George Lucas should be sorry

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Crizius
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George Lucas should be sorry

Postby Crizius » 20 Feb 2014 10:26

Hey guys. I am not sure how many of you have heard about this story, but Shia LaBeouf suposedly is sorry for ripping off Daniel Clowes’ 2007 comic Justin M. Damiano, including direct quotes, dialogues and the narrative structure. Well George Lucas should be sorry for ripping off off Dune.
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lotek
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Re: George Lucas should be sorry

Postby lotek » 20 Feb 2014 13:28

It has been debated a few times here I think, but all in all to me they are completely different stories, even though there are similarities, Star Wars doesn't come near to Dune's depth and complexity for one, and I've never myself thought that Paul had anything in common with wimpy Luke.

I think G.Lucas should really apologize for the crap SW prequels he made...

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Re: George Lucas should be sorry

Postby Freakzilla » 20 Feb 2014 14:02

If you have a chance, watch The People vs. George Lucas:

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Naib
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Re: George Lucas should be sorry

Postby Naib » 20 Feb 2014 15:00

I agree. Lucas needs to apologise for many more things than the passing inspiration of Dune. Starting with Ewoks.

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Redstar
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Re: George Lucas should be sorry

Postby Redstar » 02 Mar 2014 16:11

The most blatant things taken from Dune can, at best, be seen as homages. The rest are genre archetypes that are commonly found in these types of works.

I do agree that Lucas owes a lot to Frank's works, but the differences are enough that a (smart) reader can look past them. A smart adaptation could easily distance itself from Star Wars as well.

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Re: George Lucas should be sorry

Postby Omphalos » 03 Mar 2014 16:16

Redstar wrote:The most blatant things taken from Dune can, at best, be seen as homages. The rest are genre archetypes that are commonly found in these types of works.

I do agree that Lucas owes a lot to Frank's works, but the differences are enough that a (smart) reader can look past them. A smart adaptation could easily distance itself from Star Wars as well.


Perhaps. But there are enough direct ripoffs that it bothers me. Alia/Leia, for example.

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Jodorowsky's Acolyte
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Re: George Lucas should be sorry

Postby Jodorowsky's Acolyte » 03 Mar 2014 17:15

Omphalos wrote:
Redstar wrote:The most blatant things taken from Dune can, at best, be seen as homages. The rest are genre archetypes that are commonly found in these types of works.

I do agree that Lucas owes a lot to Frank's works, but the differences are enough that a (smart) reader can look past them. A smart adaptation could easily distance itself from Star Wars as well.


Perhaps. But there are enough direct ripoffs that it bothers me. Alia/Leia, for example.


Seriously? You think that "Leia" counts as a rip-off of "Alia"? That's... kind of a strange complaint, but then I don't know what inspired Lucas to use the name Leia. (Checks quickly) They're both of Hebrew descent, but their meanings are different. Alia means to "ascend; to go up," and Leia means "delicate; weary." Besides the fact that they both have Hebrew names, and they are both the sisters to the messianic protagonists, they're hardly the same. Alia is a freaky child who likes to freak everyone out with her smarts and powers; Leia is a sassy chick into German hairstyles who nearly has an ill-fated romance with her brother, prefers the company of scruffy-looking nerf herders, and potentially could be a Jedi but really doesn't have much interest in it.... One could argue that the Idaho ghola is the closest thing to a nerf-herder when he flirts with Alia, but he doesn't have the personality, or nearly as much the best lines, of Han Solo. (Harrison Ford always sounds hilarious when he's angry: "We-are-going-to-DIE!" "OW! CHEWIE!")

I have checked out the Star Wars inspirations site (I forgot where to find it) which details a lot of inspirations taken from Dune, including the subtle ones, for Star Wars. I am still surprised to learn that Jabba the Hutt does borrow traits of Leto II (I know others wouldn't be quite so surprised, but I envisioned Leto II as being more like the rendition on the paperback edition rather than like a Hutt), and I find it interesting that the Jedi have some abilities in common with the Bene Gesserit. Still, I think it's pretty wasteful to think of Star Wars as a ripoff of Dune when it's pretty much structurally different from Dune. Some might feel that if Star Wars hadn't been made, then perhaps there would be a better chance for Dune or Foundation to be made into films. In my opinion, the making and release of Star Wars helped open the door for other possible unique sci-fi films and adaptations: it's just that the Hollywood system was, and is unfortunately, still narrow minded on the possibilities of sci-fi cinema.

