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    Who did they build the nav machine for

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      The people and their technology

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    Who did they build the nav machine for

    Postby SwordMaster » 17 Mar 2009 15:27

    What point in the timeline was the auto navigator machine created?

    why did they build it >> ?

    who did they build it for >> ?
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    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 17 Mar 2009 15:55

    I feel really rusty on this, but wasn't it mentioned in CoD? Or maybe I'm just loosing it and it wasn't mentioned until GEoD...
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    Postby moreh_yeladim » 17 Mar 2009 16:40

    A Thing of Eternity wrote:I feel really rusty on this, but wasn't it mentioned in CoD? Or maybe I'm just loosing it and it wasn't mentioned until GEoD...

    It was GEoD. They built it... to see if they could. Because with the extreme scarcity of the spice Guild shipping was so expensive that they needed to find a way to replace Guild Navigators.
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    Postby Freakzilla » 18 Mar 2009 11:02

    It was late in Leto's reign and yes, it was invented in the no-chamber where Hwi was born.

    When RM Anteac lead the Fish Speaker attack on IX, the people and technology were scattered and this was the true begining of The Scattering.
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    Postby SwordMaster » 18 Mar 2009 18:47

    Freakzilla wrote:It was late in Leto's reign and yes, it was invented in the no-chamber where Hwi was born.

    When RM Anteac lead the Fish Speaker attack on IX, the people and technology were scattered and this was the true begining of The Scattering.


    Interesting point about the true beginning. Safe to say thenby HoD navigators were fairly redundant then?
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    Postby Freakzilla » 18 Mar 2009 19:24

    SwordMaster wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:It was late in Leto's reign and yes, it was invented in the no-chamber where Hwi was born.

    When RM Anteac lead the Fish Speaker attack on IX, the people and technology were scattered and this was the true begining of The Scattering.


    Interesting point about the true beginning. Safe to say thenby HoD navigators were fairly redundant then?


    No, flipping the switch in the Hieghliner cockpit was not all Guild Navigators were good for. The SG never fully trusted the INM either, even in ships with the INM they still had a navigator present. The Guild practiced business as usually, but a lot of their covert sales were lost to the no-ship.

    In the post-Tyrant Old Empire, if you wanted garanteed safe passage your only choice was the SG. If you had dirty work to do, no-ship.
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    Postby SwordMaster » 20 Mar 2009 10:25

    Freakzilla wrote:
    SwordMaster wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:It was late in Leto's reign and yes, it was invented in the no-chamber where Hwi was born.

    When RM Anteac lead the Fish Speaker attack on IX, the people and technology were scattered and this was the true begining of The Scattering.


    Interesting point about the true beginning. Safe to say thenby HoD navigators were fairly redundant then?


    No, flipping the switch in the Hieghliner cockpit was not all Guild Navigators were good for. The SG never fully trusted the INM either, even in ships with the INM they still had a navigator present. The Guild practiced business as usually, but a lot of their covert sales were lost to the no-ship.

    In the post-Tyrant Old Empire, if you wanted garanteed safe passage your only choice was the SG. If you had dirty work to do, no-ship.


    I was thinking with the Siona gene spread their "other" powers were less valuble anc clearly those from the scattering did not need Navigators anymore. I think the SG lost its hold on space travel after this invention. There is little mention of them in CHoD that I can recall... What else were they useful for?
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    Postby Freakzilla » 20 Mar 2009 10:32

    SwordMaster wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:
    SwordMaster wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:It was late in Leto's reign and yes, it was invented in the no-chamber where Hwi was born.

    When RM Anteac lead the Fish Speaker attack on IX, the people and technology were scattered and this was the true begining of The Scattering.


    Interesting point about the true beginning. Safe to say thenby HoD navigators were fairly redundant then?


    No, flipping the switch in the Hieghliner cockpit was not all Guild Navigators were good for. The SG never fully trusted the INM either, even in ships with the INM they still had a navigator present. The Guild practiced business as usually, but a lot of their covert sales were lost to the no-ship.

