MALKY WAS THE IXIAN KWISATZ HADERACH!

    The people and their technology

Moderators: Omphalos, Freakzilla, ᴶᵛᵀᴬ

the rev
Posts: 16
Joined: 22 Feb 2019 17:35

Re: MALKY WAS THE IXIAN KWISATZ HADERACH!

Postby the rev » 21 Mar 2019 03:26

Bellonda thinks it's relevant.


But that's Bellonda's flaw right? She's stuck in the old thought patterns, still thinking about past mistakes. We know Duncan is a KH but he's so much more then Bellonda could have imagined, a super sexy sex machine ghola. It's kind of funny how Chapterhouse and Heretics are 'updated'. Frank trying to incorporate 80's sexual mores and a more female viewpoint.

georgiedenbro
Posts: 848
Joined: 11 Jun 2014 13:56
Location: Montreal, Canada

Re: MALKY WAS THE IXIAN KWISATZ HADERACH!

Postby georgiedenbro » 21 Mar 2019 12:26

the rev wrote:You're thinking of the bit I talked about earlier about the Tleilax giving them the technology.


Does it specifically say this in GEoD? Do you have a quote for it? I don't remember ever noting that the BT gave anyone their secrets for how to do anything.

That's all it is. For whatever reason in this book the Tleilax are fools.


I don't think that's a safe assumption. But I do think they go to some lengths to often appear as fools, to throw Leto II off.

I wonder at what point Frank decided they would be who they become in the last two books. I believe he conceived them as a religious order from the beginning. I'd think the rest of it wasn't conceived until he was working on Heretics.


They were definitely not a religious order as of DM, as Scytale specifically says that the BT have learned a lot from Paul's theocracy and were going to take steps in their own society to create methods of control along those lines. Their society strikes me as being roughly like that found in some of FH's other books, like Destination: Void or even The Dragon Under the Sea, which involves massive government infrastructure including a propaganda department and other dystopian features, that will use any and all methods to control the populace. I don't think we get much detail about BT society during GEoD, and it's not until the last two books where we see the long-term results of them implementing the control mechanisms Scytale alluded to in DM. There is every reason to believe that the religion was instituted as a propaganda tool - basically a sham - but it's unclear to me whether by the time of Heretics that some were still aware of that, or whether they had lost control of their own mechanism and had since drunk the Kool Aid. I guess the most effective theocracy is one where the leaders really believe in it and lose sight of where it came from.

I don't see any of their 'dirty' meddling in Hwee or Malky. They are much too human and honest. Very different then Scytale's plotting, the wheels within wheels and betrayals and deceptions.


You don't think that the mere existence of Hwi is completely manipulative? She doesn't have to be in on it consciously to be part of the plan, just like Hayt in DM wasn't consciously in on Scytale's plan (although he deduced it).
"um-m-m-ah-h-h-hm-m-m-m!"

the rev
Posts: 16
Joined: 22 Feb 2019 17:35

Re: MALKY WAS THE IXIAN KWISATZ HADERACH!

Postby the rev » 22 Mar 2019 06:07

Does it specifically say this in GEoD? Do you have a quote for it? I don't remember ever noting that the BT gave anyone their secrets for how to do anything.


The quote is pasted a few posts back. It's why we've been discussing this and it's the only evidence in the book to support your point of view. Of course the Tleilax wouldn't loan the Ixians an axlotl tank for free or give them the secret of how they work. (I googled axolotl tank and it is a thing you can buy! Which shows how far the books came full circle. The original idea would be tech we're working on now, I think I'll make a post in the Tleilax thread about how far that has come. Replacing an arm or a leg or a kidney. The brilliant part is using a placenta to keep the host from rejecting the foreign DNA.)

You don't think that the mere existence of Hwi is completely manipulative?


Everyone behaves manipulatively in these books, it's not a trademark of one specific group. I'm talking about the specific taint that the Tleilax leave on their tools.

User avatar
Freakzilla
Lead Singer and Driver of the Winnebego
Posts: 18257
Joined: 05 Feb 2008 01:27
Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA
Contact:

Re: MALKY WAS THE IXIAN KWISATZ HADERACH!

Postby Freakzilla » 22 Mar 2019 16:49

"Will you tell me about Hwi?"
"I think you already know it."
"I want to hear it from you," Leto said. "Did you get help from the Tleilaxu?"
"They gave us knowledge, nothing more. Everything else we did for ourselves."
"I thought it was not the Tleilaxus' doing."

~GEoD
Image
Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
~Pink Snowman

User avatar
Freakzilla
Lead Singer and Driver of the Winnebego
Posts: 18257
Joined: 05 Feb 2008 01:27
Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA
Contact:

Re: MALKY WAS THE IXIAN KWISATZ HADERACH!

Postby Freakzilla » 22 Mar 2019 16:53

Of course they didn't give them a tank! You don't need an Axlotl Tank to make a clone, I suspect that the knowledge given to Ix by the Tleilaxu was how to make a negative of Malky's genes. That was all they needed.
Image
Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
~Pink Snowman

User avatar
Freakzilla
Lead Singer and Driver of the Winnebego
Posts: 18257
Joined: 05 Feb 2008 01:27
Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA
Contact:

Re: MALKY WAS THE IXIAN KWISATZ HADERACH!