The only crime I'd say Lucas has done was to not go all the way with the ambitions that originally came with Star Wars. As the Oddworld games tried to be, Star Wars was supposed to be set in a vast universe where other stories were going on, not just Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker. That, and he ruined Anakin Skywalker's backstory by making him into an extremely whiny stalker, with the limited brains of Achilles and penchant for dorky lines.

Oh, before I go. Whoever fixed the Jacurutu forums, thanks! :wink:
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Redstar
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Re: George Lucas should be sorry

Postby Redstar » 04 Mar 2014 00:35

Omphalos wrote:
Redstar wrote:The most blatant things taken from Dune can, at best, be seen as homages. The rest are genre archetypes that are commonly found in these types of works.

I do agree that Lucas owes a lot to Frank's works, but the differences are enough that a (smart) reader can look past them. A smart adaptation could easily distance itself from Star Wars as well.


Perhaps. But there are enough direct ripoffs that it bothers me. Alia/Leia, for example.

The ripoff that irked me the most was Padme, like Chani, dying while birthing twins. It still helped that Dune's situation was much more emotional and more realistic for its setting. The same could be said for much of what Frank did first that Lucas took later.

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Jodorowsky's Acolyte
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Re: George Lucas should be sorry

Postby Jodorowsky's Acolyte » 04 Mar 2014 05:16

Redstar wrote:
Omphalos wrote:
Redstar wrote:The most blatant things taken from Dune can, at best, be seen as homages. The rest are genre archetypes that are commonly found in these types of works.

I do agree that Lucas owes a lot to Frank's works, but the differences are enough that a (smart) reader can look past them. A smart adaptation could easily distance itself from Star Wars as well.


Perhaps. But there are enough direct ripoffs that it bothers me. Alia/Leia, for example.

The ripoff that irked me the most was Padme, like Chani, dying while birthing twins. It still helped that Dune's situation was much more emotional and more realistic for its setting. The same could be said for much of what Frank did first that Lucas took later.


I really doubt that Lucas was intentionally borrowing from Dune Messiah for the end of Revenge of the Sith. It was more of a last minute attempt to be emotionally dramatic, especially the part about her dying of a broken heart while giving birth. I prefer Chani dying from a combination of Spice overdose and giving birth to the twins over Padme's death. Superficial similarity to Chani's death is not quite the worst thing about the Padme birthing and death scene. According to Return of the Jedi, Luke and Leia's mother was still alive when Leia was a child, and Leia saw her mother on occasions on Alderaan. (Whether she was living on the same planet in a retirement home, or on another planet, we don't know). Lucas messed with the continuity of the movies by having Padme die too early.

Lucas is in some weird phase in his life where he thinks that by changing the foundations of his universe, he's improving it, and the original trilogy has to conform to those changes.

lotek wrote:It has been debated a few times here I think, but all in all to me they are completely different stories, even though there are similarities, Star Wars doesn't come near to Dune's depth and complexity for one, and I've never myself thought that Paul had anything in common with wimpy Luke.

I think G.Lucas should really apologize for the crap SW prequels he made...


Luke's only wimpy because he's trying to be a superhero, but always overestimates his ability to kick ass. Return of the Jedi was pretty much about him getting into the Zen mode and learning not to be a cocky little prick. He still has a few of those weaknesses which are easily exploitable by his father and the Emperor, which makes him still kind of wimpy. Nevertheless, at least he's trying to be better himself, despite his shortcomings, and ends up becoming the equivalent of Miyamoto Musashi in space.

Paul's far sight into the future and fatalism prevent from ever bettering himself from the dysfunctial accidental messiah tyrant that he convinces himself was forever to be his fate. That is one of the aspects of Dune which definitely makes it far more complex than Star Wars. I still find it strange that Lynch and Herbert were convinced that Star Wars used up a lot of Dune, while the only similarities were very superficial, and ignored the wealth of material Dune had over Star Wars.
'...all those who took part in the rise and fall of the Dune project learned how to fall one and one thousand times with savage obstinacy until learning how to stand. I remember my old father who, while dying happy, said to me: "My son, in my life, I triumphed because I learned how to fail."' -Alejandro Jodorowsky

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Jodorowsky's Acolyte
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Re: George Lucas should be sorry

Postby Jodorowsky's Acolyte » 04 Mar 2014 05:22

Naib wrote:I agree. Lucas needs to apologise for many more things than the passing inspiration of Dune. Starting with Ewoks.


