he's probably ended up in Skagos (which is where men eat men right?).

I don't really see him playing any major role other than as a device for certain plotlines. That alone could be big though, because if Theon admits publicly that he didn't kill Bran or Rickon, then that could allow all kinds of shit to hit the fan in the North.
Image

User avatar
Mandy
Cat Herder
Posts: 1700
Joined: 08 Feb 2008 20:18
Contact:

Re: A Dance With Dragons - SPOILER ALERT!!!

Postby Mandy » 03 Aug 2011 19:29

GRRM is famous for using unreliable narrators, so you can't take what a character says happened as what really happened, sometimes.
As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Hypatia approaches one.

User avatar
SadisticCynic
Posts: 2026
Joined: 07 Apr 2009 09:28
Location: In Time or in Space?

Re: A Dance With Dragons - SPOILER ALERT!!!

Postby SadisticCynic » 03 Aug 2011 19:43

A Thing of Eternity wrote:
I don't really see him playing any major role other than as a device for certain plotlines. That alone could be big though, because if Theon admits publicly that he didn't kill Bran or Rickon, then that could allow all kinds of shit to hit the fan in the North.


Plus the fake Arya...

Book Six is going to be so good.
Ah English, the language where pretty much any word can have any meaning! - A Thing of Eternity

User avatar
Robspierre
Posts: 2160
Joined: 19 Feb 2008 10:49
Location: Cascadia

Re: A Dance With Dragons - SPOILER ALERT!!!

Postby Robspierre » 03 Aug 2011 22:13

Some other food for thought.

When the Targaryen's first came to Westeros, it was one male with his two sisters and the three dragons. Now we have Dany with three dragons. She needs her brothers to join her. The dragon colors are red green and white. Bran is a "Greenman," and Jon Snow is often referred to in terms of white.

I can see Dany being joined by her "brothers" when she finally reaches the shores of Westeros.


Finally, loved the Monty Python references. "Shrubbery!'

Rob

User avatar
A Thing of Eternity
Posts: 6090
Joined: 08 Apr 2008 15:35
Location: Calgary Alberta

Re: A Dance With Dragons - SPOILER ALERT!!!

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 03 Aug 2011 23:46

I thought the dragons' colours were black green and white? (not that that matters to your point at all, plus I'm not known for remembering a lot of details!).

Earlier on I'd kinda thought Bran might be in the running for a dragon rider position, unsure now.
Image

User avatar
Robspierre
Posts: 2160
Joined: 19 Feb 2008 10:49
Location: Cascadia

Re: A Dance With Dragons - SPOILER ALERT!!!

Postby Robspierre » 04 Aug 2011 00:24

could be black gah, sometimes a reread is necessary.

Rob

User avatar
A Thing of Eternity
Posts: 6090
Joined: 08 Apr 2008 15:35
Location: Calgary Alberta

Re: A Dance With Dragons - SPOILER ALERT!!!

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 04 Aug 2011 01:36

I just wiki'd it, black he is!

Man I'd like to know where this is all going... I also am really curious whether the Others will breach the wall. I'm pretty damned sure they will, especially if that wildling was telling the truth about that horn being the wrong one. Plus, if they never get past the wall it won't be high enough stakes.


One thing I'm waiting to see more about, but I have my own theories, is the situation with the gods. The Seven seem to probably just be outright nonexistant, could be the same with the drowned god and other minor ones, but everyone's magic works apparently - so my guess is that magic is just inherant to the world, not necessarily god-derived. R'hollar (spelling?) seems pretty damned real, and the Others' god I'm thinking is real, due to what Martin has said about the long winters having a magical explanation.
Image

User avatar
A Thing of Eternity
Posts: 6090
Joined: 08 Apr 2008 15:35
Location: Calgary Alberta

Re: A Dance With Dragons - SPOILER ALERT!!!

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 04 Aug 2011 02:01

I figured I'd check out the major forum for ASoIaF since this is such a great place, why wouldn't that place be? WRONG. Don't think I'll go back, huge pile of whiners, "anti-fanboys" (just made that term up, basically people who bash things for the sake of being the opposite of people who like something), and basically trolls.

Seriously, I read the first page of at least 20 threads, and pretty much every single one of them was bashing the books. Totally weird.

Oh well, I like it, and I'm not known for giving a flying fuck about whether people like what I like!
Image

User avatar
SadisticCynic
Posts: 2026
Joined: 07 Apr 2009 09:28
Location: In Time or in Space?

Re: A Dance With Dragons - SPOILER ALERT!!!

Postby SadisticCynic » 04 Aug 2011 08:18

Jacurutu was the first forum I'd ever bothered with - I wasn't particularly Internet savvy when I first joined. It was quite a shock when perusing other forums I found that the average intelligence here is just so much higher.

Seriously, just the basic ability to read seems to be missing from alot of places, which is rather odd considering they are based on text.

Anyway, I feel certain the Others will breach the Wall, since the Wall looks like it won't have a capable command for awhile.

As to Bran, the last we heard he was on the path to becoming a tree-person-thing, which might make it a little difficult to mount a dragon.