Postby Freakzilla » 22 Mar 2019 16:55

georgiedenbro wrote:They were definitely not a religious order as of DM..


FH retconed that by making the BT religion secret. Of course they wouldn't reveal their religion to The BG and the Guild.
Image
Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
~Pink Snowman

the rev
Posts: 16
Joined: 22 Feb 2019 17:35

Re: MALKY WAS THE IXIAN KWISATZ HADERACH!

Postby the rev » 24 Mar 2019 15:46

Of course they didn't give them a tank! You don't need an Axlotl Tank to make a clone, I suspect that the knowledge given to Ix by the Tleilaxu was how to make a negative of Malky's genes. That was all they needed.


With Tleilax tech and Ixian marketing skills think of the possibilities! It would revolutionize the chicken nugget and the fast food industry. One tank for every franchise.

I've wondered about that passage, why it's necessary for the Tleilax to be involved, cloning is simple stuff. A couple techs, a few hundred 'advisors', meaning a special forces assault troops, and you're good to go. I guess because it involves ultimate forms of good and evil, etc, you have to find a specialist..

make a negative of Malky's genes


That's kind of funny too. I've got to remember to ask a geneticist. 'Say you've got a really good sheep and you want a really bad sheep. You can just reverse it's gene flow right?' You get a similar idea in The Jesus Incident I think, you've got The Ship, God, so he has to have the Devil for some reason so at the end there's the revelation. The geneticist Lewis was Satan. It should be a big deal, it could be a major plot point, but I'm pretty sure Lewis starts laughing and disappears. I haven't read those in a while. I remember really enjoying them when I was younger but some of my memories make me cringe a bit. Should probably re-read them anyway Frank's take on religion is worth it. Flattery was a decent character. The villain of Destination:Void gets upgraded to Doubting Thomas in the Garden of Eden. And the psychedelic floating mushroom spore hot air balloons. Now I remember why I liked those books..

Would creating Malky involve gene something something? Or are evil people run of the mill but creating a really good person you've got to do some high level genetic manipulation? Maybe a few thousand years back, when the Ixians started down this path, they consulted the Tleilax and got the info they needed on good/evil archetypes, breeding, cloning, and gene manipulation. Then they started their breeding program free of Tleilax interference? It's ambiguous. Good/evil is wrong in the first place, all they need is to select for empathy. Which brings back the question how is Malky evil? We might be taking this stuff too literal..

User avatar
Freakzilla
Lead Singer and Driver of the Winnebego
Posts: 18257
Joined: 05 Feb 2008 01:27
Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA
Contact:

Re: MALKY WAS THE IXIAN KWISATZ HADERACH!

Postby Freakzilla » 25 Mar 2019 09:05

I'm not so sure that Malky was pure evil and Hwi was pure good so much as that Malky was a favored companion of Leto and a female clone of him would have to have opposite qualities, kinda going along with the whole male/female-giver/taker thing.
Image
Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
~Pink Snowman

georgiedenbro
Posts: 848
Joined: 11 Jun 2014 13:56
Location: Montreal, Canada

Re: MALKY WAS THE IXIAN KWISATZ HADERACH!

Postby georgiedenbro » 26 Mar 2019 11:43

Freakzilla wrote:I'm not so sure that Malky was pure evil and Hwi was pure good so much as that Malky was a favored companion of Leto and a female clone of him would have to have opposite qualities, kinda going along with the whole male/female-giver/taker thing.


I agree with this point, actually.

The main reason my head canon suggested to me that the BT were behind Hwi is that the notion that she could undermine the God Emperor's invulnerability strikes me as being a BT type of rationale, as it was with Hayt. How would the Ixians ever figure out how to pull a stunt like this? Or should we conclude that it was Malky's plan from start to finish, and that it wasn't so much the Ixians, but he, personally, who undid Leto II?

As far as FH retconning the BT religion, I guess it's possible. I never thought of that. Isn't there a quote in DM where Scytale annouces outright that they will try to implement Paul's religion control system? It would be really easy over the course of centuries and millenia to re-write history and teach their BT brethren that this had been their society forever.

I'll definitely have to re-read GEoD to try to make sense of this Ixian/BT business.
"um-m-m-ah-h-h-hm-m-m-m!"

the rev
Posts: 16
Joined: 22 Feb 2019 17:35

Re: MALKY WAS THE IXIAN KWISATZ HADERACH!

Postby the rev » 29 Mar 2019 18:00

'm not so sure that Malky was pure evil and Hwi was pure good so much as that Malky was a favored companion of Leto and a female clone of him would have to have opposite qualities, kinda going along with the whole male/female-giver/taker thing.


Yeah that's a good way of putting it. I was joking around a bit but I like the idea of taking a 'negative' of a person. The problem with a lot of this stuff, Leto really is a God, he knows good and evil. When Frank was writing DNA was wide open, few people understood how far and how quickly the technology would advance. The idea of using DNA to replicate life forms and the idea of prescience were both far out concepts, look how far the one has come. Although prescience has come quite a ways as well, look at how good your weather forecast is for eight hours or a day from now. They got it wrong in the last election though.

I think empathy is the right path to look down, that's what 'good' is for mammals. Another thing we've studied and understand a lot better then in Frank's time. Genes for empathy, genes for hostility. Malky is selfish, Hwi is not.