    In the post-Tyrant Old Empire, if you wanted garanteed safe passage your only choice was the SG. If you had dirty work to do, no-ship.


    I was thinking with the Siona gene spread their "other" powers were less valuble anc clearly those from the scattering did not need Navigators anymore. I think the SG lost its hold on space travel after this invention. There is little mention of them in CHoD that I can recall... What else were they useful for?


    Searching for Duncan Idaho, for one. Providing neutral meeting places (Waff and the Honored Matres), and of course secure banking, communications and shipping.

    They are still a powerfull faction in the Old Empire, they just lost their monopoly. The SG remains the "safe" transportation.
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    Postby SwordMaster » 20 Mar 2009 10:57

    Freakzilla wrote:
    SwordMaster wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:
    SwordMaster wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:It was late in Leto's reign and yes, it was invented in the no-chamber where Hwi was born.

    When RM Anteac lead the Fish Speaker attack on IX, the people and technology were scattered and this was the true begining of The Scattering.


    Interesting point about the true beginning. Safe to say thenby HoD navigators were fairly redundant then?


    No, flipping the switch in the Hieghliner cockpit was not all Guild Navigators were good for. The SG never fully trusted the INM either, even in ships with the INM they still had a navigator present. The Guild practiced business as usually, but a lot of their covert sales were lost to the no-ship.

    In the post-Tyrant Old Empire, if you wanted garanteed safe passage your only choice was the SG. If you had dirty work to do, no-ship.


    I was thinking with the Siona gene spread their "other" powers were less valuble anc clearly those from the scattering did not need Navigators anymore. I think the SG lost its hold on space travel after this invention. There is little mention of them in CHoD that I can recall... What else were they useful for?


    Searching for Duncan Idaho, for one. Providing neutral meeting places (Waff and the Honored Matres), and of course secure banking, communications and shipping.

    They are still a powerfull faction in the Old Empire, they just lost their monopoly. The SG remains the "safe" transportation.


    But the HM used no-ships? Safe to say most of the people of the scattering were transport based in no-ships?
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    Postby Freakzilla » 20 Mar 2009 12:29

    SwordMaster wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:
    SwordMaster wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:
    SwordMaster wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:It was late in Leto's reign and yes, it was invented in the no-chamber where Hwi was born.

    When RM Anteac lead the Fish Speaker attack on IX, the people and technology were scattered and this was the true begining of The Scattering.


    Interesting point about the true beginning. Safe to say thenby HoD navigators were fairly redundant then?


    No, flipping the switch in the Hieghliner cockpit was not all Guild Navigators were good for. The SG never fully trusted the INM either, even in ships with the INM they still had a navigator present. The Guild practiced business as usually, but a lot of their covert sales were lost to the no-ship.

    In the post-Tyrant Old Empire, if you wanted garanteed safe passage your only choice was the SG. If you had dirty work to do, no-ship.


    I was thinking with the Siona gene spread their "other" powers were less valuble anc clearly those from the scattering did not need Navigators anymore. I think the SG lost its hold on space travel after this invention. There is little mention of them in CHoD that I can recall... What else were they useful for?


    Searching for Duncan Idaho, for one. Providing neutral meeting places (Waff and the Honored Matres), and of course secure banking, communications and shipping.

    They are still a powerfull faction in the Old Empire, they just lost their monopoly. The SG remains the "safe" transportation.


    But the HM used no-ships? Safe to say most of the people of the scattering were transport based in no-ships?


    I was talking about the "Old Empire", the core from which the scattering spread, where all the books are set.
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    Postby SandRider » 20 Mar 2009 12:37

    Freakzilla wrote:
    SwordMaster wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:
    SwordMaster wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:
    SwordMaster wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:It was late in Leto's reign and yes, it was invented in the no-chamber where Hwi was born.