I like the idea of a Jon/Dany team-up though. :D
Ah English, the language where pretty much any word can have any meaning! - A Thing of Eternity

User avatar
Ampoliros
Posts: 2518
Joined: 14 Mar 2008 11:22
Location: I think we took a wrong turn...

Re: A Dance With Dragons - SPOILER ALERT!!!

Postby Ampoliros » 09 Aug 2011 00:44

FINISHED!

Well, I'd just like you guys to know, that I have it all figured out, I know where its all going, and I'm going to let you all in on some choice tidbits. One second, I have to run to the privy real fast.

<THWOCK>



joking aside, holy shit!

Bran, awesome

Arya, awesome!

Tyrion. HEY KEVIN, GRRM CAN SEND HIS BEST CHARACTER OFF TO PLAY THE FOOL, "JOIN THE CIRCUS" IF YOU WILL AND HAVE IT BE A GREAT STORY, NOT A COP OUT.

Stannis. D-e-d dead. War of the Five Kings is over.

Jon. I saw it coming (Kinda). I liked the whole Julius Caesar death for Jon. I know you guys think he'll get raised but I think I have a better idea. Instead of a burial the Crows dump his body over the wall (traitor and a turncloak who belongs on that side of the wall). Now we have a POV for the white walkers, and a possible reunion for Bran and Jon, and their Uncle Benjen "Coldhands" Stark.

I'm sure the red priests aren't the good guys they say they are, and I'm pretty sure they have something to do with the Doom of Valyria and the long seasons. While the Others certainly are evil I think were in for a war of Ice and Fire (see what i did there) more than a war of good and evil. The others have the wall and the north, but no one has really ventured into the north. With Azor Ahai and the Other destroyed, the unnatural seasons should abate.

Religions:

Wierwood: the children of the earth, old gods, friends of men, prey of the others and the God of Light.

The Seven: oops, fake religion, only thing going for it is the fanaticism of its followers, which just got permission to form an army.

R'hllor: God of Fire and Light. Good at reanimation...kinda like the others. Priests are fanatics who purge their enemies and wield their power in a very visible manner.

Ramsay Bolton. Martin creates someone who makes you feel sorry for Theon Turncloak Douchebag. I believe the letter he sent Jon, I don't see Ramsay as someone capable of lying when he's in a rage. (He's certainly cunning outside of that situation as we've seen, but I think the loss of "Arya" tied with the fact that its not really Arya might have made him snap. (y'know, more...)

The spider, kickin ass and taking heads. Loved his reappearance. Interesting to see that he's very much loyal to 'the realm' and nothing else. Why'd he have to kill the only sane Lannister left in Westeros?

I'm hoping King Tommen will bend the knee to the new Dragon, so Ser Pounce will live.
Semper Fidelis Tyrannosaurus

User avatar
Ampoliros
Posts: 2518
Joined: 14 Mar 2008 11:22
Location: I think we took a wrong turn...

Re: A Dance With Dragons - SPOILER ALERT!!!

Postby Ampoliros » 09 Aug 2011 13:56

Well smack me for an idiot.

Reading some other discussions revealed 2 things I missed, one completely.

I knew Lord Manderly was up to something at the wedding, but never figured it out.

Frey Pies. "The North Remembers." Fatass badass! How did I miss that?


Mance and the spearwives were the Singer and Washerwomen at Winterfell. /facepalm. How did I not see that AT ALL?

There is a theory going around that Tyrion is also a Targeryan bastard. I can see the political side of it but it doesn't really fit the mythos of Tyrion. I think it fits him better to be the "bastardized" son of a Lannister. Tywin wouldn't have given a shit about anything Tyrion did if he really was a bastard. It was the fact that he WAS a Lannister that pissed off Tywin.


Also, I want a Barriston Selmy Action figure. I love that guy.
Semper Fidelis Tyrannosaurus

User avatar
A Thing of Eternity
Posts: 6090
Joined: 08 Apr 2008 15:35
Location: Calgary Alberta

Re: A Dance With Dragons - SPOILER ALERT!!!

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 09 Aug 2011 14:13

Yeah, Manderly at the wedding I was SURE, like 100% sure that he's poison'd the shit out of everyone including himself... then they were all alive still... not sure what his game is, but he's going to fuck people up for sure.
Image

User avatar
Mandy
Cat Herder
Posts: 1700
Joined: 08 Feb 2008 20:18
Contact:

Re: A Dance With Dragons - SPOILER ALERT!!!

Postby Mandy » 09 Aug 2011 15:08

I don't know about Jon getting raised from the dead, but I do doubt that he's actually been killed. The chapter faded out without confirming, then GRRM's reply in that interview makes me think he's not dead. Of course his body could be dead, and he could have warged into some nearby animal or something.
As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Hypatia approaches one.

User avatar
Ampoliros
Posts: 2518
Joined: 14 Mar 2008 11:22
Location: I think we took a wrong turn...

Re: A Dance With Dragons - SPOILER ALERT!!!