Are fan still upset over the Ewoks? They didn't defeat the Empire, they just beat up a small task force of Imperials! Stop living in the past, man!

At least they were more lovable than the Gungans. It was heresy for me when Jar-Jar dared to quote Wayne's World in a Star Wars movie.
'...all those who took part in the rise and fall of the Dune project learned how to fall one and one thousand times with savage obstinacy until learning how to stand. I remember my old father who, while dying happy, said to me: "My son, in my life, I triumphed because I learned how to fail."' -Alejandro Jodorowsky

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Freakzilla
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Re: George Lucas should be sorry

Postby Freakzilla » 04 Mar 2014 09:00

I hate ewoks.
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Naib
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Re: George Lucas should be sorry

Postby Naib » 04 Mar 2014 09:12

Freakzilla wrote:I hate ewoks.


I imagine they're quite tasty as a tandoori.

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lotek
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Re: George Lucas should be sorry

Postby lotek » 04 Mar 2014 10:07

Freakzilla wrote:I hate ewoks.


What about now?
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Freakzilla
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Re: George Lucas should be sorry

Postby Freakzilla » 04 Mar 2014 11:05

OK, that Ewok is hot. :drool:
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Naib
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Re: George Lucas should be sorry

Postby Naib » 04 Mar 2014 12:35

lotek wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:I hate ewoks.


What about now?
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Jub jub!

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Re: George Lucas should be sorry

Postby Serkanner » 04 Mar 2014 16:34

lotek wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:I hate ewoks.


What about now?
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Is a female Ewok called a Ewokine?
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Re: George Lucas should be sorry

Postby Jodorowsky's Acolyte » 04 Mar 2014 17:53



This is for you, Freak. :)

Not the best video out there, but this one shows how you could find an Ewok in a classic Star Wars game, and blast it to smithereens. For some reason, it's attached to a ball and chain in a claustrophobic room on some private Imperial chamber on planet of very steep rocks.
'...all those who took part in the rise and fall of the Dune project learned how to fall one and one thousand times with savage obstinacy until learning how to stand. I remember my old father who, while dying happy, said to me: "My son, in my life, I triumphed because I learned how to fail."' -Alejandro Jodorowsky

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lotek
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Re: George Lucas should be sorry

Postby lotek » 05 Mar 2014 09:05

Serkanner wrote:
Is a female Ewok called a Ewokine?



Maybe in Germany?
Seine Story wäre der von der Ewokine nicht unähnlich ...
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Re: George Lucas should be sorry

Postby Jabecca » 05 Mar 2014 19:03

Naib wrote:
lotek wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:I hate ewoks.


What about now?
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Jub jub!


Yum Yum!
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Jodorowsky's Acolyte
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Re: George Lucas should be sorry

Postby Jodorowsky's Acolyte » 05 Mar 2014 20:57

Jabecca wrote:
Yum Yum!


That sound! I know that sound....

By the Dark Ones, she has returned! The Hutt of the Dark Dunes with a Billion Young! Repent!
'...all those who took part in the rise and fall of the Dune project learned how to fall one and one thousand times with savage obstinacy until learning how to stand. I remember my old father who, while dying happy, said to me: "My son, in my life, I triumphed because I learned how to fail."' -Alejandro Jodorowsky

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Re: George Lucas should be sorry

Postby Jodorowsky's Acolyte » 16 Apr 2014 18:24

I came across this video some time ago, and thought that it would be nice addition to this old discussion. It analyses how the prophesied messiah archetype is handled in the prequels, as well as make fun of the way the story is executed. Even when he makes fun of the prequels, he states that the ideas behind the story are intriguing. It's all explained in the video.

The guy who narrates it speaks pretty fast, so unless any of you have watched videos on The Escapist like Zero Punctuation, be prepared.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/the-big-picture/9004-Destined-for-Disappointment-Part-2
'...all those who took part in the rise and fall of the Dune project learned how to fall one and one thousand times with savage obstinacy until learning how to stand. I remember my old father who, while dying happy, said to me: "My son, in my life, I triumphed because I learned how to fail."' -Alejandro Jodorowsky


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