    When RM Anteac lead the Fish Speaker attack on IX, the people and technology were scattered and this was the true begining of The Scattering.


    Interesting point about the true beginning. Safe to say thenby HoD navigators were fairly redundant then?


    No, flipping the switch in the Hieghliner cockpit was not all Guild Navigators were good for. The SG never fully trusted the INM either, even in ships with the INM they still had a navigator present. The Guild practiced business as usually, but a lot of their covert sales were lost to the no-ship.

    In the post-Tyrant Old Empire, if you wanted garanteed safe passage your only choice was the SG. If you had dirty work to do, no-ship.


    I was thinking with the Siona gene spread their "other" powers were less valuble anc clearly those from the scattering did not need Navigators anymore. I think the SG lost its hold on space travel after this invention. There is little mention of them in CHoD that I can recall... What else were they useful for?


    Searching for Duncan Idaho, for one. Providing neutral meeting places (Waff and the Honored Matres), and of course secure banking, communications and shipping.

    They are still a powerfull faction in the Old Empire, they just lost their monopoly. The SG remains the "safe" transportation.


    But the HM used no-ships? Safe to say most of the people of the scattering were transport based in no-ships?


    I was talking about the "Old Empire", the core from which the scattering spread, where all the books are set.


    I don't have anything to add to this discussion,
    I just wanted to contribute to the raising of another quote-ziggurat ...
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    Postby Freakzilla » 20 Mar 2009 12:46

    SandRider wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:
    SwordMaster wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:
    SwordMaster wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:
    SwordMaster wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:It was late in Leto's reign and yes, it was invented in the no-chamber where Hwi was born.

    When RM Anteac lead the Fish Speaker attack on IX, the people and technology were scattered and this was the true begining of The Scattering.


    Interesting point about the true beginning. Safe to say thenby HoD navigators were fairly redundant then?


    No, flipping the switch in the Hieghliner cockpit was not all Guild Navigators were good for. The SG never fully trusted the INM either, even in ships with the INM they still had a navigator present. The Guild practiced business as usually, but a lot of their covert sales were lost to the no-ship.

    In the post-Tyrant Old Empire, if you wanted garanteed safe passage your only choice was the SG. If you had dirty work to do, no-ship.


    I was thinking with the Siona gene spread their "other" powers were less valuble anc clearly those from the scattering did not need Navigators anymore. I think the SG lost its hold on space travel after this invention. There is little mention of them in CHoD that I can recall... What else were they useful for?


    Searching for Duncan Idaho, for one. Providing neutral meeting places (Waff and the Honored Matres), and of course secure banking, communications and shipping.

    They are still a powerfull faction in the Old Empire, they just lost their monopoly. The SG remains the "safe" transportation.


    But the HM used no-ships? Safe to say most of the people of the scattering were transport based in no-ships?


    I was talking about the "Old Empire", the core from which the scattering spread, where all the books are set.


    I don't have anything to add to this discussion,
    I just wanted to contribute to the raising of another quote-ziggurat ...


    :roll:
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    Postby SwordMaster » 20 Mar 2009 12:52

    Freakzilla wrote:
    SwordMaster wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:
    SwordMaster wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:
    SwordMaster wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:It was late in Leto's reign and yes, it was invented in the no-chamber where Hwi was born.

    When RM Anteac lead the Fish Speaker attack on IX, the people and technology were scattered and this was the true begining of The Scattering.


    Interesting point about the true beginning. Safe to say thenby HoD navigators were fairly redundant then?


    No, flipping the switch in the Hieghliner cockpit was not all Guild Navigators were good for. The SG never fully trusted the INM either, even in ships with the INM they still had a navigator present. The Guild practiced business as usually, but a lot of their covert sales were lost to the no-ship.

    In the post-Tyrant Old Empire, if you wanted garanteed safe passage your only choice was the SG. If you had dirty work to do, no-ship.