Postby Ampoliros » 09 Aug 2011 15:09

Theory, what if the wall wasn't built to keep the others in, but to keep their enemies out?
Semper Fidelis Tyrannosaurus

User avatar
A Thing of Eternity
Posts: 6090
Joined: 08 Apr 2008 15:35
Location: Calgary Alberta

Re: A Dance With Dragons - SPOILER ALERT!!!

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 09 Aug 2011 19:03

Ampoliros wrote:Stannis. D-e-d dead. War of the Five Kings is over.




Man I hope so, I can't stand that bloody guy.


Jon. I saw it coming (Kinda). I liked the whole Julius Caesar death for Jon. I know you guys think he'll get raised but I think I have a better idea. Instead of a burial the Crows dump his body over the wall (traitor and a turncloak who belongs on that side of the wall). Now we have a POV for the white walkers, and a possible reunion for Bran and Jon, and their Uncle Benjen "Coldhands" Stark.


Would be sweet, not placing any bets on it though!

I'm sure the red priests aren't the good guys they say they are, and I'm pretty sure they have something to do with the Doom of Valyria and the long seasons. While the Others certainly are evil I think were in for a war of Ice and Fire (see what i did there) more than a war of good and evil. The others have the wall and the north, but no one has really ventured into the north. With Azor Ahai and the Other destroyed, the unnatural seasons should abate.


I dig the idea of both gods kicking each other's asses to the point that the world is simply left without them. The god of light, or at least his followers, is/are definitely (an) asshat(s), but who knows what the deal is at this point, so little has been revealed.



Ramsay Bolton. Martin creates someone who makes you feel sorry for Theon Turncloak Douchebag. I believe the letter he sent Jon, I don't see Ramsay as someone capable of lying when he's in a rage. (He's certainly cunning outside of that situation as we've seen, but I think the loss of "Arya" tied with the fact that its not really Arya might have made him snap. (y'know, more...)


Hard to say, I'm still torn on whether that part of the letter was true.



The spider, kickin ass and taking heads. Loved his reappearance. Interesting to see that he's very much loyal to 'the realm' and nothing else. Why'd he have to kill the only sane Lannister left in Westeros?


I liked that chapter because his game is finally laid bare, up until this point it's been obvious that he's for the realm, but it's not been obvious what the hell he was aiming for with all his scheming. Now it's fairly clear he was for the Targaryans all along, except for that whole assasination attempt on Dany... more layers to this sub-plot I'm sure are coming that will be surprising.

I'm hoping King Tommen will bend the knee to the new Dragon, so Ser Pounce will live.


Ha! Not now that Cersie might be back in charge, they're all dead people walking for sure now.



Ampoliros wrote:I knew Lord Manderly was up to something at the wedding, but never figured it out.


Wait, the way you phrase this makes it sound like you now know what he was up to, what is it?!

Mance and the spearwives were the Singer and Washerwomen at Winterfell. /facepalm. How did I not see that AT ALL?


Ha, yeah, I missed it (somehow, blatantly obvious from the start...) right up until one of the women revealed herself aas a spearwife. Felt pretty dumb!

There is a theory going around that Tyrion is also a Targeryan bastard. I can see the political side of it but it doesn't really fit the mythos of Tyrion. I think it fits him better to be the "bastardized" son of a Lannister. Tywin wouldn't have given a shit about anything Tyrion did if he really was a bastard. It was the fact that he WAS a Lannister that pissed off Tywin.


Yeah, that's a crackpot theory for sure. I've heard some people say he might be Azor Ahai, but I definitely don't see how the Lannisters would have sheltered a Targaryan...

Ampoliros wrote:Theory, what if the wall wasn't built to keep the others in, but to keep their enemies out?



Well, while the beginnings of the wall are lost in antiquity, I think we can buy the story, plus there are records of times when the Watch would add to the wall every year.
Image

User avatar
SadisticCynic
Posts: 2026
Joined: 07 Apr 2009 09:28
Location: In Time or in Space?

Re: A Dance With Dragons - SPOILER ALERT!!!

Postby SadisticCynic » 09 Aug 2011 19:25

On Varys attempt on Dany: He might have been for the Targaryens all along, but he also might have known about Young Griff, so assassinating Dany and Viserys just adds to his credibility in the eyes of the Iron Throne, while in the background he plots to bring back the Targaryens.

On Cersei: I don't think she'll be fully in charge again. I reckon the High Septon's punishment finally broke her. She was breaking all the way through A Feast For Crows, and probably since Joffrey's death; I almost felt sorry for her.

Another thing that hasn't really come up, mostly because it doesn't happen in this book: Jaime is turning into a really interesting character I think.
Ah English, the language where pretty much any word can have any meaning! - A Thing of Eternity

User avatar
Mandy
Cat Herder
Posts: 1700
Joined: 08 Feb 2008 20:18
Contact:

Re: A Dance With Dragons - SPOILER ALERT!!!

Postby Mandy » 09 Aug 2011 20:15

A Thing of Eternity"

[quote="Ampoliros wrote:
I knew Lord Manderly was up to something at the wedding, but never figured it out.


Wait, the way you phrase this makes it sound like you now know what he was up to, what is it?!



He fed Frey pie to the Freys :)

(fuck, I mess up the quotes)
As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Hypatia approaches one.


Return to “˲”