    I was thinking with the Siona gene spread their "other" powers were less valuble anc clearly those from the scattering did not need Navigators anymore. I think the SG lost its hold on space travel after this invention. There is little mention of them in CHoD that I can recall... What else were they useful for?


    Searching for Duncan Idaho, for one. Providing neutral meeting places (Waff and the Honored Matres), and of course secure banking, communications and shipping.

    They are still a powerfull faction in the Old Empire, they just lost their monopoly. The SG remains the "safe" transportation.


    But the HM used no-ships? Safe to say most of the people of the scattering were transport based in no-ships?


    I was talking about the "Old Empire", the core from which the scattering spread, where all the books are set.


    Ok. The HM were fully No-Ship based though correct?
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    Postby Freakzilla » 20 Mar 2009 13:02

    SwordMaster wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:
    SwordMaster wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:
    SwordMaster wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:
    SwordMaster wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:It was late in Leto's reign and yes, it was invented in the no-chamber where Hwi was born.

    When RM Anteac lead the Fish Speaker attack on IX, the people and technology were scattered and this was the true begining of The Scattering.


    Interesting point about the true beginning. Safe to say thenby HoD navigators were fairly redundant then?


    No, flipping the switch in the Hieghliner cockpit was not all Guild Navigators were good for. The SG never fully trusted the INM either, even in ships with the INM they still had a navigator present. The Guild practiced business as usually, but a lot of their covert sales were lost to the no-ship.

    In the post-Tyrant Old Empire, if you wanted garanteed safe passage your only choice was the SG. If you had dirty work to do, no-ship.


    I was thinking with the Siona gene spread their "other" powers were less valuble anc clearly those from the scattering did not need Navigators anymore. I think the SG lost its hold on space travel after this invention. There is little mention of them in CHoD that I can recall... What else were they useful for?


    Searching for Duncan Idaho, for one. Providing neutral meeting places (Waff and the Honored Matres), and of course secure banking, communications and shipping.

    They are still a powerfull faction in the Old Empire, they just lost their monopoly. The SG remains the "safe" transportation.


    But the HM used no-ships? Safe to say most of the people of the scattering were transport based in no-ships?


    I was talking about the "Old Empire", the core from which the scattering spread, where all the books are set.


    Ok. The HM were fully No-Ship based though correct?


    Correct. The Guild did not expand with The Scattering AFAIK.
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    Re: Who did they build the nav machine for

    Postby semuta » 07 Aug 2009 20:52

    A part of LetoII's legacy was to create people invisible to prescience.
    Before Paul's time, the Navigators were prescient.
    After the Tyrant their abilities are concentrated more upon fold~space than on social observation, primarily because they could not see most people. They could still see Idaho ghola though which is why he vanishes into the No~Ship on Chapterhouse.
    Don't forget that the Guild also 'accidentally' (?) crash a Highliner into Chapterhouse.
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    Re: Who did they build the nav machine for

    Postby SandChigger » 07 Aug 2009 21:54

    semuta wrote:A part of LetoII's legacy was to create people invisible to prescience.

    True. It's one initial leg of the Golden Path.

    Before Paul's time, the Navigators were prescient.

    True. And they were prescient after him as well.

    After the Tyrant their abilities are concentrated more upon fold~space than on social observation, primarily because they could not see most people.

    Their essentially linear abilities were always more concentrated on navigation. And it took time for the Siona Gene to be transmitted through the population.

    They could still see Idaho ghola though which is why he vanishes into the No~Ship on Chapterhouse.

    Which is why the BG kept him on the no-ship, true.

    Don't forget that the Guild also 'accidentally' (?) crash a Highliner into Chapterhouse.

    Mmm ... refresh my memory on this one? :)
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    Re: Who did they build the nav machine for

    Postby loremaster » 08 Aug 2009 08:08

    I think that the Ixians were some of the most driven by Leto's golden path.

    Remember, part of what he wanted to do was challenge people to think in new and creative ways, always looking outwards.
    It was precisely the break from tradition the golden path needed. Leto caused it by decimating spice supply.

    I think it was built primarily FOR the ixians themselves. Navigators colluded. But if i remember rightly there were several technologies the ixians were trying to develop (borrowing tleilaxu techniques for hwi and malky, for one) and that they were all somehow related.... Prescience bestows immunity to prescience, and at/around the same time, the ixians develop both artificial prescience... and artificial immunity to prescience chambers? Coincidence?!?

    Had the ixians managed to develop these two AND leto had put off dying for a few more years, then there would have been a SERIOUS shift of power. Leto's rule was maintained in part by having the guild submissive. Without any need for spice one the technology had developed, the ixians could transport things without running it by leto/the guild first.

    Combine this with the immunity to prescience, it would have meant things could now exist in the universe beyond the god emperors reach.... forgetting of course that he KNEW about the hwi Chamber anyway, and didnt interfere because that was kind of the point..... he WANTED technologies which removed the prescient grasp on humanity.

    So yeah, i think they built it for themselves. Partly as a test of the god emperors real powers, partly as an attempt to topple him, and partly to gain power amongst third parties, who would pay dearly to be beyond the GE's vision (the BG? Tleilaxu? etc)
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    Re: Who did they build the nav machine for

    Postby Rakis » 09 Aug 2009 22:02

    Quote:
    Don't forget that the Guild also 'accidentally' (?) crash a Highliner into Chapterhouse.

    Mmm ... refresh my memory on this one?


    Isn't that from KJA's books? You sure about Chapterhouse?
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    Re: Who did they build the nav machine for

    Postby Freakzilla » 09 Aug 2009 22:07

    Rakis wrote:
    Quote:
    Don't forget that the Guild also 'accidentally' (?) crash a Highliner into Chapterhouse.

    Mmm ... refresh my memory on this one?


    Isn't that from KJA's books? You sure about Chapterhouse?


    NEVER did a heighliner crash in one of FH's books.
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    Re: Who did they build the nav machine for

    Postby Rakis » 09 Aug 2009 22:09

    Freakzilla wrote:
    Rakis wrote:
    Quote:
    Don't forget that the Guild also 'accidentally' (?) crash a Highliner into Chapterhouse.

    Mmm ... refresh my memory on this one?


    Isn't that from KJA's books? You sure about Chapterhouse?


    NEVER did a heighliner crash in one of FH's books.


    I thought so :)
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    Re: Who did they build the nav machine for

    Postby Omphalos » 09 Aug 2009 23:22

    I think that the DE has legends of lost heighliners.
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    Re: Who did they build the nav machine for

    Postby SandChigger » 10 Aug 2009 01:05

    Thanks for confirming that, Freak.

    And Chapterhouse Planet was NOT Wallach IX. Sheesh. :roll:
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    Re: Who did they build the nav machine for

    Postby Freakzilla » 10 Aug 2009 07:41

    I think Wallach IX was destroyed by Honord Matres in either HoD or CH:D. Either Tarazza or Odrade lists the BG planets they've lost...

    The Guild's safety record was one of it's selling points, heighliners didn't crash.
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    Re: Who did they build the nav machine for

    Postby Hunchback Jack » 11 Aug 2009 01:57

    House Corrino, page 323 of the US PB edition.

    I Googled it. Have no recollection of the actual plot of this book.

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    Re: Who did they build the nav machine for

    Postby loremaster » 11 Aug 2009 04:09

    Freakzilla wrote:I think Wallach IX was destroyed by Honord Matres in either HoD or CH:D. Either Tarazza or Odrade lists the BG planets they've lost...

    The Guild's safety record was one of it's selling points, heighliners didn't crash.


    It's hard to crash if you always remain beyond the effective gravity well of a planet.

    Even more so if you have a prescient driver to watch for meteors etc.
    The HLP hasnt released Frank's notes yet, Brian hasn't got the handwriting quite right!
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